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Old December 11th, 2015, 04:06 PM   #16401
Core Rising
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There's a very good interactive article in the Guardian today, showing the forces behind the City of London future skyline.

Click the link below for a skyline flyby, and do visit the article.

http://cdn.theguardian.tv/interactiv...iz_4M_H264.mp4

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddes...ow-interactive



In purple, the proposed public viewing galleries and restaurant spaces.





Shown in purple here are the protected viewing corridors of St Paul's Cathedral, and the Tower of London, from various parks and vantage points across London.

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Old December 11th, 2015, 04:25 PM   #16402
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Crossrail will take over from Heathrow connect. The poor transport argument is not valid.
Gatwick Rail Access (at present and by 2018)
  • South Coast (Brighton , Eastbourne and such like)
  • To the west via Reading
  • To central london (victoria) and through trains such as thameslink to KXSP
  • Through London towards Bedford but also Cambridge and Peterborough from 2018.

Heathrow Rail Access (from 2018 to 2033)
  • Heathrow Express and Connect services teminate at Paddington.
  • A fully operational Crossrail was due in 2017 , its now due in December 2019.
  • Construction for the Western rail access should start later this decade and not due to be fully operational until 2023.
  • Southern Rail Access , was recently shelved. Its currently a pipe dream and should begin passenger services in 2033.

Given the obvious environmental negatives of air travel , public transport is the best method to mitigate this.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 04:36 PM   #16403
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The third runway is anticipated to open around 2030, so those timescales are irrelevant.

You have also missed out the Piccadilly line which serves Heathrow, and the substantial coach and bus network, which is far better at Heathrow because of its location.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 04:58 PM   #16404
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The third runway is anticipated to open around 2030, so those timescales are irrelevant.

You have also missed out the Piccadilly line which serves Heathrow, and the substantial coach and bus network, which is far better at Heathrow because of its location.
Around 2030...

In a previous post I trashed the notion of a pre 2030 date.

The Piccadilly is inadequate for Heathrow travellers; with no dedicated baggage room and journey times easily an hour if going to the West End or KXSP. It's havoc during peak times because of the opportunity cost associated with baggage or commuter traffic.

The buses are fairly local and used more by non-Heathrow users. As it serves residental lead areas for the most part.

Journey times would reduce and capacity is greater if the passengers whom used coaches instead used trains. Many of the coaches to and from Heathrow go to areas that will be eventually served by the Southern and Western Rail Access albeit not until 2023 and 2033 respectively. Gatwick already has this in place

Heathrow has also refused to rule out night flights

Given that a decision on a 3rd runway is overdue , aviation capacity will quickly outstrip supply once the runway is built. Addational runways will be needed elsewhere , heathrow is a patch and mend solution at best.

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Old December 11th, 2015, 05:18 PM   #16405
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Around 2030...

In a previous post I trashed the notion of a pre 2030 date.
Your opinion does not align with that of Ferrovial. I think I'll take the opinion of the owner and operator over your personal opinion. It might also interest you to know that Heathrow have been buying up all the houses they can over the last decade in anticipation of the third runway. I think they own around 200 at present.


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Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
The Piccadilly is inadequate for Heathrow travellers; with no dedicated baggage room and journey times easily an hour if going to the West End or KXSP. It's havoc during peak times because of the opportunity cost associated with baggage or commuter traffic.
It is inadequate, hence why it will largely be superseded by crossrail. However with over 14 million passengers using the three underground stations at Heathrow every year (almost as many passengers as Gatwick rail station!), It is a key public transport route that you shouldn't overlook.


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The buses are fairly local and used more by non-Heathrow users.
Now I know you are clutching straws. Heathrow bus station is the busiest bus and coach station in the UK. It provides over 1600 services, to 1000 destinations every day. It's also located on the airport site itself, between terminals 1, 2 and 3, so there's virtually no local use of these facilities, unless it is for the airport itself. Gatwick by comparison hasn't got anything close to the same level of service, either in passenger numbers or routes served.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 05:56 PM   #16406
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Your opinion does not align with that of Ferrovial. I think I'll take the opinion of the owner and operator over your personal opinion. It might also interest you to know that Heathrow have been buying up all the houses they can over the last decade in anticipation of the third runway. I think they own around 200 at present.
Collectively there are around 700 homes in Longford and Harmondsworth which will go , most of Sipson will be uninhabitable. Ferrioval own less than 1/3 of the homes at present. Not to mention the belt of businesses along the Bath Road which will go and the Heathrow detention Center add a handfull of listed buildings of various importance too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
It is inadequate, hence why it will largely be superseded by crossrail. However with over 14 million passengers using the three underground stations at Heathrow every year (almost as many passengers as Gatwick rail station!), It is a key public transport route that you shouldn't overlook.
Heathrow refuse to pay for the roads and railway improvements needed , TFL estimate the cost of doing so is £15bn. Never place confidence on government estimations This excludes the Western and Southern Rail Access.

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Now I know you are clutching straws. Heathrow bus station is the busiest bus and coach station in the UK. It provides over 1600 services, to 1000 destinations every day. It's also located on the airport site itself, between terminals 1, 2 and 3, so there's virtually no local use of these facilities, unless it is for the airport itself. Gatwick by comparison hasn't got anything close to the same level of service, either in passenger numbers or routes served.
Actually London Victoria has 200,000 bus departures annually. In case you didn't know Heathrow Central (for Terminals 1-3) is formed of two bus stations the coach station you mentioned , but also the bus station for local destinations (such as Uxbridge , Greenford , Kingston , Croydon and the odd night bus).

The Air Pollution already exceeds EU maximums (They come over ere and telling us to stop sending as many people to an early grave ). Clearly increased flights will olny make this worse , Gatwick stays within this limit.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 06:29 PM   #16407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
The Piccadilly is inadequate for Heathrow travellers; with no dedicated baggage room and journey times easily an hour if going to the West End or KXSP. It's havoc during peak times because of the opportunity cost associated with baggage or commuter traffic.
As inadequate as it may seem, the Piccadilly line is still an excellent transport option into Heathrow. I fly in and out several times a year, and the vast majority of times the Piccadilly line is simply the easiest way into Heathrow from where I stay, let alone the cheapest.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 06:39 PM   #16408
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As inadequate as it may seem, the Piccadilly line is still an excellent transport option into Heathrow. I fly in and out several times a year, and the vast majority of times the Piccadilly line is simply the easiest way into Heathrow from where I stay, let alone the cheapest.
My argument was that the Piccadilly for all its merits , is it not built for usage by air travellers. However Crossrail will in this respect be a game changer as it connects up with many important interchanges and CBDs.

Despite its Zone 6 location , the dedicated Heathrow Connect / Express are allowed to charge inflated prices. But that exclusivity expires in 2023. The boss of the Heathrow express is quaking in her boots that it's days are numbered.

This article by Christain Wolmar (a highly regarded transport journalist in the UK) explains everything you need to know :

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/201...at-controller/
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Old December 11th, 2015, 07:22 PM   #16409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Collectively there are around 700 homes in Longford and Harmondsworth which will go , most of Sipson will be uninhabitable. Ferrioval own less than 1/3 of the homes at present. Not to mention the belt of businesses along the Bath Road which will go and the Heathrow detention Center add a handfull of listed buildings of various importance too.
And that affects the 2030 completion date how exactly? The remaining properties will be compulsory purchased, and above market rate paid for the remaining occupiers. You've gone off topic here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Heathrow refuse to pay for the roads and railway improvements needed , TFL estimate the cost of doing so is £15bn. Never place confidence on government estimations This excludes the Western and Southern Rail Access.
And why should Heathrow pay for the upgrades? Heathrow is national infrastructure; expanding the airport has between £112-211bn of economic benefits for the wider economy. As the government will reap those benefits through higher taxation, it stands to reason that the government should pay for the needed transport upgrades. Ferrovial will also benefit, but no where near enough to pay for the transport upgrades themselves.

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Actually London Victoria has 200,000 bus departures annually. In case you didn't know Heathrow Central (for Terminals 1-3) is formed of two bus stations the coach station you mentioned , but aslo the bus station for local destinations (such as Uxbridge , Greenford , Kingston , Croydon and the odd night bus).
London Victoria is the busiest coach station in London, with around a quarter of a million departures annually. Heathrow central is the busiest bus and coach station in the UK with over half a million departures annually. It is a major public transport interchage which cannot be overlooked when comparing the public transport offerings of both Heathrow and Gatwick.

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The Air Pollution already exceeds EU maximums (They come over ere and telling us to stop sending as many people to an early grave ). Clearly increased planes will olny make this worse , Gatwick stays within this limit.
Gatwick tout the environmental impacts solely because they know they don't have as good an economic case for expansion.

Heathrow economic benefits: £112-211bn

Gatwick economic benefits: £42-127bn
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Old December 11th, 2015, 08:07 PM   #16410
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And that affects the 2030 completion date how exactly? The remaining properties will be compulsory purchased, and above market rate paid for the remaining occupiers. You've gone off topic here.
Given the anti-Heathrow group halted expansion previously , they know that they can do it and they'll do it again. You also seem to forget that diverting two critically important motorways is so minor endeavour let alone the disruption it'll cause. Heathrow will have to build the new runway over the M25 Motorway , To make this possible, Heathrow will have to create 4 new separate tunnels for the M25. On top of this, the M4 will also have to be widened to 14 lanes in total , a little bit of Los Angeles in SE England. Moving on , The M25 roadworks could take up to four years to complete consequently six million journeys will be delayed every month, causing millions of pounds of lost business and air pollution and finally no contingency plans have been seen and there will be no compensation for delays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
And why should Heathrow pay for the upgrades? Heathrow is national infrastructure; expanding the airport has between £112-211bn of economic benefits for the wider economy. As the government will reap those benefits through higher taxation, it stands to reason that the government should pay for the needed transport upgrades. Ferrovial will also benefit, but no where near enough to pay for the transport upgrades themselves.
The economic forcasts made by Heathrow need to be taken with a silo worth of salt. A revised fiqure of the total works is around £18.6bn is estimated , to repeat myself by a government body . The sheer arrogance by Heathrow to expect the public to stump up at least £5bn , for something the majority will hardly use. Further the bill could be deemed an anti-competitive, unlawful Government subsidy under EU law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
London Victoria is the busiest coach station in London, with around a quarter of a million departures annually. Heathrow central is the busiest bus and coach station in the UK with over half a million departures annually. It is a major public transport interchage which cannot be overlooked when comparing the public transport offerings of both Heathrow and Gatwick.
Even if Heathrows dodgy digits are correct , £18.6bn is fairly insignificant to pay for the cost of the infrastructure which without Heathrow can't function. Gatwick estimates the upgrades are £7.8bn , to which will be all be funded privately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
Gatwick tout the environmental impacts solely because they know they don't have as good an economic case for expansion.

Heathrow economic benefits: £112-211bn

Gatwick economic benefits: £42-127bn
I think it's impressive that an airport can expand and without exceeding air pollution limits , dont you care about your fellow human beings ?

For me air which is; clean , breathable and won't reduce your life expectancy is an fundamental human right like clean running water and shelter. Don't let me hinder some already high net work individuals from making slightly less money as they would otherwise do.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 08:52 PM   #16411
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Core Rising and I are, coincidentally, both familiar users of Hartsfield-Jackson in Atlanta. They built their 5th runway above the I-285, the Atlanta ring-road equivalent to our M25. As a feat of engineering, building a third runway at Heathrow is nowhere near as adventurous as the engineering feats of Victorian London, such as Bazalgette's sewerage system, or today's London eg. Crossrail.

Given that the expansion of Heathrow is more beneficial for London and the country, those anti-Heathrow voices to which you refer are outnumbered by those pro-Heathrow:



Aviation
  • Aberdeen International Airport
  • All Nippon Airways
  • BAA Limited
  • British Airways
  • Delta Air Lines
  • easyjet
  • Flying Matters
  • Glasgow Airport
  • Leeds Bradford International Airport
  • Liverpool John Lennon Airport
  • Newcastle International Airport
  • Newquay Airport
  • Singapore Airlines
  • Virgin Atlantic


Business and trade
  • British International Freight Association
  • Business Visits and Events Partnership (BVEP)
  • The Confederation of British Industry (CBI)
  • The British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) and local chambers of commerce, including London and West London
  • The EEF
  • The Federation of Small Businesses (FSB)
  • The Freight Transport Association
  • The Institute of Directors (IoD)
  • SEGRO


Politics and unions
  • George Osborne (Chancellor)
  • Patrick McLoughlin (Transport Secretary)
  • Sajid Javid (Business Secretary)
  • Harriet Harman (London area MP, Labour)
  • Tessa Jowell (London area MP, Labour)
  • David Lammy (London area MP, Labour)
  • Nick Herbert (Gatwick area MP, Conservative)
  • Nus Ghani (Gatwick area MP, Conservative)
  • The Highland Council
  • Reading Borough Council
  • Slough Borough Council
  • The GMB Union
  • Trades Union Congress (TUC)
  • Unite the Union

And so on. Furthermore, a poll of MPs by IPSOS/MORI before the final Airports Commission assessment, found that:

Quote:
Q: Of these options, which ONE do you think is the BEST option for solving the issue of hub airport capacity in the UK?
  • Third runway at Heathrow: 58%
  • A new Thames Estuary Airport: 7%
  • A second runway at Gatwick: 14%
  • Lengthening an existing Heathrow runway: 4%
  • Do nothing: 13%
  • Don't know: 4%
Quote:
Q: In your opinion, how likely or unlikely would a third runway at Heathrow get parliamentary approval?
  • Likely: 91%
  • Unlikely: 9%
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Old December 11th, 2015, 09:10 PM   #16412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
Core Rising and I are, coincidentally, both familiar users of Hartsfield-Jackson in Atlanta. They built their 5th runway above the I-285, the Atlanta ring-road equivalent to our M25. As a feat of engineering, building a third runway at Heathrow is nowhere near as adventurous as the engineering feats of Victorian London, such as Bazalgette's sewerage system.

Given that the expansion of Heathrow is more beneficial for London and the country, those anti-Heathrow voices to which you refer are outnumbered by those pro-Heathrow:



Aviation
  • Aberdeen International Airport
  • All Nippon Airways
  • BAA Limited
  • British Airways
  • Delta Air Lines
  • easyjet
  • Flying Matters
  • Glasgow Airport
  • Leeds Bradford International Airport
  • Liverpool John Lennon Airport
  • Newcastle International Airport
  • Newquay Airport
  • Singapore Airlines
  • Virgin Atlantic


Business and trade
  • British International Freight Association
  • Business Visits and Events Partnership (BVEP)
  • The Confederation of British Industry (CBI)
  • The British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) and local chambers of commerce, including London and West London
  • The EEF
  • The Federation of Small Businesses (FSB)
  • The Freight Transport Association
  • The Institute of Directors (IoD)
  • SEGRO


Politics and unions
  • George Osborne (Chancellor)
  • Patrick McLoughlin (Transport Secretary)
  • Sajid Javid (Business Secretary)
  • Harriet Harman (London area MP, Labour)
  • Tessa Jowell (London area MP, Labour)
  • David Lammy (London area MP, Labour)
  • Nick Herbert (Gatwick area MP, Conservative)
  • Nus Ghani (Gatwick area MP, Conservative)
  • The Highland Council
  • Reading Borough Council
  • Slough Borough Council
  • The GMB Union
  • Trades Union Congress (TUC)
  • Unite the Union

And so on. Furthermore, a poll of MPs by IPSOS/MORI before the final Airports Commission assessment, found that:
You seem eager to throw that list of beneficiaries from an expanded Heathrow at any given opportunity , to readily for my liking. You wouldn't look as silly , if you showed balance and suggested people who will be negatively impacted by Heathrow expansion.

Core Rising accused me of clutching at straws but you sir are trying to draw comparions between London Heathrow and Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta. The line between reality and parody has been crossed.

I am not still convinced despite all the lists and dodgy digits you and core rising throw at me as a smoke screen device , the vast majority of those who support it are going to benefit from the scheme have vested interests. This whole rhetoric spouted by the pro Heathrow lobby (yes air and noise pollution will increase but that's fine you'll get some extra money in 15yrs time and let's maintain the monopolistic anti competitive status quo whilst where at it).

Given that the Paris climate talks are on-going , are we in a position to push for action when we are flirting with airport expansion and having olny recently slashed the subsides for renewables ?

Hastily copy and pasting from Wikipedia and not referencing is never an good look

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expa...athrow_Airport
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Old December 11th, 2015, 10:46 PM   #16413
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And SE9 I would just like to add that probably the best option was excluded by the airport commission.

Expanding Birmingham Airport. It already has the potential to expand by 20 million passengers and has enough space to get up to 50m should it require. It's severely underused and with HS2 actually is quicker to get to for most than Heathrow.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 12:44 AM   #16414
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Birmingham would never have worked.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 12:46 AM   #16415
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Expanding Birmingham wouldn't solve London's capacity crisis. In the manner that hubs operate, airlines don't just shift operations to a non-hub airport. Which is why Heathrow is at capacity whereas the rest (Stanstead, Gatwick, Luton etc) are not.

Ultimately, Birmingham Airport should evolve to suit the needs of Birmingham and the West Midlands and the London airports should evolve to suit the requirements of London and the South East.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 12:52 AM   #16416
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You seem eager to throw that list of beneficiaries from an expanded Heathrow at any given opportunity , to readily for my liking. You wouldn't look as silly , if you showed balance and suggested people who will be negatively impacted by Heathrow expansion.
It's a good reality check for the detractors.

It's not just the aviation sector that's in favour of Heathrow expansion. The wider business and industry sectors, the trade unions, the majority of local residents and the majority of MP's are too.

That's without even mentioning the Airports Commission which spent years investigating and evaluating before coming to its conclusion.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 01:07 AM   #16417
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Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Core Rising accused me of clutching at straws but you sir are trying to draw comparions between London Heathrow and Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta. The line between reality and parody has been crossed.
You are clutching at straws by only comparing the heavy rail offerings of Heathrow and Gatwick to prove that Gatwick's public transport is superior, whilst deliberately leaving out the tube and coach/bus offerings at Heathrow which beat Gatwick hands down.

When all is said and done, Heathrow estimate that 40% of passengers arrive via public transport, whilst Gatwick estimate 44% of passengers arrive there via public transport. Gatwick have that self sourced 4% difference as one of the key benefits of their second runway offering over Heathrow's third. (Birmingham by comparison falls well short of both, only 23%). It's a mute point at the end of the day, as Heathrow already has better public transport provision, and serves more customers in absolute terms. - And in absolute terms, the benefits of Heathrow expansion are far greater than the expansion of Gatwick. That is why Heathrow is backed by the the aviation, business and trade organisations which SE9 listed.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 01:18 AM   #16418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
Expanding Birmingham wouldn't solve London's capacity crisis. In the manner that hubs operate, airlines don't just shift operations to a non-hub airport. Which is why Heathrow is at capacity whereas the rest (Stanstead, Gatwick, Luton etc) are not.

Ultimately, Birmingham Airport should evolve to suit the needs of Birmingham and the West Midlands and the London airports should evolve to suit the requirements of London and the South East.
Is London and the South East that popular with International Leisure and Business Travelers?

EDIT: I don't really know what expansion I want, I think the expansion for either of the airports is good and bad for multiple reasons.

I live in Horley, Surrey so not to far from Gatwick (in fact a couple minutes by train and I'm there) I'll probably give my two penny's later.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 01:28 AM   #16419
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Is London and the South East that popular with International Leisure and Business Travelers?
Just taking Heathrow's figures:

Percentage of business travelers in 2014: 30% (22.2 million)

Percentage of other leisure travelers in 2014: 70% (51.2 million)

Percentage of international passengers in 2014: 93% (68.1 million)

Now consider you are a foreign leisure traveler, looking to holiday in London. When you come to book your flight and your options are either Heathrow (Located in the city boundary, with a cheap trains serving most of central London), or Birmingham International for London (includes an expensive 110 miles train journey to London Euston, followed by a further metro journey to where you actually want to go), which do you think you would choose.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 01:53 AM   #16420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
Just taking Heathrow's figures:

Percentage of business travelers in 2014: 30% (22.2 million)

Percentage of other leisure travelers in 2014: 70% (51.2 million)

Now consider you are a foreign leisure traveler, looking to holiday in London. When you come to book your flight and your options are either Heathrow (Located in the city boundary, with a cheap trains serving most of central London), or Birmingham International for London (includes an expensive 110 miles train journey to London Euston, followed by a further metro journey to where you actually want to go), which do you think you would choose.
Wow, that's amazing. It's embarrassing I didn't know that, a undergraduate international hospitality management student who had recently completed a assignment on London's tourism industry, specifically talking about the hotel industry and veering of slightly into the airport and air travel industry and the benefits of it in relation to hotels and other business within their proximity. PS. must of had one to many drinks before heading back home from Oxford - trying to get sober. STUDENT LIFE

In all honesty I think an expansion regardless of where it may happen is good. I like to think that maybe Gatwick might get it but then I remember gatwick is served by one major road (M23) served by one major train (Southern - London Victoria to Brighton etc) and served by one major bus locally (the Fastway bus) If I take into account all of this I wonder how will the passenger arrive and depart the airport, how will the staff even arrive and depart. I don't think gatwick will get the expansion either, we've heavily opposed against fracking round here, we've heavily opposed (or in the process of doing so) against a business park in the town - which I do believe may inspire the expansion, but back to the original point, considering all of this, I am in doubt of Gatwick really getting any expansion, too much strong opposition.

I want the expansion cause it will help generate the local economy and businesses. (And my dad has a restaurant in town which i'm sure can reap the benefits of an expansion.) Again though my hopes are very little, I still would like it too happen.

Have you guys not heard that they are expanding the oyster card, so it's now being bought down to gatwick so the tap and travel style service will be available to travellers of all sorts so that should be benefit.

I have my environmental concern but I believe that they can mitigate the problems very easily.
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