St Petersburg / St Pete Beach / South Pinellas Development News

[jvance75]

that area has some mid-rises a few decades old already...I really think it shouldn't matter. I know for one when people come to stay, they usually stay in a hotel. During the it seems like many events and holidays only the one star motels are vacant now....we need this hotel and more than just the other few just finished or starting construction.

[Jasonhouse]

I said I was kidding about actively knocking down the single family homes. I also think it is absolutely ludicrous that this project was denied for being out fo scale with the neighborhood...

What is this location, maybe 1500 feet from Central itself? One would be lucky to fit a golf course or shopping mall in that distance, yet it is deemed inappropriate to erect a building barely tall enough to even be termed a "highrise"? wow...


Just remember, when you cling to the past, you relive it again and again.

[I-275westcoastfl]

i know you were kidding but looking at google earth its weird because 5th seems to be the urban border so in a way i guess it really is ok to build that hotel. Thats why my last post was bouncing back and forth. But id still think we should knock down some of the other crap in DT and build it there.

[burnside]

The optimism of comments here are a refreshing break for someone like myself whose recent reading has been concentrated on changes occurring throughout the world economy. I realize a first post on this board ought to be a careful one. I wouldn't like to be typecast negatively after all. But for those of you curious about recent news stories suggesting difficult days ahead, I'd like to pass on a few observations about the commercial finance side which have much to do with the success of these construction projects.

The investors who ultimately assume the risk of construction financing have become extremely wary of taking on any new debt. These investors - among them insurance companies, pension funds, major corporations, investment bankers and most significantly by a wide margin, private equity and foreign central banks - have two interrelated and sound reasons for their recent conservatism: indications of a slowing US economy and an apparent failure of risk-rating services such as Moody's and Standard and Poors to give a fair estimate of how the debt will perform in current or future economic conditions. Many institutional investors are restricted to purchasing investment grade assets only. When ratings prove unreliable or are being downgraded - as some have been lately - the confidence of the marketplace is thrown into question, and some have already been burned by highly-rated debt obligations which lost much of their value in the past few weeks.

Not only has this slowed the velocity of new development money, it has placed developers in a position of building into an uncertain marketplace. Since it can take years to assemble the approvals necessary for large projects - and for the required financing - some forge bravely ahead. And some are essentially forced by contractual arrangements to build whether or not it makes sense to do so.

The recent pattern of ever-rising real estate valuation appear to be ending, and the change in the market for structured debt, though ongoing, has already been swift and brutal. By the end of next week, all major home lenders will be looking only at mortgage applications for standard, conforming loans - 80/20 loan to value ratios, no borrowing for down payments, verified employment history and 720+ FICO.

As you may imagine, this has considerable influence on how highrise developers themselves see their projects and their prospects. I was sorry to see the Westin proposals rejected, but the city may have done the developers a considerable favor by stopping them.

[smiley]

You mean by the end of next week lenders will remember the lessons of the 1920's. Thank God.

[Jasonhouse]

Now we'll see how long it takes people to figure out that by and large, our economy has 'grown' in recent years because we financed that growth with debt.

[randommichael]

America loves debt, and it will get us into trouble sooner or later. The National debt is out of control and will have to be re-paid eventually. Consumers spend even when they can't afford it. I still regard the credit card as the single worst financial thing that has happened to this country in a long time. One day people will learn, but will it be too late? I guess it will be when we are the United States of Japan, or United States of China.

[Tallaman]

^ I'm with you RM. Too many Americans lack the discipline to manage their consumer debt effectively and for that we all will pay, just like with insurance on properties in hazard-prone areas. Economics is what killed communism in the USSR, not any military. Nice cheery outlook, isn't it?

[burnside]

It wasn't my intention to change the direction of the thread.

Let me just suggest, since many of the contributors here strike me as relatively young and optimistic, that you must not be discouraged. Study the history of RE downturns and consider that they can offer real opportunities which are well worth understanding and waiting for. Get busy.

Now. Let's get back to skyscrapers.

[bungalow]

Hi everyone:

I was downtown St Pete today( I only live a few blocks from there ) and had to drive by all of the areas under construction as I do every few weeks. Construction on Signature is now at the 13th floor of the condo building. It seems they are getting this up fast! Also, the sign is now up at the Grand Bohemian about pre construction pricing. I'm not sure if that was there before? 400 Beach Drive is really coming along. Just in the last couple of weeks, it is looking so much better. Does anyone have any idea of the retail going in there? I know Ooze & Schmooze is going in. W Plaza is looking so much better too, now that the lower front section is complete.

[Quegiebo]

Originally Posted by randommichael

America loves debt, and it will get us into trouble sooner or later. The National debt is out of control and will have to be re-paid eventually. Consumers spend even when they can't afford it. I still regard the credit card as the single worst financial thing that has happened to this country in a long time. One day people will learn, but will it be too late? I guess it will be when we are the United States of Japan, or United States of China.

I'm in total agreement, random. I recently responded at quite length with a social/political commentary in a SSC thread regarding the I-35 bridge collapse http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=506021&page=5 where I echo your sentiments and put a mirror to America's face. Jason's point is right on the mark about our addiction to debt; Smiley's reference to the lessons of the 1920's; and Burnside's observations in commercial finance (seen the volitility index VIX lately?) where all is not rosey... let's just say optimism keeps some of us from going insane.

Oh, and random - I bet on China.

As to St. Pete, for whatever reason I sense that development is less risky than here in downtown Tampa, but I don't know if the numbers bear that out. I think Signature is the most remarkable tower locally and Grand Bohemian will be another nice addition.

[jvance75]

the preconstruction signs for the gb hotel has had those signs up for a while now....bungalow, located in old northeast or bayboro area? just wondering...dont really know many SSC posters that live in or near downtown.

[smiley]

St. PEte is less risky if you have a good water view location - it has better water views than tampa. OF course, St. Pete had the advantage of being more of a clean slate - but they did a very nice job. and then there is clearwater

[bungalow]

Hi. I'm in the Old Northeast.

Phil

[bungalow]

You know, I thought I had seen those some time ago. I thought they were taken down. Maybe not. Anyway, from what I hear; construction should be starting soon as Kessler Group recently presented the $120 million funding package to the city.

[Tallaman]

I was there in December 2006 and have a pic of the GB sign on the site right next to the new Progress Energy building.

[jvance75]

we get a little downtown update newsletter every month in the mail, it actually has some real information in it. The GB hotel seems a go...ah, old northeast. I notice bayboro and the surrounding area has been well under way to become the next revitalized urban neighborhood...some of the houses are huge and it looks like something near bayshore, while right next door you can still see two old crack houses boarded up with chain link fence...im guessing the area down 2nd st s will become the commercial strip for these people moving back in to the neighborhood. Tampa and St. Petersburg should have some kind of urban SSC meeting in each city core for urban residents to meet others of same interests and also meet with the common fact we are all living in new and emerging urban cores and we need to take the flame away from the few NIMBYs that show up to complain about some of these developments and issues in both downtown areas that will decide their futures. phil, I live at the other end of DT at 4th Ave S and 1st Street across from the new progress energy center for the arts that is starting construction. I am guessing the ballpark was kept out of the urban park and will become private condos?

[bungalow]

I always look forward to see projects in the Old NE newsletter. Great to hear about the Grand Bohemain in your recent newsletter!! The Grand Bohemian is going to be amazing. Love the lantern look. Where is BayBoro? Is the Progress Energy Park going away? I wasn't aware of that.

[jvance75]

Bayboro is the area in and around the University of South Florida St. Petersburg Branch and Bayfront Hospital, it has the same style of homes as old northeast...its is an emerging downtown neighborhood. The Times actually did an article about how 60 homes that were priced at 359k+ and 90% of the buyers were African American breaking the fears of people in the burg that gentrification of the neighborhoods would move people around and the minority and also the poor were going to be lost in the shuffle. So far, they have built some mixed use projects where no one knows anothers income but could have paid much lower than market rate and its worked very well. They have also relocated a lot of people to modern urban mixed use condos in the gateway area too. The Bayboro area of downtown is home to USF, SRI, MTS, and Wikipedia(WikiMedia),and a growing number of popular technology based companies are under construction. The Barnes & Noble on 5th is considered the Bayboro area...

The Progress Energy Park is totally being redone and expanded into the largest urban park in Florida. The Mahaffey Theatre looks great and turned out very modern with the huge curved glass building side. The parking lot is being ripped up, the Progress Energy Ball Park will become a private condo project though, the bayfront arena has been gone for a while, I have seen little to no work on the new Dali....they have just installed new Progress Energy Park signs I am thinking have to do with the upcoming debate....I wish they could have done some plants and some permanent signs instead of the plywood/print look they have going now(it still looks nice for a sign, just a little flimsy). The Airport office building right near the new urban park has finished construction.

[Jahi98]

Digest

$170-million downtown project dies

By Times Staff Writer
Published September 2, 2007

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/09/02/Ne...owntown_.shtml

ST. Petersburg

A plan for a $170-million mixed-use project at Fourth Street and Third Avenue N is officially dead. Atlanta-based Miles Development decided to pass on the deal before committing to buy the land, Jason Perry, Miles' vice president of development, said in a statement. "It's a great site, and it all came down to making the numbers work," he said. "Market conditions changed, and we just weren't able to put enough density on the site to make it economically feasible." Among other things, the plan called for a high-rise office building, a hotel and upscale grocery in several different phases. Miles recently opened its 114-unit 1010 Central condo project and in November will open the Sage, a 112-unit project southwest of downtown. The company also has plans for a 159-unit apartment building at 1701 Central next to Interstate 275.