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Old June 27th, 2014, 10:52 PM   #10821
SomeKindOfBug
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All depends on definition I guess.

Most countries that calculate metropolitan areas tend to be liberal with their scope, to the extent that the entirety of the South East would constitute London's metro area using their criteria.
The UK as a whole is a complete outlier when it comes to urbanization and population studies. There are entire cities with a lower population density than the whole of England. And by some international standards, the entire South East is one big metro area, making it one of the largest cities in the world.

Even more strange: in America I've found they'll refer to any significant urban area as a 'city', even for places with less than 100,000 people. Because there's nothing around them. They stand alone in the middle of thousands and thousands of miles of nothing.

Over here it's different. I can drive from Manchester to London, via Birmingham, in a single afternoon. Second city to third city to first city. Without ever going outside of a town or city. Just sprawl for a hundred and fifty miles. In the US, or China, or parts of Europe, you can't do that. There's always that zone to pass through of wilderness and empty landscape. Heck, there are areas of Canada they consider 'built up' that are as big as the whole British Isles and have less than a million people living in it.

London's population is always going to be a weird thing. Like Tokyo, it's impossible to tell where the city begins or ends. I've heard 8 million one day, 11 million the next. If you go by a minimum population density then the thing gets bigger to 14. And then if you want to start using other country's metrics, you can variably calculate London to be anywhere from 10-20. And it's not like London has a bunch of favelas tucked away somewhere. It's all first world housing and infrastructure and stuff.
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Old June 27th, 2014, 11:03 PM   #10822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB1 View Post
high immigration and migration are putting a strain on the london housing market tho SE9. As prices a rising at a alarming rate, sqeezing out first time buyers like myself.
Maybe think about what the unprecedented property speculation has got to do with this and what Boris and his party have done to make things worse.
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Old June 27th, 2014, 11:45 PM   #10823
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Originally Posted by TowerMaranhão View Post
Maybe think about what the unprecedented property speculation has got to do with this and what Boris and his party have done to make things worse.
It's more to do with a lack of new builds than anything else.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 12:19 AM   #10824
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Maybe think about what the unprecedented property speculation has got to do with this and what Boris and his party have done to make things worse.
Yes, you're right, by growing the economy and stabilising national debt, they've fostered international confidence in London as a destination for investment, which has driven prices up.

If only we could return to a time when London was in tatters and nobody wanted to live here!
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:25 AM   #10825
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high immigration and migration are putting a strain on the london housing market tho SE9. As prices a rising at a alarming rate, sqeezing out first time buyers like myself.
Don't pin your problem on immigrants. Pin it on those responsible on restricting the supply of housing. Not mentioning other contributing factors like the record low interest rates and so forth.

I'd rather London continue to attract young migrants and build a suitable amount of units and associated infrastructure, than just be content with stagnation/regression.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:36 AM   #10826
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Se9, my point was there isn't enough homes being built for the average person with high immigration and migration. Demand is exceeding new builds resulting in pushing up the average house price. Where I was looking in hackney, the average home was £400,000. Which is way above what I can afford.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:36 AM   #10827
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Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
The UK as a whole is a complete outlier when it comes to urbanization and population studies. There are entire cities with a lower population density than the whole of England. And by some international standards, the entire South East is one big metro area, making it one of the largest cities in the world.

Even more strange: in America I've found they'll refer to any significant urban area as a 'city', even for places with less than 100,000 people. Because there's nothing around them. They stand alone in the middle of thousands and thousands of miles of nothing.

Over here it's different. I can drive from Manchester to London, via Birmingham, in a single afternoon. Second city to third city to first city. Without ever going outside of a town or city. Just sprawl for a hundred and fifty miles. In the US, or China, or parts of Europe, you can't do that. There's always that zone to pass through of wilderness and empty landscape. Heck, there are areas of Canada they consider 'built up' that are as big as the whole British Isles and have less than a million people living in it.

London's population is always going to be a weird thing. Like Tokyo, it's impossible to tell where the city begins or ends. I've heard 8 million one day, 11 million the next. If you go by a minimum population density then the thing gets bigger to 14. And then if you want to start using other country's metrics, you can variably calculate London to be anywhere from 10-20. And it's not like London has a bunch of favelas tucked away somewhere. It's all first world housing and infrastructure and stuff.
The point is metropolitan areas are defined using different criteria each time, so they are difficult to compare directly. I prefer to use urban areas for that reason, as metropolitan areas can be extended to a somewhat unrealistic extent (even though Kent is certainly dependent on London, I wouldn't consider it part of it). LUZs can be used in Europe as they are measured with a consisent set of criteria.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:39 AM   #10828
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Se9, my point was there isn't enough homes being built for the average person with high immigration and migration. Demand is exceeding new builds resulting in pushing up the average house price. Where I was looking in hackney, the average home was £400,000. Which is way above what I can afford.
Well, I read somewhere house prices are going up by aroung 15/20% a year, which is of course an unstustainable growth rate, meaning it will slow down or even reverse in the near future.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:43 AM   #10829
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There was a piece in the Guardian a couple of months ago or so in which they accompanied potential clients while visiting flats put of for sale in Hackney. They were all white British upper middle-class people, like ad-agency creatives, entrepreneurs, etc; it's them on whose backs the price rises in Hackney are happening.

International immigration is of course one factor for the increase of demand, but not the only one; the figures for internal immigration towards London are extremely impressive (and worrying).
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Old June 28th, 2014, 02:18 AM   #10830
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There was a piece in the Guardian a couple of months ago or so in which they accompanied potential clients while visiting flats put of for sale in Hackney. They were all white British upper middle-class people, like ad-agency creatives, entrepreneurs, etc; it's them on whose backs the price rises in Hackney are happening.

International immigration is of course one factor for the increase of demand, but not the only one; the figures for internal immigration towards London are extremely impressive (and worrying).
It seems that there's more luxury apartments being built than the average family home. As i said lack of new builds, high immigration and MIGRATION are the three factors pushing up prices. This has become a problem not because of immigration and migration but they are the cause by no fault of their own. But due to developers looking for higher profit margins and local and national gov's not tackling the issue of the increasing demand for homes for the average family.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:16 PM   #10831
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Quote:
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It seems that there's more luxury apartments being built than the average family home. As i said lack of new builds, high immigration and MIGRATION are the three factors pushing up prices. This has become a problem not because of immigration and migration but they are the cause by no fault of their own. But due to developers looking for higher profit margins and local and national gov's not tackling the issue of the increasing demand for homes for the average family.
No what's happening is areas which were formally in decline and a bit iffy are being gentrified and tarted up which is attracted young people because the areas are now looking nicer. Here in manchester Hulme was renowned for being dodgy but after the 90s redevelopment of part of Hulme the number of young, educated professionals has increased. You shouldn't blame all your problems on immigrants the only reason why people do this is because they're an easy target group. The government should have done more to actually help ordinary people not spend their time privatising key assets and messing up benefits!
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:41 PM   #10832
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No what's happening is areas which were formally in decline and a bit iffy are being gentrified and tarted up which is attracted young people because the areas are now looking nicer. Here in manchester Hulme was renowned for being dodgy but after the 90s redevelopment of part of Hulme the number of young, educated professionals has increased. You shouldn't blame all your problems on immigrants the only reason why people do this is because they're an easy target group. The government should have done more to actually help ordinary people not spend their time privatising key assets and messing up benefits!
Read what I actually said before accusing ppl of things.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 01:51 PM   #10833
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On the flipside, you shouldn't simplify the solution to 'build more houses', as though that were a simple on/off binary position to take. Britain is still dealing the the green belt legacy from the 50s, and that's not something I'd like to see thrown out just for the sake of a quick fix.

The solution to the housing crisis is as multifaceted as the crisis itself. Some areas have inflated prices. Some have high demand. Some have a complex combination of many different economic factors with no clear answers.

While immigration isn't the sole reason, it is a reason. Just because they take a disproportionate amount of the blame doesn't mean they aren't still part of the problem. That's not to say immigration is bad. Or gentrification is bad. Or any of the factors causing the housing squeeze are inherently bad. Just that the circumstances are bad.

Is London prohibitively expensive? Parts of it, for sure. But Manchester has been regularly listed as the most affordable city in Europe. And with its young, sophisticated culture and booming construction market, I think its emergence as a true second city will alleviate a lot of London's problems.

You see, Britain has for a long time not had a second city. Birmingham and Manchester have vied in that position for ages, yet both have been far behind where a normal second city would have been. In America and Germany and France, and pretty much every other industrialized nation, the second city is half the population and half the economic output of the first. But in Britain, it's a quarter.

So maybe Manchester rapidly growing in population (third highest city growth in the country) and economic output (third highest increase since 2007, ahead of London and Birmingham by a considerable margin) will help balance things out.

We have Europe's most expensive city and Europe's most affordable city on both ends of a potential HS2 project. And in between them we have a hundred miles of towns and villages and cities and everything else. Places without a housing crisis. Places with empty homes and depressed economies. So shifting the weight of the country north is in the interests of southerners, I think.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 02:12 PM   #10834
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Not only the UK. The likes of France (Paris) and particularly South Korea (Seoul) have a main city that's substantially larger by population and economy than the others in their country.

Being able to attract the skilled (especially the skilled young) helps to make a city successful. A successful city will attract people to it, which is what London has increasingly done since the period of decline in the late 20th century. Skilled migration, which is what London intakes, has a net economic benefit to the destination. It's in London's interest to encourage migration whilst investing in homes and the necessary infrastructure. It's not in London's interest to curb its success (thereby curbing migration) or curb migration (thereby curbing its success). They go hand in hand.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 06:38 PM   #10835
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Primate cities. Thailand and Bangkok is the worst for it, the US doesn't have one.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 07:00 PM   #10836
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The US has a $17-trillion economy spread over an area the size of a continent, so it's a little bit different.

Despite that, NYC is overwhelmingly the largest and and most important city in the country, with a metropolitan area of about 25 million, almost 10% of the country's population, and a GDP worth $1.5 trillion (again, ~10%).

When you consider that the UK economy is made up almost entirely of services, tech, and IP, it makes even more sense to have a concentration of resources in London.

The main benefit of HS2 would be bringing even more people closer to London, rather than spreading the wealth of London thin over the whole country.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 08:26 PM   #10837
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The US has a $17-trillion economy spread over an area the size of a continent, so it's a little bit different.

Despite that, NYC is overwhelmingly the largest and and most important city in the country, with a metropolitan area of about 25 million, almost 10% of the country's population, and a GDP worth $1.5 trillion (again, ~10%).

When you consider that the UK economy is made up almost entirely of services, tech, and IP, it makes even more sense to have a concentration of resources in London.

The main benefit of HS2 would be bringing even more people closer to London, rather than spreading the wealth of London thin over the whole country.
They're not mutually exclusive. Expanding the commute radius with HS2 expands London's economic influence along a corridor of already well-established cities. And developing a true second city in the north takes a lot of housing pressure off London, allowing it to expand commercially rather than residentially.

Of course London will remain the hub. But the future economic prosperity of Manchester and Birmingham relies upon them being a spoke on that wheel. This is true of every country.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 08:28 PM   #10838
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Essex Thameside Franchise retained by National Express
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/p...-new-rail-deal
- an additional fleet of 17 brand new trains providing almost 4,800 extra seats
more than 25,000 additional seats for morning peak time passengers every week by the end of the contract
- free wi-fi at stations and on board trains
- an enhanced compensation system, meaning customers who use smart tickets will automatically receive compensation if their train is delayed
over £30 million invested in improving stations, including Fenchurch Street and Barking
- complete step-free access at all stations, providing improved accessibility for people with limited mobility and parents with buggies and push chairs
- more than 200 new car parking spaces and £457,000 invested in improving cycling facilities and accessibility at stations
http://maps.dft.gov.uk/essex-thameside/
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/Breaking-News
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Old June 28th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #10839
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It's all first world housing and infrastructure and stuff.
Seen some of the developments going up in Stratford?
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Old June 28th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #10840
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Seen some of the developments going up in Stratford?
Is is a tin shack made of corrugated metal? Then it's first world housing.
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