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Old February 5th, 2015, 07:35 PM   #12861
potto
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well it was the policy of the British people to depopulate its urban centres in the first place and then invite lots of foreign immigrants to do the work that they didn't want to do, dumping them in the urban decay that was left behind (it was cheap). And still it is the policy of the British people to indulge in wide spread Nimbyism and vote for consumerism over infrastructure investment. And yet the British complain about the economic success of reborn cities and blame foreign people on lack of investment. Talk about choking on your own cake!
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Old February 5th, 2015, 07:57 PM   #12862
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what a load of unfounded nonsense, this isn't a fact. It's your opinion and a very uneducated one at that.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 07:58 PM   #12863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB1 View Post
I think you just haven't realised what my point is.


I understood the point fine. You said, "London's British born population are a minority"... and stated that to be true, when it isn't. What you didn't clarify with your post, but I guessed you meant anyway was London's white population, insinuating that to be British you had to be white.

This isn't the early 1900's anymore.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:00 PM   #12864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
It's all very well to celebrate London's multicultural mix, and to be open to change, but there's no disguising the fact that London's previous waves of immigrants were small compared to it's total population. Recent decades have seen an unprecedented acceleration of immigration that has seen London change rapidly from a predominantly British city (albeit with substantial minorities) to one where the majority of inhabitants are of non-British descent. This is a profound change, and comes with both positive and negative aspects.
Untrue. In the 16th century the biggest single increase in London's population came from immigrant Irish, mostly labourers, who represented 40% of the population growth.

In the latter part of the 17th century, there was a twenty year period where huguenot refugees comprised nearly half of the total growth.

Also, in the period between 1801 and 1815, the population grew at its fastest ever rate, and this was fuelled almost entirely by an expansion of city limits to include Jewish enclaves and African slave neighborhoods.

The change we're witnessing now is not unprecedented. And what does 'non-British descent' even mean? there was a time when a Welshman living in the city was of non-British descent. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with a person's family heritage being from another country. This is the United Kingdom, a country of countries. We're all immigrants by definition.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:01 PM   #12865
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Lets get back to the actual thread topic.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:07 PM   #12866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
I understood the point fine. You said, "London's British born population are a minority"... and stated that to be true, when it isn't. What you didn't clarify with your post, but I guessed you meant anyway was London's white population, insinuating that to be British you had to be white.

This isn't the early 1900's anymore.
I also said in the post, maybe this is where inno4321 is basing his post on. I wasn't insinuating British = white but rather my earlier post could be inno4321 reasoning in thinking it is a problem.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:11 PM   #12867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potto View Post
well it was the policy of the British people to depopulate its urban centres in the first place and then invite lots of foreign immigrants to do the work that they didn't want to do, dumping them in the urban decay that was left behind (it was cheap). And still it is the policy of the British people to indulge in wide spread Nimbyism and vote for consumerism over infrastructure investment. And yet the British complain about the economic success of reborn cities and blame foreign people on lack of investment. Talk about choking on your own cake!
That seems to be a very loaded version of history, full of loathing (or self-loathing?) for things British.

I think it's British tolerance that makes this melting pot of cultures possible. It's British rule of law and non-corrupt stable government that creates the favourable conditions so conducive to economic success, and so attractive to foreign investment and talent, in turn drawing yet more moths to the flame.

The way you've attributed all the things you dislike about London on "the British", ignoring the essential Britishness of the infrastructure on which London's success is built, strikes me as typical of Western liberal self-loathing.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:15 PM   #12868
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Please... Stop ✋
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:21 PM   #12869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
Untrue. In the 16th century the biggest single increase in London's population came from immigrant Irish, mostly labourers, who represented 40% of the population growth.

In the latter part of the 17th century, there was a twenty year period where huguenot refugees comprised nearly half of the total growth.

Also, in the period between 1801 and 1815, the population grew at its fastest ever rate, and this was fuelled almost entirely by an expansion of city limits to include Jewish enclaves and African slave neighborhoods.

The change we're witnessing now is not unprecedented. And what does 'non-British descent' even mean? there was a time when a Welshman living in the city was of non-British descent. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with a person's family heritage being from another country. This is the United Kingdom, a country of countries. We're all immigrants by definition.
Immigrants are either born abroad, or to parents who were. You cease to be an "immigrant" after you've been settled in a place for a few generations.

Irish and huguenots come from our immediate neighbours. Ireland was part of Britain for centuries, so wasn't even foreign. When has Wales ever been non-British? And 40% of growth doesn't mean 40% of the population.

"African slave neighbourhoods" my arse! Before the Empire Windrush, London's black community was absolutely tiny.

London has had immigrants before, but it's the height of bullshit to pretend that its current state is anything other than unprecedented.
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Last edited by Langur; February 5th, 2015 at 08:45 PM.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:33 PM   #12870
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London is a city established by southern Europeans, becoming an important port for international trade through the ages, once capital of a world-encompassing empire, now an international centre of finance, culture, media and so on.

It's an international city by nature, with its dynamism, diversity, cohesiveness and cosmopolitanism being amongst its greatest strengths. The few that insist otherwise would be wise to rethink their prejudice. If one has a personal preference for homogeneity then that's fine, however don't use it as the basis for ill-thought criticism of London's cosmopolitan nature.

The appropriate place for this discussion is The Demographics Thread in the London forum.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:39 PM   #12871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
I understood the point fine. You said, "London's British born population are a minority"... and stated that to be true, when it isn't. What you didn't clarify with your post, but I guessed you meant anyway was London's white population, insinuating that to be British you had to be white.

This isn't the early 1900's anymore.
"British" doesn't have to mean exclusively "white" of course not. But you are twisting words here. The point is that London no longer feels "British" for whatever context you take that to mean. Certainly not for people who recall back to the 1980s. If whole classes of school children in the east end are wearing Islamic dress, then one can only assume in 20 years time this city will be radically changed for.... well who knows. That is completely different to the immigration that went on in this country and specifically London in years gone by.

You can talk about the Irish, or the Jews but to me the integration of these people was quite seamless. I don't feel a cohesive spirit alive in London today. I'm not solely putting the blame on mass immigration for that, but I don't think it is a particularly helpful phenomenon for social cohesion either
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:42 PM   #12872
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The only ones being prejudiced is Potto and inno4321. Talking about immigration and demographics isn't racist nor bigoted. I'm in favour of immigration but not mass immigration.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:46 PM   #12873
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http://www.theguardian.com/cities/20...ndon-underline
This sounds very interesting.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:50 PM   #12874
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And there is nothing wrong with someone claiming they don't feel totally ok about sitting on a train where everyone around them is talking in a foreign language. This, I believe was not what was intended for London, and no city anywhere in the world would that be acceptable. This society is breaking up. People can delude themselves that it's not all they want, but the man on the street will usually beg to differ
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:56 PM   #12875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB1 View Post
That sounds like a great idea to me unless they is something I'm not seeing.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:59 PM   #12876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB1 View Post
The only ones being prejudiced is Potto and inno4321. Talking about immigration and demographics isn't racist nor bigoted. I'm in favour of immigration but not mass immigration.
Yourself and SalaciousCrumb post falsities usually associated with those that are. Whether it be that there's "whole classes in Islamic dress" here, or that London is "majority foreign born", or that there's no "cohesive nature" and so forth. All statements typical of folks that certainly haven't lived here, using their discomfort with cosmopolitanism to create said falsities. Those statements are UKIP-leaflet worthy.

If Londoners overwhelmingly state that London's dynamism, diversity, cohesiveness and cosmopolitanism are amongst its greatest strengths, who's an outsider to say otherwise? As I've posted elsewhere, London hasn't been better in terms of vibrancy, safety, cosmopolitanism, cultural offerings, attractions, dining, cleanliness, diversions, transport and so on than it is now. If yourself and SalaciousCrumb believe that this city is headed in the opposite direction, you don't have to visit.

Use The Demographics Thread in the London forum to further air your opinion.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:59 PM   #12877
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obviously the would be a few issues to work out but imo, this would be amazing.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 09:12 PM   #12878
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I'm sorry SE9 but I'm allowed to talk about my Capital city but plz don't claim these things aren't true when they are plenty of evidence to back them up and can be seen in boroughs like tower hamlets. We live in a democracy, which allows independent thought, furthermore I haven't singled out a particular race or someone of a particular religious background. Clearly you've made an assumption of what my particular race is.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 09:14 PM   #12879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
Yourself and SalaciousCrumb post falsities usually associated with those that are. Whether it be that there's "whole classes in Islamic dress" here, or that London is "majority foreign born", or that there's no "cohesive nature" and so forth. All statements typical of folks that certainly haven't lived here, using their discomfort with cosmopolitanism to create said falsities. Those statements are UKIP-leaflet worthy.

If Londoners overwhelmingly state that London's dynamism, diversity, cohesiveness and cosmopolitanism are amongst its greatest strengths, who's an outsider to say otherwise? As I've posted elsewhere, London hasn't been better in terms of vibrancy, safety, cosmopolitanism, cultural offerings, attractions, dining, cleanliness, diversions, transport and so on than it is now. If yourself and SalaciousCrumb believe that this city is headed in the opposite direction, you don't have to visit.
SE9 I appreciate your updates on this thread of the impressive building work going on in London at the moment, but I have to say you do talk quite a bit of tosh on the subject of Londons demographics. Still let's not fall out over it. Just accept people can have and in fact are entitled to different opinions to that of your own. It's a big world out there.

And for the record I am a born and bred Londoner (although only just inside the M25) and have worked in the capital since 1989. So let's not play that game.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 09:25 PM   #12880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalaciousCrumb View Post
SE9 I appreciate your updates on this thread of the impressive building work going on in London at the moment, but I have to say you do talk quite a bit of tosh on the subject of Londons demographics. Still let's not fall out over it. Just accept people can have and in fact are entitled to different opinions to that of your own. It's a big world out there.

And for the record I am a born and bred Londoner (although only just inside the M25) and have worked in the capital since 1989. So let's not play that game.
And I believe that you're talking tosh on the subject of London's demographics, hence the creation of the phrase 'let's agree to disagree'. I said that it's fine if you're comfortable with homogeneity, just don't use it to create falsities.

If you're appreciative of the project & construction updates in this thread, then continue your condemnation of London's cosmopolitanism in The Demographics Thread.
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