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Old August 17th, 2015, 02:10 AM   #15161
Stravinsky
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Well, that's the thing with wars, you see. They tend to decimate the building stock of cities which find themselves at the thick end, as London did from September 1940 to May 1941. During the Blitz, more than one million buildings were destroyed or damaged beyond repair. The V1 and V2 rocket attacks between June 1944 and March 1945 caused further destruction or extensive damage to tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) more buildings.

Paris, too, suffered some bomb damage (though nothing like as much as London). But it was mostly in the industrial suburbs. And I think you'll find that, in those areas, Paris was rebuilt with plenty of modern monstrosities of its own. It's just that hardly anyone, other than those who live in those areas, ever gets to see those buildings because most people are, understandably, only interested in the beautiful (and beautifully preserved and non bomb damaged) centre of Paris.
Usual victim mentality.

German cities suffered way more destruction than London yet today they are beautiful, not ugly.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 02:41 AM   #15162
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^ No axe to grind one way or the other re German cities, but your observation, like much else, is purely subjective.
As someone who has followed architectural developments in London since the 1960s, I'd say, London has never looked better. The city's relatively recent embrace of unabashedly contemporary architecture has for the most part been for the good. The juxtaposition of the old and the new makes for a far more interesting and vital townscape.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 03:45 AM   #15163
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Usual victim mentality.

German cities suffered way more destruction than London yet today they are beautiful, not ugly.
Victim mentality?



WTF? What a ******* stupid thing to say! You clearly didn't read or understand my post properly if that is what you took from it.

So let me take you through it slowly, so you might understand:

In the post to which I replied, you claimed that London "pull(ed) down half of (its) buildings after the war because (it) grew fond of brutalism and anonymous office blocks".

I merely pointed out the idiocy of such a statement. London didn't "pull down" half its buildings. It had its buildings blown to smithereens or burnt to cinders by German bombs, rockets and incendiary devices.

And since you directly compared London and Paris in your post, I subsequently pointed out that Paris, too, had suffered considerable bomb damage and that it too had built some monstrosities in those areas in the aftermath of the war.

So you pointing out that German cities suffered even more by way of bomb damage is a total non sequitur (I never claimed otherwise). Likewise, your claim that those German cities are more beautiful than London (I'm no fan of London's brutalist post war architecture). Unlike you, I'm not engaged in a pissing contest - much as you might want me to be. I merely corrected a moronic inaccuracy in your original post.

So try not to be so utterly dimwitted henceforward, eh? There's a good lad.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 12:20 PM   #15164
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"German cities suffered way more destruction than London yet today they are beautiful, not ugly"

Having lived in Frankfurt for over two years and also travelled alot in Germany that just aint true. Big German cities that were bombed are pretty similar to big English cities that were bombed. They all have a lot of post ww2 crap with some nice historical bits here and there. Some medium sized cities like Dresden are rebuilding parts of their old town cores but these areas would be tiny blips in a city the size of London.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 12:28 PM   #15165
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Originally Posted by JimB View Post
Victim mentality?



WTF? What a ******* stupid thing to say! You clearly didn't read or understand my post properly if that is what you took from it.

So let me take you through it slowly, so you might understand:

In the post to which I replied, you claimed that London "pull(ed) down half of (its) buildings after the war because (it) grew fond of brutalism and anonymous office blocks".

I merely pointed out the idiocy of such a statement. London didn't "pull down" half its buildings. It had its buildings blown to smithereens or burnt to cinders by German bombs, rockets and incendiary devices.

And since you directly compared London and Paris in your post, I subsequently pointed out that Paris, too, had suffered considerable bomb damage and that it too had built some monstrosities in those areas in the aftermath of the war.

So you pointing out that German cities suffered even more by way of bomb damage is a total non sequitur (I never claimed otherwise). Likewise, your claim that those German cities are more beautiful than London (I'm no fan of London's brutalist post war architecture). Unlike you, I'm not engaged in a pissing contest - much as you might want me to be. I merely corrected a moronic inaccuracy in your original post.

So try not to be so utterly dimwitted henceforward, eh? There's a good lad.
Actually, we did knock down a LOT of buildings after the war because, unlike Germany, we were fixated on building a bright shiny future, while Germany chose, in many situations to rebuild and repair what was lost. While the UK was in the grips of reinventing the wheel - trying to build anti-urban cities of blocks in green space and streets in the sky, Germany rebuilt largely with traditional street blocks and repaired their urban structures. So that's why German cities are quite smart and traditional, and ours show all the different experiments in architecture and city building that have happened since the war - for good or ill.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 12:37 PM   #15166
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Actually, we did knock down a LOT of buildings after the war because, unlike Germany, we were fixated on building a bright shiny future, while Germany chose, in many situations to rebuild and repair what was lost. While the UK was in the grips of reinventing the wheel - trying to build anti-urban cities of blocks in green space and streets in the sky, Germany rebuilt largely with traditional street blocks and repaired their urban structures. So that's why German cities are quite smart and traditional, and ours show all the different experiments in architecture and city building that have happened since the war - for good or ill.
Complete bullshit...

You have obviously never been to East Germany or Berlin for that matter!
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Old August 17th, 2015, 01:02 PM   #15167
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Berlin is not pretty.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 01:08 PM   #15168
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What exactly was in the current area of the Canary Wharf before? And this are generally... It looks amazing now though!

It was once the busiest port in the world. Closed in the 80's.. rebuilt as a business district in the 90's, now its one of the worlds top financial districts along with the City of London. One of the legacies of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher that did succeed.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 01:39 PM   #15169
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Berlin is not pretty.
I was going to say... Berlin has some gorgeous spots and is a nice City. But no way is it in the same league as London!
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Old August 17th, 2015, 01:43 PM   #15170
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There are way too many sour people on this forum...

Oh well, it still doesn't change the fact that London is the greatest City in the world {which is subjective of course, but hey ho}.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 02:00 PM   #15171
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Complete bullshit...

You have obviously never been to East Germany or Berlin for that matter!
I have been, many times.
You might not know that the DDR rebuilt a lot of old towns after the war. They also experimented with modern development styles like everywhere did. But repair of existing urban fabric was the preferred approach in city centres. So, not "complete bullshit".
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Old August 17th, 2015, 02:11 PM   #15172
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Oh not this again , can we please leave this city v city bs alone and get back to the point of this forum. If London isn't for you, find a city forum that you're passionate about and let us who do love London to enjoy it without child like arguments over my city is better than yours rubbish.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 04:24 PM   #15173
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I have a bit of a suspicion that perhaps some of those who so readily attack new developments here, are prompted less by a genuine concern for the old, or the 'intrusion' of the new, but a kind of sour grapes over the kind of dynamism (for better or worse) they suggest.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 05:26 PM   #15174
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Ouf.

It's hard to build new stuff when you have the densest city in the Western world and you didn't pull down half of your buildings after the war because you grew fond of brutalism and anonymous office blocks.

This is as central as Trafalgar Square anyway:

Nonsense. I was wondering why there was such a big difference in construction between London and paris, they are two similar size cities so close to each other but on such different trajectories.
At first I thought it could be because of heritage issues in paris, but that didn't explain why the approved towers in paris were not being built, economics are, as always i think the reason why towers are rising in london but but not paris.

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Old August 17th, 2015, 05:35 PM   #15175
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Post war redevelopment in Britain especially in the 60s was an absolute desaster for British towns and cities. I wish we'd had the desire to rebuild as they did in Germany. I've got to say though I've been to Cologne and Aachen,and they were also full of post war dross. The differance between us and the continent was the continued destruction and general disregard of anything old. If it wasn't for people like John Betjamin for example St Pancras would have gone the way of Euston.
There is still a definate distain and suspician by architects for the traditional in this country which I think is relevent.
But whats really interesting is that in London the lessons of the past have been learnt, and were now seeing as at Kings cross for example the city being developed on a huge scale in a diverse and exciting way. Sorry to say it but nowhere in Europe comes close to it in scale and ambition.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 05:43 PM   #15176
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Originally Posted by hugh View Post
I have a bit of a suspicion that perhaps some of those who so readily attack new developments here, are prompted less by a genuine concern for the old, or the 'intrusion' of the new, but a kind of sour grapes over the kind of dynamism (for better or worse) they suggest.
Yup. Oculentus has a genuine dislike of modern architecture (I disagree with him, but there's no arguing about taste). Stravinsky, by contrast, is just jealous.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 07:19 PM   #15177
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Nonsense. I was wondering why there was such a big difference in construction between London and paris, they are two similar size cities so close to each other but on such different trajectories.
At first I thought it could be because of heritage issues in paris, but that didn't explain why the approved towers in paris were not being built, economics are, as always i think the reason why towers are rising in london but but not paris.
I don't think towers will work how they are working in London. Putting towers in Paris city proper just looks weird to me, as where in London, it just has more of the form. I think one reason we don't have as many tower projects as London is because there is so much bureaucracy in France and it takes so long to approve projects and get people to move out bla bla bla... It's almost annoying now just waiting for all this.

Besides the skyscrapers, I think what's happening in the Paris metropole is more ground development if you understand. Like gentrification, expanding outwards and building the whole new line of metros and trains with universities and modern tech facilities popping up along those areas.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 08:12 PM   #15178
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I don't think towers will work how they are working in London. Putting towers in Paris city proper just looks weird to me, as where in London, it just has more of the form. I think one reason we don't have as many tower projects as London is because there is so much bureaucracy in France and it takes so long to approve projects and get people to move out bla bla bla... It's almost annoying now just waiting for all this.
That always used to be the case in London too.

And I agree that building skyscrapers in central Paris wouldn't work. Haussmann's legacy is principally what makes Paris Paris. No need to tinker with it. What Paris did, after all, was merely a more planned and more comprehensive version of "pulling down half its buildings" (quote attributable to Stravinsky ) and replacing them with a modern vision - albeit, beginning a century earlier than London's post war programme of redevelopment.

Some might call Paris a museum city but, if so, what a wonderful and vibrant museum. Paris doesn't have to be the same as London nor London the same as Paris for them both to be great, global cities. Vive la difference!
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Old August 17th, 2015, 08:21 PM   #15179
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Actually, we did knock down a LOT of buildings after the war because, unlike Germany, we were fixated on building a bright shiny future, while Germany chose, in many situations to rebuild and repair what was lost. While the UK was in the grips of reinventing the wheel - trying to build anti-urban cities of blocks in green space and streets in the sky, Germany rebuilt largely with traditional street blocks and repaired their urban structures. So that's why German cities are quite smart and traditional, and ours show all the different experiments in architecture and city building that have happened since the war - for good or ill.
The vast majority of buildings knocked down after the war were already badly bomb or fire damaged - to the point of being unsafe and beyond repair.

Those that were intact, or at least structurally sound, but still knocked down were comparatively few and not, mostly, of great architectural or historical importance. They were generally perceived to be slum housing - or nigh on. Not that that's to excuse the appalling mess that post war planners and architects made of the rebuilding job.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 08:56 PM   #15180
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That always used to be the case in London too.

And I agree that building skyscrapers in central Paris wouldn't work. Haussmann's legacy is principally what makes Paris Paris. No need to tinker with it. What Paris did, after all, was merely a more planned and more comprehensive version of "pulling down half its buildings" (quote attributable to Stravinsky ) and replacing them with a modern vision - albeit, beginning a century earlier than London's post war programme of redevelopment.

Some might call Paris a museum city but, if so, what a wonderful and vibrant museum. Paris doesn't have to be the same as London nor London the same as Paris for them both to be great, global cities. Vive la difference!
Exactly, the modern parts of London and the modern projects in general integrate right into the middle of the city unlike in Paris where most of it is done OUT of Paris proper.

Anyways one question, is Paramount London under construction right now?
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