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Old August 4th, 2013, 05:42 PM   #7401
Galro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Again, France, and Paris in particular isn't a good example of how pedestrian friendly streets are done. In places it's even more cluttered than UK. For good example you should look at some Asian cities not the Continent.
Why do you keep on mentioning Paris and France? All the examples posted so far have been from Brussels, Belgium (with the exception of the one link I posted).
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Old August 4th, 2013, 05:45 PM   #7402
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Why do you keep on mentioning Paris and France? All the examples posted so far have been from Brussels, Belgium (with the exception of the one link I posted).
My bad than sorry it reminded me France a lot.

Belgium actually has a very bad road safety record as for Western European country, so not good example to show here either.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 05:57 PM   #7403
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Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Confusing for whom? Motorist have clear signs where to go, unlike free for all junctions in France and pedestriand have clear green light ONLY for them, again unlike in France.
Theres five traffic islands with multitude of traffic lights. If I was a motorist Id have no idea whats going on. If I was a cyclist Id have no idea whats going on (such places are cyclist killers). As a pedestrian I have no idea whats going on. It takes ages to cross what should be a simple junction. Oh and yeah its absolutely ugly. Thats what Holborn Circus going to look like. Not much of an improvement.

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Not sure, from Greece may be then but I am quite confident you want use that country as an example
I live in London.

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I bother
No you dont, you said so yourself. You believe the road belongs to you and should be plastered with signs and markings to make your life easier. It shouldnt. As a driver you impose your lifestyle on everyone else already.

In fact clutter on the UK streets is such a problem that even the Government is complaining about it.
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Last edited by El_Greco; August 4th, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 06:35 PM   #7404
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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Theres five traffic islands with multitude of traffic lights. If I was a motorist Id have no idea whats going on. If I was a cyclist Id have no idea whats going on (such places are cyclist killers). As a pedestrian I have no idea whats going on. It takes ages to cross what should be a simple junction. Oh and yeah its absolutely ugly. Thats what Holborn Circus going to look like. Not much of an improvement.
Ok, let's take the road with no clutter, no markings, etc:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/5/.../3/4/o/d24.jpg

Is this road safe? You probably have more chances being killed on this road than being in the cage with tiger.

Next step, the roads in Belgium with more clutter, signs, etc. Are they safe? Safer than in the picture above but as twice as unsafe than in the UK.

Let's take UK roads, more clutter, but safer? What would you chose Clearly UK has one of the safest roads on the Planet with not very good drivers, some of them are complete idiots. Is safety on the UK road achieved with adding more clutter? Yes, I believe so, because if you start to remove it your safety records will drop to levels like in Belgium or like it was in 70s. Can you change some of clutter to different style, I guess this is your question, as otherwise why would you want to make roads more unsafe? Yes, you probably can change the style but as you know in the UK everybody loves when everything is unified, so all signs look the same, all road markings look the same, so whenever you go you will see same markings so if you start changing something in one place, you have to change it across the whole UK, otherwise people would be confused and safety will go down. I guess you don't want this for sure.

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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post

No you dont, you said so yourself. You believe the road belongs to you and should be plastered with signs and markings to make your life easier. It shouldnt. As a driver you impose your lifestyle on everyone else already.

In fact clutter on the UK streets is such a problem that even the Government is complaining about it.
Roads belongs to drivers (I don't like cars in the cities either but at the moment this is as it is) and signs there are to made them safe. If I don't drive, you don't drive, when my neighbor John will drive, and will kill us both because he will miss some turn due to luck of signs. Also, London actually is extremly good example of how city of its size can almost get rid of cars from the city center so it became also much safer indeed.

Again, goverment just want to safe money on signage and I've seen some local TV news when locals are actually complaining when some signs are going down. Plus, I am confident the safety level will drop as well.

Last edited by Quicksilver; August 4th, 2013 at 06:41 PM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #7405
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Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Is this road safe?
What utter bullshit post. Lets put up clutter because people are idiots!

How about some common sense and higher driving standards?

Quote:
he will miss some turn due to luck of signs.
Then he shouldnt drive, because he clearly doesnt pay any attention to what is going on around him and depends entirely on signs.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:06 PM   #7406
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What utter bullshit post. Lets put up clutter because people are idiots!

How about some common sense and higher standards?



Then he shouldnt drive. These things just make drivers careless.
Yes, some drivers are idiots, trust me Do you drive? When I lived in London I didn't drive because you don't need to but now I have to drive every day for about 1 hour 40 min to and from work because there is no any other way for me to get to work.

So, you better prefer to have less clutter but higher chances by being run over by some idiot, correct?

There will always be bad drivers regardless of what you do and "these things" make it harder for those 10% idiots to be more idiots on the roads.

Have you ever watched this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_Wars_%28TV_series%29

Watch it and you will understand how some "useless" clutter safes peoples lives.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:12 PM   #7407
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Maybe we shouldnt go outside full stop? I always found streets safer on the Continent than here - there drivers know that streets do not belong to them and that there are other users as well and thus they act accordingly. Here everything revolves around the motorist who has become careless precisely because of the clutter. He doesnt need to use his eyes or head, there are signs that think for him!
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Last edited by El_Greco; August 4th, 2013 at 07:19 PM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:14 PM   #7408
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Mods? Anyone around to stop this shit?
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #7409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Maybe we shouldnt go outside full stop? I always found streets safer on the Continent than here - there drivers know that streets do not belong to them and that there are other users as well and thus they act accordingly. Here everything revolves around the motorist who has become careless precisely because of the clutter. He doesnt need to use his eyes or head, there are signs for that!
Again, statistic says opposite. As I've mentioned, may be one of the countries on the Continent is your home country that's why you feel safer but in the reality it's quite opposite actually. Plus, the standards of driving in some countries are much poorer than in the UK, and there are less people who act accordingly so you actually have to drive erratically to avoid any accidents. Trust me, once, I've spent the whole summer in Italy driving around.

Do you believe by removing clutter UK roads would became safer? What about those idiots? They still will be on the road. Also, it was less clutter in 70s and 80s and dead toll on the UK roads was rather appalling. So, sorry, I want to be safe as a pedestrian or cyclist.

Have a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ki...tish_Roads.png



I also believe that clutter would actually go up to protect cyclists now as they still constitute the big proportion of all fatalities

Last edited by Quicksilver; August 4th, 2013 at 07:24 PM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:21 PM   #7410
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Statistics :rofl
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:25 PM   #7411
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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Statistics :rofl
Do you have anything else instead? or just happy feeling being in your home town?
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:26 PM   #7412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post

Do you have anything else instead?
Yeah experience. Statistics can be skewed to the left and to the right to suit just about any position.

Bottom line is theres clutter overload which is even bugging the Government and which not only makes streets ugly it also makes drivers careless.
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Last edited by El_Greco; August 4th, 2013 at 07:34 PM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #7413
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Quote:
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Yeah experience.
Strangely, I have it too.

Never felt safer than on the UK road either as pedestrian or driver, may be apart from Sweden, Denmark or Japan. Statistic seems to agree with my personal observations.
Really, this conversation becomes pointless. I want safer roads, you want less clutter. May be you should move to some rural place, it’s less clutter here you know.

You cannot skewed number of fatalities, it's either there or not.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:38 PM   #7414
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is this shit
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:39 PM   #7415
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Yawn. Removal of clutter does not = more dangerous roads. Remove the traffic islands and instead of 4 traffic lights put 2 (of less monstrous design). What is wrong with that? Instead of unsightly yellow lines outline where you can park and where you cant or put in a gutter. What is wrong with that?
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:41 PM   #7416
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This debate really took off.

El Greco i've just read through all of your posts since my last. This conversation seems to have shifted from Holborn Circus to a bigger debate about road signs and markings in general. However your wider argument seems to be quite simple, that you don't like street furniture because you find it ugly and often too numerous. Would you agree with this or am I being inaccurate?

Now, in response to being told to get some common sense, which is not a particularly nice thing to say to someone, I find it hypocritical to then suggest a complete overhaul, and in some instances a drastic reduction, in road markings and signage for the purpose of achieving a more pleasant streetscape. Would this itself not be a decision lacking in common sense? Especially when we are in the midst of striving to make our roads in London even safer for vulnerable road users. Especially as a nation when we are struggling to recover from economic disaster.

So I am not going to respond to every single post because I do not have the time. However, I would like to make it quite clear that my view on the matter regarding road markings and signage (or 'clutter' as it also seems to be known) is best handled when its first priority is to improve the safety of ALL road users and that goes for pedestrians as well. This is and always should be the first priority as that is its main function to begin with.

As Quicksilver correctly indicates in a previous post, the design and appearance of 'clutter' should be highly visible, simple, uniform and functional. Once this is achieved, you can then consider secondary priorities such as whether or not they add or detract to how pretty or ugly a street looks.

Personally, I could not care less what other countries are doing with their street furniture UNLESS they are achieving greater positive results in road safety and for ALL road users then I am all ears for it. Secondly if we're going to talk aesthetics then from a street-level point of view London is already one of the most attractive and endearing cities in the world in my eyes (this is an opinion & I do not expect everyone reading it to share it so you are welcome to respectfully disagree and in a polite and civil manner). Therefore the issue as I see it is not how much or how little road markings and signage we employ, but the quality and effectiveness of their implementation.

MODS: I'd like to apologize for my part in sending this thread off topic. If there is a more suitable forum for this debate to be moved to i'd appreciate that, but if you do move it could you please notify us where. Thank you.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #7417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Alert! View Post
Now, in response to being told to get some common sense, which is not a particularly nice thing to say to someone, I find it hypocritical to then suggest a complete overhaul, and in some instances a drastic reduction, in road markings and signage for the purpose of achieving a more pleasant streetscape. Would this itself not be a decision lacking in common sense? Especially when we are in the midst of striving to make our roads in London even safer for vulnerable road users. Especially as a nation when we are struggling to recover from economic disaster.
I was saying people need to get some common sense not you.

Removal of clutter does not = more dangerous roads. Remove the traffic islands and instead of 4 traffic lights put 2 (of less monstrous design). What is wrong with that? Instead of unsightly yellow lines outline where you can park and where you cant or put in a gutter. What is wrong with that? How does that compromise safety? Corpses are not going to start suddenly pile up on the roadside and if they are then there is a problem with driving culture. And yes how city looks is important.

As for economy - clutter requires maintenance - the less of it you have the less you have to spend on maintaining it.
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Last edited by El_Greco; August 4th, 2013 at 08:26 PM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #7418
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Okay...the well-being of people's sanity is going to be seriously damaged when they see that this thread which was meant for London's progress in construction has turned into a 2 way argument about idiotic drivers and street clutter. Please, save it for the London Skybar or something.

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Old August 4th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #7419
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Blimey. I didn't know there was so much to be said about yellow lines...
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Old August 4th, 2013, 08:55 PM   #7420
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At this rate I suggest a new thread be created called London road markings and safety statistics
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