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View Poll Results: Your favorite?
Ernst Happel Stadion, Wien 54 18.56%
Sankt Jakob Park, Basel 81 27.84%
Wörthersee Arena, Klagenfurt 62 21.31%
Tivoli Stadion, Innsbruck 12 4.12%
Stade de Genève, Genève 13 4.47%
Stade de Suisse Wankdorf, Bern 37 12.71%
Stadion Salzburg, Salzburg 9 3.09%
Letzigrund, Zurich 23 7.90%
Voters: 291. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 27th, 2008, 05:28 PM   #361
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Very schön stadium
What would be the capacity with a full 3rd tier?
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Old February 27th, 2008, 08:03 PM   #362
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Very schön stadium
What would be the capacity with a full 3rd tier?
For St. Jakob Park, I would estimate around 50`000 to 55`000.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 08:04 PM   #363
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Basel is a perfect example of what to not do!!

I remember this stadium was so beautiful-> simple design with 2 levels!

Now it looks so awful because euro is coming and they certainly make the upgrade so quickly that the result is a catastroph!!!

pfffffffff
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Old February 27th, 2008, 08:48 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
Basel is a perfect example of what to not do!!

I remember this stadium was so beautiful-> simple design with 2 levels!

Now it looks so awful because euro is coming and they certainly make the upgrade so quickly that the result is a catastroph!!!

pfffffffff
dont worry its only a temporary thing!
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Old February 27th, 2008, 08:57 PM   #365
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Are you sure?
I thought the same but according to Wikipedia they will only widen the space for each seat after the Euro and the new cap will be 38k.

I generally like the stadium, especially at night, but this facade is just ugly...
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Old February 27th, 2008, 09:01 PM   #366
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oh well i was under the intention it was to be temporary too! anyone local able to offer any info?i mean it looks like a temporary design with lots of visible steel and a cheap looking design, as was said it was a lovely stadium but those pillars just ruin it!
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Old February 27th, 2008, 09:06 PM   #367
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As i know St. Jakob isn't temporary
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Old February 27th, 2008, 09:25 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
cold boring stadiums sorry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
Basel is a perfect example of what to not do!!

I remember this stadium was so beautiful-> simple design with 2 levels!

Now it looks so awful because euro is coming and they certainly make the upgrade so quickly that the result is a catastroph!!!

pfffffffff
I don't get it. If you're referring to the whole lot as boring than why single out Basel for having a unique feature? If you are calling the others boring due to the simple geometry then shouldn't Basel stand out as having more character? And are you at least giving them credit that the resulting structures are a) complete with modern amenities, b) fit the long-term scale of need for facilities in their communities, and c) may have character features we don't see from distant images?

Not everything can be a dynamic 50k seater with retractable roof, and many have very limited budgets to work with.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 10:04 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpioe View Post

Are you sure?
I thought the same but according to Wikipedia they will only widen the space for each seat after the Euro and the new cap will be 38k.

I generally like the stadium, especially at night, but this facade is just ugly...

How can an architect could imagine such horriiiible thing?? ??

If i was the mayor i will recomend the destruction of this master piece of disaster!!


Gunnerjacket-> Stop please everytime refers to 50k arena retractable!!

The most beautiful stadium isn't a 50k arena in Lille !!!

I prefer far Wembley.
But there are 20k - 30k stadiums which are MUCH better than 50-60k stadiums! Numbers don't matter at all it's a question of design.
Good design does'nt mean automatically much money.

Bern Stadia is beautiful for example. Stop money question!

Look at Lille old project of renovation of their ancient stadium before it was canceled due to new project:



the cost was 60 million euros for a 33k seater and IMO the design was better than the new one (and Basel too ) !
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Last edited by Axelferis; February 27th, 2008 at 10:11 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 10:12 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by www.sercan.de View Post
As i know St. Jakob isn't temporary
Basel is not temporary, they just compress the capacity about 4000 seaters more during the Euro, but the 3rd stand will stay, after the Euro the St. Jakob Park would have a capacity around 38`000 to 40`000 places.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 10:50 PM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canarywondergod View Post
oh well i was under the intention it was to be temporary too! anyone local able to offer any info?i mean it looks like a temporary design with lots of visible steel and a cheap looking design, as was said it was a lovely stadium but those pillars just ruin it!
It's not temporary. The 3rd tier will stay. The capacity for Euro 2008 will be 42'500. After Euro they will reduce it to 38'500 by simply creating more space between the seats (more comfortable seating). The stadium itself will stay the same.

Originally, Bern was supposed to become the 40'000+ stadium, that's why it's called "Stade de Suisse", kind of a "national stadium". National stadium in Switzerland means mostly hosting the Cup Final. National team games anyway are always hosted in different cities in this federalistic country. The old Wankdorf stadium was hosting the Cup Final for ages, and also the Final of World Cup 1954.

But for the new stadium, Bern was not able to finance the 10'000+ additional capacity. They asked the Swiss Football Federation, but they also didn't have enough money for it. Basel in return found a solution - they are building this small high-rise next to the stadium. The revenues from this are financing the 3rd tier of the stadium. That's why the Opening game, Quarter Final and Semi-Final of Euro 2008 will be in Basel, not Bern. Also the popular Swiss Cup-Finals are now frequently in Basel, and in the future, the games of the National Team with high-interest (eg. against neighbouring countries, Brasil, England etc.).

It also makes more sense, because FC Basel draws the biggest crowd in Swiss football. Official average League attendance is currently 23'500. This is the number of people in the stadium - average number of sold tickets per league game is about 29'000. Number of sold annual season-tickets for 2008 are 22'500. This is a very high number for Switzerland. Arithmetically, every 7th citizen of Basel has a season-ticket for FCB, and prices are not really cheap. Between 2001 and 2005 the attendance was even a few thousand more.

As I wrote in the Swiss Football League Stadia - Thread, the construction of the new St.Jakob-Park in 1999/2000 was kind of a playground for local architects Herzog/DeMeuron, before they went on to build Allianz Arena and Beijing Olympic Stadium. The extension of the St.Jakob-Park (3rd tier) in 2005-2006 was then the opportunity for them to adapt an idea they had realised in Munich - the illumination. In the Allianz Arena, it's all around, in Basel it's only on one side, the side of the 3rd tier - one can see it from the highway/train and it looks like this when the National Team is playing:

http://www.basel.ch/pictures/full/18...w.basel.ch.jpg

When FC Basel is playing, it's red & blue.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 11:25 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
How can an architect could imagine such horriiiible thing?? ??

If i was the mayor i will recomend the destruction of this master piece of disaster!!
And pay a new one from your own pocket-money?

Btw., Swiss cities don't have any mayors....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
But there are 20k - 30k stadiums which are MUCH better than 50-60k stadiums! Numbers don't matter at all it's a question of design.
Good design does'nt mean automatically much money.

Bern Stadia is beautiful for example. Stop money question!
You change your opinion quite frequently. A few hours ago, all Euro-stadiums were cold and boring. Now Bern is beautiful all of a sudden?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
the cost was 60 million euros for a 33k seater and IMO the design was better than the new one (and Basel too ) !
60 million Euros is quite a lot, that's nearly 100 million CHF. I don't think that any stadium in Switzerland has been that expensive (stadium projects as a whole have, but that included also shopping centers, gyms, residencies, etc.).

In Switzerland, you have additionally to account for the fact, that the wages (for construction workers, architects, engineers etc.) are among the highest in the world. Same thing can be said about the real estate prices. Additionally, environmental standards are very strict, and materials used always of high quality and durability. These factors make every building project much more expensive.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #373
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Gunnerjacket-> Stop please everytime refers to 50k arena retractable!!

The most beautiful stadium isn't a 50k arena in Lille !!!

I prefer far Wembley.
Fair enough. Presumptuous of me to use the "50k & roofed" angle, but given the precedence of your "boring" line with regard to small stadiums in smaller countries I'm clearly missing your definition of what a small, non-boring stadium is like.

Quote:
But there are 20k - 30k stadiums which are MUCH better than 50-60k stadiums! Numbers don't matter at all it's a question of design.
Good design does'nt mean automatically much money.

Bern Stadia is beautiful for example. Stop money question!
Obviously money has SOMETHING to do with it because adding extra architectural detailing, using unique materials and/or developing a unique design requires cost above and beyond minimal expenses. Considering the post above suggests Basel required the construction of a residential/commercial building to help pay the cost of the stadium expansion, clearly efficiency is a factor in the design process.

Yes, there is more to extracting beauty than through more money, but all I'm saying is we can't assume every project is initiated with the idea of creating the most artful and unique design, and typically smaller stadiums are indicative of a project lacking vast amounts of funds. That's all. Maybe you find them boring, but having only seen the pictures and reading about them I can't fault them too much.

Let's also not forget these facilities will be judged on their functionality first and foremost and won't have the global stage of, say, Stanley Park, to necessitate too much architectural ambition.

Quote:
Look at Lille old project of renovation of their ancient stadium before it was canceled due to new project:

the cost was 60 million euros for a 33k seater and IMO the design was better than the new one (and Basel too )!
Very nice.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:38 AM   #374
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Railcity--> Oh.. Switzerland has not enough money for their stadiums?? I used to think it was a rich country. It seems not be that one in fact

Turkey,Ukrainia,Poland have more money apparently.Because of their so beautiful stadiums!
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Old February 28th, 2008, 06:09 AM   #375
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my favorite stadium is the letzigrund in zurich. It's the most unique stadium there, the exterior makes it look like an old classic stadium, unlike the other ones which are all one bland colour pretty much. And the interior is nice all one colour looks organised, bar vienna's stadium because it was built some 70something years ago, all these stadiums were built very recently and the letzigrund i feel has the best design
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Old February 28th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #376
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Railcity--> Oh.. Switzerland has not enough money for their stadiums?? I used to think it was a rich country. It seems not be that one in fact

Turkey,Ukrainia,Poland have more money apparently.Because of their so beautiful stadiums!
One of the most important reasons why Switzerland is a rich country is the economical and efficient use of resources. The state is not spending any dime in over-sized prestige projects. This leads also to lower taxes which means more money is left for private investments. This is not only attractive for the Swiss, but also for some foreign companies, so they move from countries with over-sized prestige projects to Switzerland.

Another factor is federalism, decentralisation, direct democracy. Switzerland doesn't have an Eiffel Tower, but nearly every village has an indoor swimming pool. There are no really powerful people or institutions in Switzerland, money is dispersed around the country and among the people. Through direct democracy, people can vote on what the money is spent for. The building of a new school nearly always gets a "yes" in the public votes. Prestigious projects which cost a lot of money and serve only a select group (eg. football fans) have a lower acceptance. Recent votes in several cities have shown, that the citizens are generally positive about football stadiums and they are ready to provide eg. public real estate or other planning support for it. But they are not ready to spend (much) money from the state budget.

The only exception is the new Letzigrund stadium in Zurich. This one is purely financed by the city budget. But the citizens approved this project and financing at the ballots only because it is a multifunctional stadium for leisure sports, athletics, the annual "worldclass" meeting, concerts, events, football etc. and serves also as a small park and meeting place for the neighbourhood - it has a restaurant/café and is open everyday for the population. Had it been purely a stadium for professional football, voters wouldn't have approved the money.

As for Turkey, Poland, Ukraine, they all have a lot to catch up economically, and therefore have thanks to their increased openness to the global economy a high rate of growth which is beneficial for new projects. Additionally, there are also a few other special factors that don't account for Switzerland.

In the Ukraine, for example, there is a huge income disparity in the population. There are a few very rich people and these people then help to build a prestigious project like a stadium in order to buy support & influence in politics & the population or to "clean their conscience". To buy influence in politics is a good investment in such a country whereas in Switzerland for example, if you are interested in making a lot of money, you focus on your business, politics is a waste of time - because political power is so much dispersed, decentralised and democratisized, so it is much more difficult or even impossible to buy political influence with money.

As for Turkey, I have not enough information. Maybe partially there are also some aspects like in Ukraine. But more importantly, there is of course the question of pure size of the population. Istanbul alone has 10 million inhabitans - so it's a little bit easier to fill a big stadium.

As for Poland, investment support from other European states/EU might play a role as well (as it did for Portugal or Greece).
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Old February 28th, 2008, 11:22 AM   #377
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I like the EURO2008 satdiums. Its hard to design different 30.000 stadiums
Mainly its only 1 tier like Karasaiki.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:38 PM   #378
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These stadiums are a let down after the great stadiums of Euro 04, these are substandard compared to them
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Old February 29th, 2008, 03:57 PM   #379
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These stadiums are a shame for switzlerland ans austria. I don't want to mention euro 04, it was great. But after euro 2000 this one will be another tournament with bad stadiums. Do they have money problems??
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Old February 29th, 2008, 05:02 PM   #380
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Quote:
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These stadiums are a let down after the great stadiums of Euro 04, these are substandard compared to them
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These stadiums are a shame for switzlerland ans austria. I don't want to mention euro 04, it was great. But after euro 2000 this one will be another tournament with bad stadiums.
How are these a "let down" or bad? I'm not saying you're wrong but there seems to be a trend with people seeing pictures of simple, smaller stadiums and immediately labeling them bad! I don't get it and seriously want to know the reasons for such conclusions, especially when looking at a group of stadiums.

Neither country has the demand for multiple large stadiums nor the desire to spend far more lavishly than they need. Portugal's efforts are to be lauded but by the same token it could easily be argued they overbuilt (capacity wise), that 4 of their new structures are cookie cutter designs and the public funds invested in their stadiums could've been better spent elsewhere. Apart from the top 5 (or so) teams in the Portuguese Superliga everyone draws under 8k, which means it's not as if these clubs are rife with funds or great demands for elaborate designs. Overall avg. attendance has only increased by about 2.5k compared to 2000, so I'm unsure if we can affirm the results have truly paid off financially.

Thus, considering the top leagues in Austria and Switzerland average under 10k per game save for about 6 clubs combined, the stadiums they've constructed will more than suit the needs of the professional teams and now have complete modern conveniences. What they lack in sex-appeal appears made up for in functionality and keeping the atmosphere of the interior space, which I find most important.

All right, I'm done ranting.
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