daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > City/Metro Compilations

City/Metro Compilations Help report active highrise/urban developments occurring in your city to the global SSC community.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 12th, 2015, 11:52 AM   #16421
PeterManc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 810
Likes (Received): 800

I am very fond of Heathrow for a number of reasons - even its old tatty carpets which always make me feel that i am back in the UK (in a good way!).

However, we are told that around 9500 people are dying each year in London as a result of pollution. That is 100000 deaths per decade. The airplanes and airports play their role in this, but especially Heathrow. As a result, expanding at Heathrow strikes me as simple insanity and should simply be rejected as not a civilised option in 2015.

As for the Piccadilly Line, I have taken this to Heathrow numerous times to save money. But it is one of the world's most unpleasant and longest journies to the airport. The fact that it serves Heathrow should not be seen as a positive factor. We need an airport served by a fast train service and non-rip-off train pricing. Gatwick is better able to offer this (though I would prefer cheaper airport fares for Gatwick to be introduced if possible).
PeterManc no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 12th, 2015, 02:19 PM   #16422
.Adam
Registered User
 
.Adam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Posts: 2,980
Likes (Received): 777

But there is a faster option - you just have to pay for it.
Also Heathrow is achievable by black cab - the same journey to Gatwick has never been smooth in my experience.

Heathrow is a hub and needs to be expanded, the air quality in London is down to a whole host of reasons, it may sound tough but the greater good of expanding Heathrow and the economy should take priority.
.Adam no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #16423
Mr Cladding
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Posts: 7,001
Likes (Received): 10970

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Adam View Post
But there is a faster option - you just have to pay for it.
Also Heathrow is achievable by black cab - the same journey to Gatwick has never been smooth in my experience.

Heathrow is a hub and needs to be expanded, the air quality in London is down to a whole host of reasons, it may sound tough but the greater good of expanding Heathrow and the economy should take priority.
Yeah **** local residents , don't stop a select group of people from making even more money. Screw future generations who don't have a right to a liveable climate. Peoples homes matter more than numbers on a ******* spreadsheet.

For the sake of competition , there needs to be two major airports. Putting all your runways in the same place is an disincentive for greater competition.
__________________

Last edited by Mr Cladding; December 12th, 2015 at 04:18 PM.
Mr Cladding no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 02:53 PM   #16424
JamieUK
Registered User
 
JamieUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wakefield
Posts: 489
Likes (Received): 300

The stronger economic argument shows that more people will benefit from the Heathrow than Gatwick. Like if you had a situation were you have opinion A and B and A benefits 10 people and B benefits 5. Saying to a supporter of A, you don't care about those 5 people would be sophistry.
JamieUK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 04:00 PM   #16425
Mr Cladding
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Posts: 7,001
Likes (Received): 10970

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieUK View Post
The stronger economic argument shows that more people will benefit from the Heathrow than Gatwick. Like if you had a situation were you have opinion A and B and A benefits 10 people and B benefits 5. Saying to a supporter of A, you don't care about those 5 people would be sophistry.
But the cost of flying into Gatwick is lower as compared to Heathrow. The crooks at Heathrow due to the presence of two runways are allowed to charge what they like because of thier favourable market position. Further trains built to deal with air passengers take you into central London with Gatwick as compared to Heathrow who leave you at the fringes at Paddington , Crossrail won't be fully operational until late 2019 , connections to Clapham JCT and Wateloo are unlikely until at least 2030. Gatwick offers direct links to Clapham JCT and and a interchange to get to Waterloo.

Further from early 2016 you can use your Oyster card to pay for your fare for Gatwick, despite being in West Sussex. The dedicated Heathrow trains from Paddington are not in the oyster fare zone and won't be the case until around 2022 despite Heathrow being within the London Borough of Hillingdon. When the Ripoff Express began operation in 1997 they were given a 25yr franchise (exclusivity from competiton) , thus they can charge inflated prices for the Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow Terminals section. When you're about to emark on a international flight the last thing you want to is spend your time on a cramped tube train trundling through the suburbs of West London. Heathrow unlike its European Compeitors was not planned , more of a long run patch and mend solution.
__________________

AbidM liked this post

Last edited by Mr Cladding; December 12th, 2015 at 05:20 PM.
Mr Cladding no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 05:11 PM   #16426
AbidM
Registered User
 
AbidM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: London/Sunamganj Sadar
Posts: 1,869
Likes (Received): 1342

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
But the cost of flying into Gatwick is lower as compared to Heathrow. The crooks at Heathrow due to the presence of two runways are allowed to charge what they like because of thier favourable market position. Further trains built to deal with air passengers take you into central London with Gatwick as compared to Heathrow who leave you at the fringes at Paddington , Crossrail won't be fully operational until late 2019 , connections to Clapham JCT and Wateloo are unlikely until at least 2030. Gatwick offers direct links to Clapham JCT and and a interchange to get to Waterloo.

Further from early 2016 you can use your Oyster card to pay for your fare for Gatwick, despite being in West Sussex. The dedicated Heathrow trains from Paddington are not in the oyster fare zone and won't be the case until around 2022 despite Heathrow being within the London Borough of Hillingdon. When the Ripoff Express began operation in 1997 they were given a 25yr franchise (exclusivity from competiton) , thus they can charge inflated prices for the Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow Terminals section. When you're about to emark on a international flight the last thing you want to is spend your time on a cramped tube train trundling through the suburbs of West London.
I agree with everything you had said, however trains can be a bit of pain in the arse too, there's no doubt about that.

Edit: I would like to see fare prices coming down, that would be a nice thought to consider.
__________________
"We're all victims of the architect. Architecture is the only art that you can't help but feel. You can avoid paintings, you can avoid music, and you can even avoid history. But good luck getting away from architecture." - Humans of New York
AbidM no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #16427
Core Rising
Ampersands & What
 
Core Rising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London
Posts: 7,072

You would be taken more seriously if you didn't keep misrepresenting the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
But the cost of flying into Gatwick is lower as compared to Heathrow. The crooks at Heathrow due to the presence of two runways are allowed to charge what they like because of thier favourable market position.
Landing charges are capped by the regulator at both Heathrow and Gatwick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Further trains built to deal with air passengers take you into central London with Gatwick as compared to Heathrow who leave you at the fringes at Paddington , Crossrail won't be fully operational until late 2019 , connections to Clapham JCT and Wateloo are unlikely until at least 2030. Gatwick offers direct links to Clapham JCT and and a interchange to get to Waterloo.
Paddington is a central London terminus, so is Victoria. Heathrow connections to Paddington are not some disadvantage compared to Gatwicks connections to Victoria.

In context of the second or third runway, Crossrail will be fully operational a decade before whichever runway opens. Crossrail will offer vastly superior London connections over Gatwick. - connections which are broadly already served by the Piccadilly line, which you continually disregard in a vain attempt to sideline Heathrow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Further from early 2016 you can use your Oyster card to pay for your fare for Gatwick, despite being in West Sussex. The dedicated Heathrow trains from Paddington are not in the oyster fare zone and won't be the case until around 2022 despite Heathrow being within the London Borough of Hillingdon. When the Ripoff Express began operation in 1997 they were given a 25yr franchise (exclusivity from competiton) , thus they can charge inflated prices for the Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow Terminals section. When you're about to emark on a international flight the last thing you want to is spend your time on a cramped tube train trundling through the suburbs of West London.
Crossrail will superseded both the Piccadilly line and Heathrow express as the primary rail service when it opens in 2018. It is part of the oyster card network, and once again, this argument is pointless as the third runway won't open until 2030.

You have also completely ignored Heathrow Connect, which offers direct services from Paddington to Heathrow at around half the price of the express service. And whilst we are on the topic of cost, Paddington to Heathrow on heavy rail is generally cheaper than Victoria to Gatwick.
Core Rising no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 07:09 PM   #16428
stevekeiretsu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bristol
Posts: 4,557
Likes (Received): 11734

Hey guys http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1462748
__________________

My London development & construction photos: • by area/projectby year
My Urban Showcase threads: • VallettaLjubljanaFunchalOrkneyBristolLisbonLondon
stevekeiretsu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 07:17 PM   #16429
Mr Cladding
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Posts: 7,001
Likes (Received): 10970

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekeiretsu View Post
I know I post on that thread regularly , but some people just don't get it.
Mr Cladding no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 07:23 PM   #16430
SE9
South East Nine
 
SE9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Nairobi
Posts: 33,913
Likes (Received): 60576

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Yeah **** local residents....

Local residents:


Heathrow Local Area Polling
Populous | August 2015


Link


Q.1 Taking everything into account, based on what you have seen, read and heard, how positive or negative would you say you feel towards Heathrow Airport?

Positive: 57% | Neutral: 34% | Negative: 8% | Don't Know: 1%


______________________________________________________


Q.2 At the moment, Heathrow Airport has two runways which currently operate at maximum capacity. The government is considering whether to allow Heathrow to build a third runway to increase the airport's capacity. Taking everything you know into account, do you currently support or oppose expanding Heathrow?

Support: 50% | Neutral: 15% | Oppose: 33% | Don't Know: 1%



Local residents tend to agree with the position of British business, industry, aviation and trade unions on this matter.
__________________
-

cameronrex, Seoul_Korea, erbse, Union Man liked this post
SE9 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 08:01 PM   #16431
Mr Cladding
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Posts: 7,001
Likes (Received): 10970

Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
Local residents:


Heathrow Local Area Polling
Populous | August 2015


Link


Q.1 Taking everything into account, based on what you have seen, read and heard, how positive or negative would you say you feel towards Heathrow Airport?

Positive: 57% | Neutral: 34% | Negative: 8% | Don't Know: 1%


______________________________________________________


Q.2 At the moment, Heathrow Airport has two runways which currently operate at maximum capacity. The government is considering whether to allow Heathrow to build a third runway to increase the airport's capacity. Taking everything you know into account, do you currently support or oppose expanding Heathrow?

Support: 50% | Neutral: 15% | Oppose: 33% | Don't Know: 1%



Local residents tend to agree with the position of British business, industry, aviation and trade unions on this matter.
Again you forget to realise the third party spill over effects of airport expansion.

You can have airport expansion with reduced disruption and environmental degradation by building at Gatwick instead and have an new runway by 2025 instead of post 2030. Air pollution levels around Heathrow exceed EU limits and attempts to purposefully inflict harm onto others is illegal and immoral.

Unless you are an climate change septic any airport expansion will mean that we miss our reduction targets by 2025 on 1990 levels. This clear disregard and negligence for future generations is deeply worrying.

Pro-Heathrow expansion reaction : Well Actually more flights and subsequently planes reduces air pollution.
__________________

AbidM liked this post

Last edited by Mr Cladding; December 12th, 2015 at 08:29 PM.
Mr Cladding no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 08:27 PM   #16432
SE9
South East Nine
 
SE9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Nairobi
Posts: 33,913
Likes (Received): 60576

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Again you forget to realise the third party spill over effects of airport expansion.

You can have airport expansion with reduced disruption and environmental degradation by building at Gatwick instead and have an new runway by 2025 instead of post 2030. Air pollution levels around Heathrow exceed EU limits and attempts to purposefully inflict harm onto others is illegal and immoral.

Unless you an climate change septic any airport expansion will mean that we miss our reduction targets by 2025 on 1990 levels. This clear disregard and negligence for future generations is deeply worrying.
No I haven't.

Emotive language with respect to 'attempts to purposely inflict harm onto others' does your cause no favours. It implies that the majority of residents near Heathrow would wish to 'inflict harm upon themselves' for supporting airport expansion. No, people have taken all points into consideration and come to a conclusion. This debate is rather like the debate surrounding river crossings in east London, where the current crossings are at capacity, locals cry out for them and the benefits of them would be multi-fold.

What is often forgotten is the amount of time that Heathrow aircraft spend idling, waiting for a take-off slot. The amount of time that Heathrow aircraft spend circling, waiting for a landing slot.
__________________
-

JamieUK, LDN_EUROPE, stop that liked this post
SE9 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 08:45 PM   #16433
Tellvis
Living the dream...
 
Tellvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: London - Peckham - Sidcup
Posts: 594
Likes (Received): 379

Sorry guys but this is the London projects and construction showcase thread?
Should this debate about our hugely embarrassing airports situation be conducted in a thread in the Transport and infrastructure section?
__________________

stevekeiretsu liked this post
Tellvis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 09:00 PM   #16434
SE9
South East Nine
 
SE9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Nairobi
Posts: 33,913
Likes (Received): 60576

This debate concerns the delay in construction of an important infrastructure project?
__________________
-
SE9 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 09:12 PM   #16435
Mr Cladding
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Posts: 7,001
Likes (Received): 10970

Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
No I haven't.

Emotive language with respect to 'attempts to purposely inflict harm onto others' does your cause no favours. It implies that the majority of residents near Heathrow would wish to 'inflict harm upon themselves' for supporting airport expansion. No, people have taken all points into consideration and come to a conclusion. This debate is rather like the debate surrounding river crossings in east London, where the current crossings are at capacity, locals cry out for them and the benefits of them would be multi-fold.

What is often forgotten is the amount of time that Heathrow aircraft spend idling, waiting for a take-off slot. The amount of time that Heathrow aircraft spend circling, waiting for a landing slot.
The huge environmental impacts of Heathrow expansion is the elephant in the room and frankly more important than whether you or I can jet off to more destinations in 10-15yrs time.

Your recent posts suggest that you side with me in regards to the environmental impacts of expansion , but you have failed to make the link between damage limitation and favouring Heathrow other Gatwick.

Politically Gatwick is by far less politically toxic than Heathrow ever was and is better placed to mitigate the impacts of avation. Heathrow expansion would spend years in the legal system and push up delivery costs and makes a pre 2030 delivery date increasingly realistic.

Wiping out 700 homes alongside countless listed buildings , belongs in the history books of Dickensian Britain and not in a country which pre-claims that is a bastion for civil liberties.

Last edited by Mr Cladding; December 12th, 2015 at 09:36 PM.
Mr Cladding no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 09:13 PM   #16436
Tellvis
Living the dream...
 
Tellvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: London - Peckham - Sidcup
Posts: 594
Likes (Received): 379

Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
This debate concerns the delay in construction of an important infrastructure project?
I do not deny that one little bit, but to have the debate on this thread? we are a laughing stock around the world regarding our airport dilemma as it is.
I always regarded this his thread as a showcase to London's success, but maybe I'm wrong...
Tellvis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2015, 09:17 PM   #16437
Mr Cladding
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Posts: 7,001
Likes (Received): 10970

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellvis View Post
I do not deny that one little bit, but to have the debate on this thread? we are a laughing stock around the world regarding our airport dilemma as it is.
I always regarded this his thread as a showcase to London's success, but maybe I'm wrong...
Try saying again whilst mentioning 22 Bishopsgate
Mr Cladding no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2015, 12:03 AM   #16438
Core Rising
Ampersands & What
 
Core Rising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London
Posts: 7,072

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Again you forget to realise the third party spill over effects of airport expansion.
A NIMBYs go to response. The greatest benefits are at Heathrow, so you have no other option but to deflect the central issue, instead focusing on the one area where Gatwick can beat Heathrow; the lower environmental impact. It’s worth remembering that both Heathrow and Gatwick are looking to expand capacity by 200,000 flights per year. The absolute increase in emissions should therefore be the same at either airport. However there are some other factors to consider.

As SE9 has mentioned, Heathrow expansion will mean less traffic circling over London, thus lessening the emissions caused by idling.

Gatwick offers lower environmental impact overall, primarily as it will take far longer to fill the extra capacity. This isn’t something to crow about, as it just shows that Gatwick expansion doesn’t offer the same level of economic benefits that Heathrow expansion offers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
You can have airport expansion with reduced disruption and environmental degradation by building at Gatwick instead and have an new runway by 2025 instead of post 2030. Air pollution levels around Heathrow exceed EU limits and attempts to purposefully inflict harm onto others is illegal and immoral.
Gatwick hasn’t breached air pollution levels… yet. However expansion at Gatwick faces the exact same mitigation issues that Heathrow faces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Unless you are an climate change septic any airport expansion will mean that we miss our reduction targets by 2025 on 1990 levels. This clear disregard and negligence for future generations is deeply worrying.

Pro-Heathrow expansion reaction : Well Actually more flights and subsequently planes reduces air pollution.
And yet your reaction is to expand Gatwick, rather than Heathrow. Not no expansion at all! You are a classic NIMBY. Airport expansion is ok, just so long as it isn’t in your back yard. Your central argument comes down to air quality in West London, but you have shown no regard for the air quality of South Londoners or those in Kent and Surrey.

Heathrow is more polluting than Gatwick. That’s a fact. It’s also a result of the success of Heathrow, with its far greater air traffic numbers. It is however a residual concern in the debate, not the central issue. Both airports will struggle to meet air quality levels post expansion. However Heathrow offers the greatest economic benefits, and like Gatwick, it has a plan to reduce air pollution to acceptable levels. The impending fines for breaching environmental limits will make certain of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
The huge environmental impacts of Heathrow expansion is the elephant in the room and frankly more important than whether you or I can jet off to more destinations in 10-15yrs time.
Yet again ignoring the increased environmental impact of Gatwick. Read: air around Heathrow is already polluted. So let’s pollute the air in Surrey, Kent and South London as well!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Politically Gatwick is by far less politically toxic than Heathrow ever was and is better placed to mitigate the impacts of avation. Heathrow expansion would spend years in the legal system and push up delivery costs and makes a pre 2030 delivery date increasingly realistic.
And yet it would still offer far greater economic benefits, which would be recouped in time via taxation. (Assuming we are just talking about the cost to the public purse here).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cladding View Post
Wiping out 700 homes alongside countless listed buildings , belongs in the history books of Dickensian Britain and not in a country which pre-claims that is a bastion for civil liberties.
Countless listed buildings? Heathrow are currently proposing that no listed buildings will be demolished. The rest of that sentence is just NIMBY emotive claptrap as usual.
Core Rising no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2015, 02:00 AM   #16439
stop that
BANNED
 
stop that's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 546

Like most nimbys people that oppose Heathrow expansion are incredibly selfish. London is britains greatest asset, and it's aviation hub status is one of the main things that give it prominence and make it an alpha++ city and maintains it's economic success.

Do the people that oppose it really not care at all about the damage it would do/is doing, to london if it lost its aviation hub status, which it will do if we don't get on with the expansion NOW.

These perpetual complainers just pretend that there are no consequences, that london wont be severley damaged if they got their way, or they simply just don't care, don't care about the success/failure of their city and country, it really is poor form. We all accept things for the interest of our countries, to work together for the mutual success of the nation.

Only a sociopath would think that the annoyance of a bit more noise/emissions for a few neighbours is so important that our capitol should sacrifice it's economic future for them. Do they think that they are so incredibly important that a nation of 66 million should sacrifice one of its main assets just so they can have a few minutes less noise.. Ridiculous people.

Last edited by stop that; December 13th, 2015 at 02:06 AM.
stop that no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2015, 10:13 AM   #16440
Quicksilver
Yanukovich nash boh
 
Quicksilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dubai/Chelmsford
Posts: 9,460
Likes (Received): 4814

I don't know any major city with two hub airports. May be Tokyo with Haneda coming into play more but still Narita is the main destination. It's actually impossible as this would defy term "hub" itself. May be it's possible to split traffic between major alliances like One World and Star Alliance but I doubt Star Alliance would agree to leave Heathrow for Gatwick, with One World is out of question for obvious reasons. There is no other options as to expand Heathrow. Second runway at Gatwick would be also nice but I doubt two runways one at Heathrow and one at Gatwick would be allowed anytime soon.

Heathrow is already missing on some major routes like to Manila, Jakarta, some indian and chinese cities (which competitors are happily offering) and these routes just won't come to Gatwick even with two or three runways there.

Last edited by Quicksilver; December 13th, 2015 at 10:22 AM.
Quicksilver no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
development, england, london, united kingdom

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu