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Old July 20th, 2009, 03:27 PM   #81
JustinB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
That's just bull shit from the transit agency so that they can get more funding. They aren't in charge of building the Evergreen Line, the Provincial Government is. Besides, the project is already under Environmental Studies and the detailed design of the project is generally complete, with public consultations occurring later this year.
Sure, assuming the provinces covers Translink's portion if Translink does actually pull the funding. It seems to me, that your transit agency has quite a serious funding issue that needs to be addressed.

Quote:
We don't question Light Rail technology... which obviously has it advantages over ART. It's more like the type of technology chosen should be studied in a case by case basis. The Broadway corridor must be built SkyTrain period.
I never brought up the Broadway corridor, even though I am very suspicious of spending 4 Billion on an underground line that will primarily serve students using the heavily subsidized U-pass.
Regardless of what is choosen, LRV's are going to be a bigger revenue source than ART.

Quote:
Sure. Either way though, for the Honolulu project, ART might be worth taking a good look at because they want an automated, attractive, fully segregated system and it seems that Oahu planners are favoring ART.
Beats the alternative that was proposed for the corridor.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 09:50 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Sure, assuming the provinces covers Translink's portion if Translink does actually pull the funding. It seems to me, that your transit agency has quite a serious funding issue that needs to be addressed.
That's exactly how TransLink wants to portray it just to get more funding. What they haven't done is cut budget of the administration. It's okay, they are planning to introduce a new tax and/or raise transit fares, which are one of the lowest in the country. Thank god at least TransLink hasn't proposed shutting down the SkyTrain though ahem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I never brought up the Broadway corridor, even though I am very suspicious of spending 4 Billion on an underground line that will primarily serve students using the heavily subsidized U-pass.
The main use on the 99 B-Line exists between South Granville, Cambie, and Broadway STN and not to UBC.

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Regardless of what is choosen, LRV's are going to be a bigger revenue source than ART.
Yeah sure when ART will attract more people using the system.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 07:44 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
That's exactly how TransLink wants to portray it just to get more funding. What they haven't done is cut budget of the administration. It's okay, they are planning to introduce a new tax and/or raise transit fares, which are one of the lowest in the country. Thank god at least TransLink hasn't proposed shutting down the SkyTrain though ahem.
I recall the TTC having a similar funding crisis not too long ago, perhaps within the last 2 years. They were even suggesting to shut down one subway line.


Quote:
The main use on the 99 B-Line exists between South Granville, Cambie, and Broadway STN and not to UBC.
Precisely. Of course, what would he know? He hasn't even seen the area, just some maps and aerial photos.



Quote:
Yeah sure when ART will attract more people using the system.
What he doesn't understand is how speed is so much more important in this region to attract riders. At the same time, there also needs to be balance between the number of stations/convenience and speed. And the stations that are being proposed do just that.




FYI, JustinB it wouldn't cost $4-billion....it would cost $2.8-billion. And quite worth it when ridership could be 200,000/day by the time it opens.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 06:09 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
That's exactly how TransLink wants to portray it just to get more funding. What they haven't done is cut budget of the administration. It's okay, they are planning to introduce a new tax and/or raise transit fares, which are one of the lowest in the country.
Cutting administration will close a 450Million gap?
The fares range from $2.50 to 3.75. That is one of the highest in the country.
And you're going to raise it again. I do not know the tax situation in the region, but doesn't Translink already collect a portion of the gas tax?

Quote:
Thank god at least TransLink hasn't proposed shutting down the SkyTrain though ahem.
Yeah, they are only cutting the Evergreen Line, and built a stripped down automated metro. And are 450 Million in debt. The service cuts come after the Olympics.
The funding crisis that occurred was more of a ideological battle in which a bunch of right-wing councillors wanted to give the mayor a "black eye". They succeed in temporarily blocking a new tax that would have paid for city services including the TTC.

Quote:
Yeah sure when ART will attract more people using the system.
That is debatable. ART has the same capacity as LRT running in the same environment(grade seperated, elevated, etc) at 3 times the price. Put LRT in the same environment, and it will attract riders. Probably more, since you might even run at the surface for portions of it's route. Fact remains, the transport solution most cities choose is LRT. Why? Because it's cheaper, and versatile.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 08:53 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Cutting administration will close a 450Million gap?
That's the ideal amount they want to be able to get... I'm saying TransLink hasn't used all the ways of cutting their budget without reducing transit service, but instead, cries for more funding. Every ministry is cutting back on administration before cutting services, why shouldn't TransLink do the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
The fares range from $2.50 to 3.75.

For a three zone fare, compare That is one of the highest in the country.
Yeah sure, but if you were to travel from Downtown Toronto to York, how much is that?

I should clarify; fare raises equates to monthly passes which are generally pretty cheap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I do not know the tax situation in the region, but doesn't Translink already collect a portion of the gas tax?
The regional gas tax, not the carbon tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Yeah, they are only cutting the Evergreen Line, and built a stripped down automated metro. And are 450 Million in debt. The service cuts come after the Olympics.
They aren't cutting it because they have no power. No matter how people think TransLink is privatized, it's still under the Provincial Government and they will have no choice but to cough the money out. They aren't $450 million in debt, they want $450 million annually to continue achieving all of the plans up to 2040. Like TTC's case, TransLink is just crying for money because they don't want to cut their own budget first. I have to say TransLink did a great job in marketing though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
That is debatable. ART has the same capacity as LRT running in the same environment(grade seperated, elevated, etc) at 3 times the price. Put LRT in the same environment, and it will attract riders. Probably more, since you might even run at the surface for portions of it's route. Fact remains, the transport solution most cities choose is LRT. Why? Because it's cheaper, and versatile.
But like I said, in the case of the Broadway Corridor, LRT won't have any major advantages over ART other than the price because of the transfers, the requirement of one more OMC, the lack of room for further expansion, etc. I can totally understand why other cities choose LRT and I'm not saying ART is superior over anything. In fact, I'm glad Seattle's Metro is based on LRT instead of HRT.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 11:38 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
That is debatable. ART has the same capacity as LRT running in the same environment(grade seperated, elevated, etc) at 3 times the price.
Either that is poorly stated or it is simply not true. ALRT and LRT costs will be similar if they are operating in a similar environment. For example, an elevated LRT will be a similar cost to an elevated ALRT. You are correct that LRT is more flexible though allowing it to be run on at grade non-separated right-of-ways which does reduce costs. However, if the majority of the system is planned to be grade separated anyway, there is little or no advantage of LRT.

If significant tunnelling is involved, LRT can be more expensive as the overhead power pickup can require larger, more expensive tunnels and stations as opposed to third rail used in ALRT.

The advantage of ALRT is that the operating costs do not increase much as the frequency of trains increases thus trains can be run cost effectively at lower headways thus smaller and less costly elevated and underground stations can be built.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 06:56 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raccc View Post
Either that is poorly stated or it is simply not true. ALRT and LRT costs will be similar if they are operating in a similar environment. For example, an elevated LRT will be a similar cost to an elevated ALRT. You are correct that LRT is more flexible though allowing it to be run on at grade non-separated right-of-ways which does reduce costs. However, if the majority of the system is planned to be grade separated anyway, there is little or no advantage of LRT.

If significant tunnelling is involved, LRT can be more expensive as the overhead power pickup can require larger, more expensive tunnels and stations as opposed to third rail used in ALRT.

The advantage of ALRT is that the operating costs do not increase much as the frequency of trains increases thus trains can be run cost effectively at lower headways thus smaller and less costly elevated and underground stations can be built.
Similarly, the price tag of the Evergreen Line as ALRT is $1.4-billion while the LRT option is $1.3-billion. A minimal cost difference. Why? The LRT option requires just about the same amount as elevated guideway and tunnel as ALRT would.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 07:28 PM   #88
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The entire route will be elevated with trains running approx every 3min at peak hrs.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 04:54 AM   #89
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^ the brilliance of automatic systems, high frequencies.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 04:58 AM   #90
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How will it be financed?
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 11:28 AM   #91
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Thank goodness this thread turned back to Honolulu.

I was just there a few months ago. Great bus system. Super cheap to use. But most tourists (except the Japanese) took the shuttle buses.

It would be nice if this train went to Waikiki from the get-go.

I wonder if it would have to go underground.

If anyone wants more info, you can go here: http://honolulutransit.org/video/

good video on the project.

It will be funded by a 0.5% Sales Tax and 1.2B$ from the Feds. Total cost is 4.3B$.

For running the system, Farebox recovery is supposed to be 30% and the remaining will be received from the general road coffers.

Interestingly, they're building in phases from the outskirts in, terminating at Ala Moana.

80% of people polled in Oahu are in favor of elevated rail.

Last edited by bluemeansgo; July 23rd, 2009 at 12:09 PM.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 07:43 PM   #92
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The plan is to continue the elevated track into Waikiki as well as U of H much later. Believe the hold up is money among other things. Not an expert, but I don't think there has ever been any thought to running it underground. The "rock" is nothing more than an extremely porous coral and would be well below the (salt) water table.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 09:14 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
I wonder if it would have to go underground.
When in doubt, use the website to find what you need: http://honolulutransit.org/library/f...dix_a_1108.pdf

EIX Appendix A Conceptual Alignment, Plans and Profiles show nothing about underground. It's all elevated straight through the city centre
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Old January 23rd, 2010, 04:53 PM   #94
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A recent news article at railway-technology.com talks about the 21-mile elevated rail line to enter service in 2012 already.

That's fast, but I suspect millions of tourists would be more than thankful for a short extension from Ala Moana to Waikiki.
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Old January 24th, 2010, 04:48 PM   #95
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Hawaii's environmental law may be used to block planned rail line like it did Superferry
23 January 2010

HONOLULU (AP) - The same strict environmental law that sank Hawaii's island-hopping ferry service may also be used to derail its train.

Both the Hawaii Superferry and Honolulu's planned 20-mile commuter rail had to comply with a state law requiring a broad study of how the projects could damage the islands' fragile environment. Both projects ran into obstacles with the law, which Gov. Linda Lingle may use to stop rail construction from starting.

Lingle, who has the power to reject the environmental study, hosted a forum critical of the elevated rail plan this week to highlight concerns about its $5.4 billion cost and the aesthetics of building a concrete strip across Honolulu's skyline view of the mountains and ocean.

"People might perceive it to be a problem with the law, but in my view it's a problem of applicants and agencies not doing it right in the first place," said Denise Antolini, director for the environmental law program at the University of Hawaii.

While the environmental review law is the common thread connecting the ferry and rail, how it's used in each case is quite different.

Courts ruled that Lingle's administration should have required an environmental impact statement for the Superferry before giving it the go-ahead, a decision that eventually resulted in the ferry company filing for bankruptcy last May.

The rail has gone through the environmental process, but its opponents argue that the review neglected consideration of its high cost and the possibility of street-level service.

Lingle objects to the suggestion that the projects are similar.

"This is a silly comparison with no basis in reality," Lingle said at the American Institute of Architects' forum Monday.

The rail's backers disagree because it could fail depending on Lingle's decision, which is exactly what happened to the Superferry, said Honolulu Managing Director Kirk Caldwell.

"She's playing a game of walking along the edge of a cliff, and the whole project could fall over it and die," Caldwell said. "It's the political decisions of the governor that would be to blame."

The rail system's environmental study is in the final stages of review by the Federal Transit Administration. It could reach Lingle in about two months, Caldwell said.

The architects group seeking changes in the rail plan believes a delay wouldn't kill the project or jeopardize about $1.5 billion in expected federal funding.

"We certainly need this level of environmental protection," said Honolulu architect Peter Vincent. "When you look at a project of this magnitude, and the lifespan it will have, it's particularly important."

The pending environmental impact statement should have analyzed whether it would have made more sense for the train to run at street level through Honolulu's urban core, said Panos Prevedouros, a University of Hawaii civil engineering professor who campaigned against rail transit in his 2008 run for mayor.

"The whole thing was a railroaded process. That's why all this anger is coming up now," he said. "People weren't provided options every step of the way."

The City Council voted in 2006 to build a fixed-guideway system following an alternatives analysis that examined elevated, street-level and subway options, said city Transportation Director Wayne Yoshioka.

But that vote didn't specify that the rail line had to be elevated. About 53 percent of Honolulu voters approved a steel-wheeled rail system in the 2008 elections.

When completed in 2019, the rail line would travel from Oahu's "second city" of Kapolei into the Honolulu center, where it would stop at the giant Ala Moana shopping mall. Later extensions of the line would reach tourist-filled Waikiki and the University of Hawaii.

"You hate to have these projects bogged down, but there are cultural and natural resources we have to work hard to protect," said Irene Bowie, executive director of Maui Tomorrow, one of the groups that fought the Superferry in court.

Changes to the environmental law will be considered during this year's legislative session, said Antolini, a member of a team that has studied it over the last two years.

The law would be updated to seek early approval instead of last-minute denials, clarify what projects need environmental review and eliminate bureaucracy, she said.

As for the two ferries, they were obtained by the federal Maritime Administration after Hawaii Superferry filed for bankruptcy.

They're now being used for the U.S. government's relief efforts in Haiti.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 07:31 PM   #96
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Yay for politically motivated bureaucracy. Naturally the planners will be the scapegoat, I'm sure.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 03:49 AM   #97
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Quote:
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I don't know how Honolulu is financing their project, but I hope they're careful with what they choose to do.

San Juan failed miserably because the system was never finished and so it never reached critical areas. Avoid lawsuits, especially if you're using federal money. Try to have everything built on-time. Some contractors took too long to build stations and lawsuits ensued.

Another failure of the San Juan metro was it didn't attract ridership. Expansion to the airport never happened so, potential tourists never rode it. SUV-loving residents well, love their cars and 6-lane highways make moving around by car smooth.

Also, recommended for success, make a unified payment system for all transportation options in Oahu.

As soon as this is built, I'm getting on a plane to Hawaii. As always I hope y'all succeed. It's critical for Hawaii to develop the train culture.

Also, if someone could clarify how they plan on getting financing...
Although San Juan's bigger, Honolulu makes a much stronger case for rail.

Tren Urbano's a fine system, San Juan's lucky to have a heavy rail system, but it suffers 2 big problems:

1. Puerto Rico's more auto dependent than the mainland, almost everyone in PR drives, the metropolitan bus transit system was/is skeletal.

2. Tren Urbano's all suburban alignment made no sense, it didn't serve even Santurce, let alone Old San Juan.

Honolulu's is a very compact but quite dense city with a tradition of high bus ridership.

The proposed alignment connects all of Honolulu's main hubs.

That doesn't mean its smooth sailing in Honolulu, looks likes there still some obstacles ahead!
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 02:12 AM   #98
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In regards to that article mentioning the 'aesthetics of building a concrete strip Honolulu's skyline view of the mountains and ocean'. A guideway like used on Skytrain isn't that high and besides isn't the route proposed going to be pretty much next to the H1 most of the way?

Vancouver looks very similar to Honolulu in regards to highrises, ocean, mountains. Skytrain fits in quite well and the portion that is in the downtown area is underground.

If I remember correctly, the route on the eastern portion uses Nimitz Hwy and Ala Moana Blvd but then turns left before the beach park to terminate at the north side of the mall. The only thing I could see aesthetically that would be affected from an elevated guideway along this part is by Aloha Tower and Ward Center. These portions could be at grade or underground. As well, any planned route east of Ala Moana Ctr into Waikiki would have to be underground unless they single tracked a guideway down Kalakaua>Kuhio. I think elevated guideways would fit well into Honolulu's urban settings. At least it will be faster than a bus on rails like LRT.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 04:24 AM   #99
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HONOLULU | Rail Project

In a much heated debate over how to solve growing traffic woes on O'ahu (the major island of Hawaii, host to the capitol city of Honolulu) a project was proposed - put in a rail system.

After much hoopla, arguments, voting and taxation, the project is getting up on its feet.


Visitors will take great joy in this project - some locals as well - although there are those who lack enthusiasm, for the service route of this rail is to run from "town" to Kapolei and back - ignoring the massive growth potential of the central plains area (where residential projects are now getting approved - other posts for that).

The Rail Project is important though, and so I will post/report on it (and work at keeping my personal views out). My employer is bidding on some aspects of this project, so I will only post what is generally known, verifiable and publicly available (or soon to be released info that won't jeopardize my job! )


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



The Problem
Commuters regularly spend anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours during morning and evening rushes to and from work. If there is an accident along the main corridor (Interstate H1), this time could be doubled - or even tripled! In recent memory, an overpass walkway was struck by a large load in the mid afternoon. People were "stuck" on the H1 well into the night - some even left their cars on the shoulder and hiked to friends' homes in the area to spend the night. Others (like myself) drove the LONG way around the island which on a good day will use up half a tank of gas.

Commuting on Oahu is not fun. To travel only 27 miles, but yet be stuck in clogged traffic for almost 2 hours, makes moving to the mainland a REALLY GOOD idea - until I relax at a beach, or attend some child's birthday party, or visit with the huge family I have. Living Hawaii is wonderful - there is no place like it - and a solution needs to be found to the ever growing traffic situation on the island.

Projections in studies shows that the car:person ratio is triple that on Oahu than it is in other areas similar in size and growth. The major difference is that we have finite space, finite resources, and EVERYTHING must be shipped in. We have no manufacturing plants here. We have one oil refinery company which is watched closely by the city, state and federal offices to avoid price gouging. The population growth on Oahu is expected to double in 10 years - yet our travel routes were built (or planned rather) in the 1970's - when things were good and everyone would have a flying car by the year 2010. (sorry - nod to the Jetsons)

Alas, I will not be flying in to my job anytime soon.

Or even getting there in a decent time.


There is also projected growth in the central area of Oahu (this is rather short term) as residential projects are being planned, and approved, for development on the now empty agricultural land that was once pineapple. Myself, I live in an old Pineapple Village called Whitmore (a part of Wahiawa) and I have seen the for sale signs posted on the huge acreage that was once my pineapple playground. A couple of these signs have disappeared - and yes - quietly the land is being rezoned for development.

With this growth, silent or loud, something MUST be done about the congestion of our roadways - particularly alone the H1 and H2 corridors.






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



The Plan


photo from http://www.honolulutransit.org/
Purpose:
To establish a mass-transit corridor between Downtown Honolulu and Kapolei (the Second City) on Oahu.
After initial proposals, the route was extended from Downtown Honolulu to Ala Moana.
---- To lessen the road traffic on the H1 corridor from Kapolei to Hawaii Kai
---- To promote use of mass transit mode rather than vehicular travel mode
---- To shorten commute time (average 1.5 hours during peak rush)
---- To lessen wear/tear on aging elevated highway spans so as to repair deteriorating concrete


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



History

- Analysis report completed in 2006 with 4 choices to alleviate compounded travel along the east/west corridor of H1 between downtown Honolulu (eastern side) and Kapolei (western side)
-----Guided bus system with dedicated/raised lanes
-----More traffic lanes on the H1 travel corridor
-----More "rubber tire" options (buses) with more routes & more buses
-----High speed fixed-guideway system (rail or something similar)

- In December of that same year, it was voted (by City Council) to use a high speed fixed-guideway [read: rail] system extending from Kapolei to UH Manoa (the university) with a connection to Waikiki

- January, 2007: Initialization of the .5% surcharge to the GET (General Excise & Use Tax) imposed on businesses, who pass the tax to consumers - but ONLY for businesses residing on Oahu. Neighbor island businesses & residents do not pay this surcharge. Locals (on Oahu) call this "Mufi-Money" as the surcharge was purposed & initiated while Mayor Mufi Hanneman was in office. The fixed-rail project also receives its nik: "Mufi's Choochoo" or "TheTrain" (nod to TheBus - our existing bus system) - depending on who you talk to. Citizens of Oahu are for SOME solution to the growing traffic issues - but are mixed over having to pay for it (after all, it is already expensive to live in Hawaii - and on Oahu where property taxes are soaring).

- November, 2008: Final vote by City Council affirms construction of fixed-guided-rail system - steel wheel on steel rail is the chosen technology. Draft EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) submitted.

- June, 2010: Final EIS submitted & accepted by the FTA, State of Hawaii DOT and posted for public viewing at http://www.honolulutransit.org

- Summer 2010: Preliminary analysis of strata [the ground, earth & dirt] in Kapolei/Ewa plains for engineering of raised systems, stations and other construction needs.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by LessZoa; November 24th, 2010 at 04:43 AM. Reason: added "problem" and Oahu map
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Old November 24th, 2010, 04:25 AM   #100
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Transit Stations Planned? May change in future...
This second post is for the Transit Stations - kinda small/separate projects shopped out to different firms.

Kapolei Area
A given as this is where the line starts/ends.
3 projected stations each with...
-- Station w/restrrom facilities
-- Park and Ride lots (no idea how many cars can fascilitate)
-- Landscaping
-- Security (purposed for parking lots & boarding)

Kapolei 1: UH West Station [in Kapolei] concept



Kapolei 2: Hoopili Station concept



Kapolei 3: East Station concept





Waipahu Area

Leeward Community College (LCC) Area

Pearl Highlands Area

Pearlridge Area

Last edited by LessZoa; November 24th, 2010 at 04:50 AM. Reason: added images of proposed Kapolei stations
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