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Old July 18th, 2013, 09:38 PM   #6981
Ghostface79
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boy, you guys take it personal don't you? nobody's dissing London, I have figures that don't necessarily differ to your own, but in the end it comes to what we define as city limits, which obviously differ. I was actually enjoying leaning from some of you guys about the structure of London compared to NYC, but I'll leave it there cause this discussion is killing the fun.
As far as facts, how about you look at databases from your own census. here's a link to the UK 2013 Census. I'm sure all of us are eductated enough to understand the difference between "Inner London" and "Outer London"?! Facts are facts, athough I do understand how complex London's structure is. Check out the "Region and Coutry Profile" and scroll down to London. It was fun all!
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-a...ation+estimate
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Old July 18th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #6982
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No city limits of London would encompass a 3m population though, just because the census might divide London in that way doesn't mean it's a well-recognised boundary. Inner London and Outer London are meaningless as far as city limits are concerned now. The Spliff Fairy's explanation about the City, Greater London, and the London metro (i.e. the South East) is spot on. London IS Greater London for all intents and purposes, and its population is more or less 8m.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 09:58 PM   #6983
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'Inner London' is equivalent to a Manhattan. It's not a city proper, nor a physical boundary. It's merely the INNER. CITY.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 09:58 PM   #6984
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and nobody is disputing that! again city limitations for NYC and London are obviously quite different and if we stick to the strict city limit as in NYC the number for London is 3 Mill, that's all I was pointing out; tho when the complexity of London's geography is taken into account the number is 8 Mill. But we're beating a dead horse here, I think everybody's point have been made, I'll live it there and keep enjoying new developments in London.
And NYC as an INNER CITY is comprised of 5 boroughs not just manhattan.

Last edited by Ghostface79; July 18th, 2013 at 10:04 PM.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:08 PM   #6985
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a rough idea of some the contiguous city that spreads out past the white outlines of both 'Inner' London and 'Greater' London. The large Metro area ( and the fingers of urbanity contiguous with the city and that stretch out much further) are not shown as it would not be able to fit on the screen.

Once again THIS IS NOT A METRO/ CSA MAP




-Geddit????
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #6986
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This would be a metro/ CSA map, though most of it is still off screen. Compare it with above and youll see how much the city spreads past even that map, with tendrils east down the river, west well into the Home Counties, south into Surrey and north along the reservoirs.

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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:42 PM   #6987
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Greater London (8.3 million) is what most people here consider to make up most of either the metropolitan area or urban area of London.

For New York City (8.3 million), most people consider it to be just the core of a vast and extensive metropolitan and contiguous urban area; one that makes up less than half of the total urban area.


Alternatively, if we were to come up with a measurement for the core of a city (perhaps the largest contiguous area of a city with at least a certain defined percentage higher than the urban area's average density, or some other definition) then New York's core population is surely greater than London's. I'm sure London-boosters will find some way to not agree.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #6988
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I think that's a given. What we're arguing here is that London isnt bloody 3 million! Nor is it's city proper population of 8.3 million it's 'metro'. That would make it smaller than Athens.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:48 PM   #6989
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Oh and 'Greater London' falls well short of the urban population, and the contiguous one, and godammit the metro one.

Does noone understand that for the 17th time... 'Greater' London doesnt mean the greater city. It doesnt even mean 'the city'. It means... the smaller city.

[img]https://encrypted-tbn1.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNXjzAJ5fQgiJFzRLdgWaP-ScsrrSFGxqJzbLqGawTcZRmpiPkcg[/img]
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:49 PM   #6990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
'Inner London' is equivalent to a Manhattan. It's not a city proper, nor a physical boundary. It's merely the INNER. CITY.
When New Yorkers hear "innercity" they consider that New York City... That's the point. When you consider the innercity of both metros/urban areas, New York's is clearly larger.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #6991
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Yep, you've missed the point streetscapeer. The last four of five posts by TSF have been spot on, and nothing to do with London boosting.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #6992
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Anyway, I love London and can't wait to go back to visit.. I think both cities are the centers of the world!
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:51 PM   #6993
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erm ok. Just re-read the posts.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #6994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
Oh and 'Greater London' falls well short of the urban population, and the contiguous one, and godammit the metro one.

Does noone understand that for the 17th time... 'Greater' London doesnt mean the greater city. It doesnt even mean 'the city'. It means... the smaller city.

[img]https://encrypted-tbn1.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNXjzAJ5fQgiJFzRLdgWaP-ScsrrSFGxqJzbLqGawTcZRmpiPkcg[/img]
I think my posts make it clear that I don't consider Greater London equivalent to metro area or urban area. Remember, I said that Greater London (8.3mil) makes up significantly more of the whole urban area of London than New York City does with its urban area. That is beacause New York City is considered just the core/inner city of the whole urban region, whereas from my visits to London, I've felt that Greater London encompasses much more than just the core/inner city.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #6995
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argh. I didnt mean you!
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Old July 18th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #6996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
argh. I didnt mean you!
Oh ok, sorry
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Old July 18th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #6997
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No worries. -

Another kettle of fish. Greater London does miss out large parts of the urban contiguous city, but yes that doesnt compare to the large suburbs of NYC that are missed out from the 5 boroughs. Once again, all that's a few pages back when it all started talking about the Green Belt - rather than have blanketing relatively low density surburbia London leapfrogs the protected green areas into high density pockets (see satellite map).

In other words:

city proper:

London 8.3 million, NYC 8.3 million

city contiguous:

London (Green Belt effect) 10 million, NYC 17 million

'Metro' (or of you prefer 11,500-11,850 miles equivalent)

London (11,500 miles based on proximity) 20.5 million, NYC (11,850 miles based on commuting and tv catchment area) 22.1 million
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Last edited by the spliff fairy; July 21st, 2013 at 11:55 PM.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #6998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
Another kettle of fish. Greater London does miss out large parts of the urban contiguous city, but yes that doesnt compare to the large suburbs of NYC that are missed out from the 5 boroughs. Once again, all that's a few pages back when it all started about the Green Belt - rather than have blanketing relatively low density surburbia London leapfrogs the protected green areas into high density pockets (see satellite map).

In other words:

city proper:

London 8.3 million, NYC 8.3 million

city contiguous:

London (hemmed in by the Green Belt effect) 9.3 million, NYC 17 million

'Metro' (or of you prefer 11,500-11,850 miles equivalent)

London (11,500) 20.5 million, NYC (11,850) 22.1 million
I agree with the first two categories. I will be honest and say that I don't know enough about the last category when considering London's metro. My first inkling would be to disagree based on my travels, but again, I'm not sure. For New York metro is slightly smaller than 22 million, actually 20 million. And people throughout the metro will actually tell you that they are from the suburbs of NYC. Would this be the case for London? (honest question).

Also, I actually consider the Urban Area of a city to be a truer measure of population size rather than metro (at least the way metro is defined here in the states.)

Cheers
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Old July 18th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #6999
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But the unsaid thing of course is that a CSA for London can not be measured on either proximity or commuting, either of which would start taking up most of middle England (cramming in near 50 million into an area the size of Maine). Blue Banana and all that. You can only draw a line based on the immediate x amount of sq miles - there would be little change in land/ urban form in or out of that line.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 11:44 PM   #7000
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anyone outside the Green Belt wont consider themselves suburbs of London, even if theyre contiguous. For example the residents of Slough or Staines or Woking would NEVER think of themselves as Londoners, despite spotting red double deckers on one route and having Oyster cards still validated, or if they ever felt the urge to walk all the way into Trafalgar Square. Even places like Kingston that are much much closer would, out of sheer snobbery, feel themselves apart, places like Richmond (home of the uber rich) still consider themselves part of Surrey despite being made a London borough in 1965. The same with down at heel areas like Romford, middle class areas like Gillingham etc. All the commuter towns that pepper the region even worse. London's some place they work in at the end of the line, and hate, but occasionally party and shop in. That's why they live out here. Also most people don't even know.

Plus bear in mind every ward in the city will have a relatively self sufficient high street and town centre, whether youre in central Islington or way out in Woking - hence why London is known as a 'city of villages' due to the countless ones that have been swallowed up:

Everywhere they have town centres, even the contiguous London edges:



[img]http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/95510479-aerial-view-of-guildford-city-centre-***********.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=7gWrZHADc0iYDLFsMB%2Bmk%2BMDlj9gpD9crb43wDpPhSojmpVBozPCEhlBpKwre9Bi[/img]




The Green Belt - one vast urban/rural fabric - but not suburbia:











image hosted on flickr





Last edited by the spliff fairy; July 19th, 2013 at 12:40 AM.
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