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Old March 24th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #13581
SomeKindOfBug
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People always do this. They conflate London with Paris or Barcelona or Vienna, or all the other European cities that have preserved the past and become museums to their former greatness.

In five hundred years, there will be people crying out to save the Shard from demolition, or picketing the Greater London Authority to save, ironically enough, the Greater London Authority HQ.

London isn't a museum. It's an engine. Only the most worthwhile of structures will be saved from the march of progress. Nobody's putting a glass dome on St Pauls. Or Painting the Houses of Parliament red. London holds onto its past just enough to keep it interesting, while improving every day. If you want mawkish sentimentality, go visit Liverpool, it's their stock and trade.

Every time someone completely overexaggerates how much of London's past is being destroyed, I just shake my head. Not only is it untrue, but it's also a complete misunderstanding of what makes the city so great.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 04:22 PM   #13582
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The Lighthouse | King's Cross N1

London forum thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=505188

Official website: N/A



Project facts
  • Address: 283-297 Pentonville Road and 370-380 Grays Inn Road, London N1
  • Developer: UK Real Estate
  • Architect: Latitude Architects
  • Floorspace: 2,000m²
  • Floors: 5



Construction progress at the upper levels of the Lighthouse, to be ready for occupation in early autumn. Photo by potto:

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Old March 24th, 2015, 04:31 PM   #13583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
Coming from a German?

Your ancestors are probably the biggest criminals in European history for destroying "human heritage" architecture across the continent. Indeed, would you like a list of London's glorious old buildings lots to the wars?
Sorry, fella, but that comment is out of order. Isn't it about time that Brits grew up a bit and didn't mention the war (copyright John Cleese) every second time that they disagreed with a German? The destruction inflicted on London's buildings as a consequence of the Blitz has nothing to do with what we're talking about in this discussion - namely, the loss of old buildings because of an unholy alliance between developers and councils. Yours is, frankly, a crass analogy.

And by the way, since you mention it, it's arguable that the allied bombing of German cities (notably Dresden and Cologne) later in the war destroyed far more buildings of importance than those destroyed by the Luftwaffe in London

Quote:
I agree that what can be saved, should be saved to a degree.. but as a Londoner, I do not want (touristic nostalgia) from preventing my home from pushing forward and looking to the future.
London is perfectly capable of pushing forward and looking to the future without demolishing the kind of buildings that have been posted over the last page or two of this thread. It's a nonsense to argue otherwise.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 04:36 PM   #13584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by london lad View Post
It’s interesting that in the thousands of buildings being redeveloped and or refurbished across London ( a city of 1,572 sq km) the same people post the same pictures of very few older buildings that have been demolished in the last 8-10 years to try and misrepresent that London is under siege and being pulled down on a vast scale when as the pictures show it is the exception rather than the norm as it’s the same old pictures posted again and again.

Anyone would think they have some sort of agenda
That's fair enough.

Nevertheless, there is equally no doubt that some old and beautiful buildings have been demolished for no good reason other than a developer's greed and a council's compliance.

And even just the one such instance is one too many.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 04:38 PM   #13585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB View Post
London is perfectly capable of pushing forward and looking to the future without demolishing the kind of buildings that have been posted over the last page or two of this thread. It's a nonsense to argue otherwise.
Well the Tottenham Court Road buildings had to be, so Crossrail could happen.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 04:43 PM   #13586
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Well the Tottenham Court Road buildings had to be, so Crossrail could happen.
Indeed.

I have no argument with that development - albeit that it is a shame to lose the old buildings.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 05:24 PM   #13587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
Coming from a German?

Your ancestors are probably the biggest criminals in European history for destroying "human heritage" architecture across the continent. Indeed, would you like a list of London's glorious old buildings lots to the wars?

I agree that what can be saved, should be saved to a degree.. but as a Londoner, I do not want (touristic nostalgia) from preventing my home from pushing forward and looking to the future.
You're being a nutter in saying I'm in any way responsible for what former generations of Germans did. I'm only partly German anyway, but even with 100% German ancestry I'd be insulted by what you just wrote. The British Empire did some hella lot of awful crimes to countries across the globe, too. And the Brits levelled much of the once beloved world heritage German cities (Dresden, Nuremberg, Hildesheim, Kassel, Brunswick, Würzburg, Berlin, you name it). And I also mentioned that London lost a lot due to the war, but also "thanks" to stubborn modernist post-war planners.

London should and does look to the future, but there's no need to weaken some of its strongest intact pre-war neighbourhoods, absolutely none. It's not like space is so limited that these rather compact areas need to be ramboozled. When at the same time, oceans of low density townhouse or solitary building quarters pop up since decades.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #13588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
You're being a nutter in saying I'm in any way responsible for what former generations of Germans did. I'm only partly German anyway, but even with 100% German ancestry I'd be insulted by what you just wrote. The British Empire did some hella lot of awful crimes to countries across the globe, too. And the Brits levelled much of the once beloved world heritage German cities (Dresden, Nuremberg, Hildesheim, Kassel, Brunswick, Würzburg, Berlin, you name it). And I also mentioned that London lost a lot due to the war, but also "thanks" to stubborn modernist post-war planners.

London should and does look to the future, but there's no need to weaken some of its strongest intact pre-war neighbourhoods, absolutely none. It's not like space is so limited that these rather compact areas need to be ramboozled. When at the same time, oceans of low density townhouse or solitary building quarters pop up since decades.
I apologise, erbse, for LDN N7's comments. We're not all like that. At least some of us aren't still living in the 1940s.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 06:09 PM   #13589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
You're being a nutter in saying I'm in any way responsible for what former generations of Germans did. I'm only partly German anyway, but even with 100% German ancestry I'd be insulted by what you just wrote.
Obviously I didn't say you were responsible for the war, as for being insulted, Germans tend to bury their heads in the sand about those years, but there's no washing it away.. accept it and allow its use in debate. As a subject, it shouldn't be taboo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
The British Empire did some hella lot of awful crimes to countries across the globe, too.
At least we accept our history, we are our own biggest critics over everything, especially the Empire, however, we were talking about Europe and architecture destruction… not murder and pillage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
And the Brits levelled much of the once beloved world heritage German cities (Dresden, Nuremberg, Hildesheim, Kassel, Brunswick, Würzburg, Berlin, you name it).
A huge loss yes… but compared to what was destroyed across the European continent? Across many countries. There is no special sorrow to be held for Germany above all others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
London should and does look to the future, but there's no need to weaken some of its strongest intact pre-war neighbourhoods, absolutely none.

It isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by n0varikur View Post
I apologise, erbse, for LDN N7's comments. We're not all like that. At least some of us aren't still living in the 1940s.
Don't apologise for me thank you very much.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 06:32 PM   #13590
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The Astoria and surrounding area was an absolute dump and was vital to making Crossrail work - yeah we all had great memories in the Astoria but its hey day was well behind it and frankly it wasn't a great venue to listen to music in - nostalgic yes but not fit for purpose.

I love the London we live in now, keeping the best of the old and future, of course there will always be the odd loss that is hard to swallow (Kings College - Strand) but the balance of preservation vs demolition isn't even an issue.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 06:35 PM   #13591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
Coming from a German?

Your ancestors are probably the biggest criminals in European history for destroying "human heritage" architecture across the continent. Indeed, would you like a list of London's glorious old buildings lots to the wars?

I agree that what can be saved, should be saved to a degree.. but as a Londoner, I do not want (touristic nostalgia) from preventing my home from pushing forward and looking to the future.
I can't believe I'm reading this!

Erbse genuinely cares about the quality of European cities and is indiscriminate about which cities he shows an interest in. His ideas are absolutely sound and reflect current thinking in urban design, planning and sustainability. London has made a lot of mistakes in the past where cultural and built heritage has been destroyed by a few, benefiting a few in the short term and to the detriment of the city as a whole and as a long-term loss to all Londoners. We all know we shouldn't repeat these past mistakes that came from short-term thinking.

Wanting to maintain the finite resource that is our historic environment is NOT nostalgic. It is about maintaining sustainable buildings that have a long life span built-in and maintaining London's character. You'll find that all our planning policies in the UK support this idea.

And as we all know it was Planners, developers and Architects who had the greatest impact on our cities - not bombs or war. Whereas in Germany it was our bombs that erased the cities leaving their population's grieving for the identity that was torn away from them. Strangely uninformed xenophobic comments like LDNN7s are not welcome on this forum.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 06:42 PM   #13592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
Obviously I didn't say you were responsible for the war, as for being insulted, Germans tend to bury their heads in the sand about those years, but there's no washing it away.. accept it and allow its use in debate. As a subject, it shouldn't be taboo.



At least we accept our history, we are our own biggest critics over everything, especially the Empire, however, we were talking about Europe and architecture destruction… not murder and pillage.



A huge loss yes… but compared to what was destroyed across the European continent? Across many countries. There is no special sorrow to be held for Germany above all others.
****'s sake, mate......

Stop it. It's embarrassing.

And you'll probably earn yourself at least a deserved stern warning and possibly a banning if you carry on.

You're better than this.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 06:51 PM   #13593
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This 'London is losing it's architectual heritage' debate is being seriously over exaggerated guys. Calm down.

Do I agree with whats going on at Leicester Square? Hell no. Personally, I think it's a mistake

Tottenham Court Road? Yeah it's a shame but it's a neccesarry cost.


Apart from those and a few other developments, London is not losing it's architectual heritage whatsoever. London is developing leaps and bounds whilst still keeping it's amazing and beautiful architectual heritage completely in-tact.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 06:56 PM   #13594
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Fair enough, I will leave it. It just irritates the crap out of me when people rumble on in spouting crap about what is happening in London when they don't even live here.

Erbse is a good member of this forum. But he does harp on about some pretty menial stuff and likes to make out there's far more of an issue about London's architectural direction than the reality.

As for the war and what was lost. It happened… deal with it. History is lost in cities around the world all the time.. New York never had a problem with sweeping its past away when progress was to be made and it is still the worlds greatest city.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 07:22 PM   #13595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
There's plenty of projects in London that involve the restoration of old buildings, such as the German Gymnasium on this very page.

They just don't receive post-after-post of reaction.
Omg, so true, one or two anonymous old buildings are demolished and people freak out. It's not like they're demolishing the Tower Bridge or something.

Meanwhile, they're on a manhunt for mid-century buildings (even the good ones) and purging most of them from existance, yet no-one bats an eye. They act just like the 1960s developers they promised they would never copy. They give the exact same excuses as the 60s developers, that they're "obsolete and architectually out of date". Irony on an almost poetic scale.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 07:22 PM   #13596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
Fair enough, I will leave it. It just irritates the crap out of me when people rumble on in spouting crap about what is happening in London when they don't even live here.

Erbse is a good member of this forum. But he does harp on about some pretty menial stuff and likes to make out there's far more of an issue about London's architectural direction than the reality.

As for the war and what was lost. It happened… deal with it. History is lost in cities around the world all the time.. New York never had a problem with sweeping its past away when progress was to be made and it is still the worlds greatest city.
And in leaving it are you going to consider apologizing to the OP?
I happen to concur with your opinion re London's heritage not being at risk, but your little Englander anti-German reference is misguided. In fact you do London a disservice - the city doesn't need the defence of the parochial.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 07:55 PM   #13597
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I'm not gonna get into that guilt or whatever discussion again, I think we've made our point and LDN N7 you're obviously unable to realise you're being really pathetic. I for one don't need apologies, just the case rested. You might rethink your attitude of condemning a whole nation and its people for their past.

ThatOneGuy: We've had that discussion a few times and I don't think post-war architecture is disguised in general. There's really good stuff especially from the 50s, 60s and 80s that is rightfully beloved. However, many structures have torn once homogenous, harmonious and intact quarters apart and seem inappropriate for their surroundings. London has quite a chunk of such buildings; while I also agree that some of the contrasting additions can do more good than harm, it really depends on the specific example. All in all, London is a bustling vibrant and visually very interesting city. I think I made it very clear that I'm longing to sustain and develop this character, argument-wise at least.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 09:34 PM   #13598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDN N7 View Post
Coming from a German?

Your ancestors are probably the biggest criminals in European history for destroying "human heritage" architecture across the continent. Indeed, would you like a list of London's glorious old buildings lots to the wars?

I agree that what can be saved, should be saved to a degree.. but as a Londoner, I do not want (touristic nostalgia) from preventing my home from pushing forward and looking to the future.
Your argument is irrelevant and quite inflammatory - no need for this nonsense here.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 10:54 PM   #13599
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People are born innocent... What's going on with that North Quay project at Canary Wharf? That seems to have had nothing happen for ages.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 11:03 PM   #13600
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The Silvertown | Silvertown E16

London forum thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1637869

Official website: http://www.thesilvertownlondon.com/



Project facts
  • Address: Silvertown Quays, London E16
  • Developer: The Silvertown Partnership
  • Architect: Fletcher Priest
  • Cost: £3.5 billion ($5.6bn)
  • Homes: 2,500
  • Retail space: 278,700m²
  • Commercial space: 185,800m²





Scaffolding climbing the Millennium Mills building, undergoing restoration as part of the Silvertown Quays regeneration. Photos by Matt Brown:


Millennium Mills from afar by Matt From London, on Flickr


Millennium Mills by Matt From London, on Flickr
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