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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:10 PM   #81
Ortziribeltz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Italic View Post
Touristman i guess you are italian like me but i don't understand why your position is so negative about Benidorm .Benidorm was planned like a holiday-city so it's normal there are a lot of buildings for a lot of people if sombody wants spend holidays in a natural place he can go in another place like Greece islands ,Sardinia,Sicily. Instead If somebody likes discos,comfort,hotels,residences or playas with more people goes to Benidorm,Rimini or other pleaces like these. Don't forget also in Italy we have a lot of speculation in regions like Sicily Sardinia and Calabria near plurimillenarium temples like in Agrigento or near natural paradise in Campania.
What is speculation? We always heard this word in a lot of conversations, but I was wondering what speculation you are talking about. Normally 99% of the people use the word "speculation" to describe anything that is taller than 10 floors.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:29 PM   #82
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well i don't use speculation to describe anything is taller than 10 floors . I like skyscrapers so it's not my position. The good example for what i mean for "speculation" is what happend in some cities of sicily where near millenarium magna grecias temples there are megavillas and others buildings that disturbing all the historic skyline .
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:33 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ortziribeltz View Post
Can I ask what are you doing on a forum called SKYSCRAPERcity?
By the way, we were talking in English, so I don't know why you all of the sudden you rudely use Italian.
1) I like only good skyscrapers.
2) I was asking to Italic to explain my opinion because I don't find the correct english words. However, I understand you but you don't understand me, so take patience, because I don't live in England.
Do you have some other problems? Accept my opinion or ask me to go away.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:37 PM   #84
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yes touristman was just asking me to translate in english his position but i think spanish people understood the same cause our languages italian and espanol are actually similair
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ortziribeltz View Post
What is speculation? We always heard this word in a lot of conversations, but I was wondering what speculation you are talking about. Normally 99% of the people use the word "speculation" to describe anything that is taller than 10 floors.
"Speculazione" means that you build a skyscraper and disfigure the landscape only for lucrative activity (for esample, hotel, casinò). I don't know if the english word "speculation" means the same thing.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:47 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouristMan View Post
"Speculazione" means that you build a skyscraper and disfigure the landscape only for lucrative activity (for esample, hotel, casinò). I don't know if the english word "speculation" means the same thing.
No, in English the word speculation means.....
To make theories or guesses or to engage in risky commercial transactions.
EG: the stock market.
Or I could speculate what you are thinking and what you will write in your next post.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 11:10 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouristMan View Post
1) I like only good skyscrapers.
2) I was asking to Italic to explain my opinion because I don't find the correct english words. However, I understand you but you don't understand me, so take patience, because I don't live in England.
Do you have some other problems? Accept my opinion or ask me to go away.
If it was meant to be a comment directed to Italic then you should have mentioned it, or at least send him a PM

I'm not the one having problems here, you posted this at this thread "A naturalistic disaster, without urbanistic regulation". For some reason you make a link, tall buildings=bad=they eat children alive=they are against nature=they are built without planning, when it's not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouristMan View Post
"Speculazione" means that you build a skyscraper and disfigure the landscape only for lucrative activity (for esample, hotel, casinò). I don't know if the english word "speculation" means the same thing.
Then speculation can only occur with a skyscraper?. If I built a two floor house in a middle of a hill full of trees and nature is that speculation? By the way, for good or for bad, almost all of us like to earn money, just like those mean skyscraper builders. That's why there is a planning before, to disapprove anything which might not be suitable.

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Sorry, I don't agree with you in the slightest. Yes, there are some towns that have been ruined by some ugly highrises, but there are endless km of stunning Spanish coastline, both built-up or left in a more natural state.
More than 50 or 60% of the Spanish Mediterranean coastline has been already urbanised, at least for the first 500 metres. Part of it was urbanised during the economic-tourist boom of the 1960's and 1970's, when most of the high-rise buildings were built. But a great part of the coastline has been destroyed during the past twenty years, and not exactly by ugly highrises. Developers now are trying to destroy what's left in Almeria, Huelva or Murcia, where countless golf courses and thousands of houses are being planned.

Many people would considered a golf course and a bunch of attached houses next to the sea to be natural (that's what is being built for the past decade). I don't. For some reason ecologists only care when a building surpasses a certain height, they don't seem to care as much when millions of square metres of land are being destroyed every year for low-density complexes.

Benidorm's buildings can be ugly or tacky, in the end, just like any other city around the world. What is unique in Benidorm is the way it was developed, which makes it the most sustainable city in Spain.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 11:40 PM   #88
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I'm not very excited for this "skyscrapers boom" in Benidorm.

I think it's only a big speculation, a total destruction of the original landscape.

Many of that buildings remember me the horrible commieblocks towers built during the 60's and 70's in Italy : low quality, with horrible facades, projected by a whichever architect taked by a whichever street...

They are destroing the landscape to build horrible towers...why?
Only for the tourists of the summer. Stop.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 01:47 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ortziribeltz View Post
Then speculation can only occur with a skyscraper?
NO
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:16 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouristMan View Post
Ok, visto che parli bene l'inglese dammi una mano e spiegà che non si può distruggere spiagge splendide come erano quelle della Spagna con casermoni degni di una borgata di periferia. Non mi piacciono le città di plastica, create solo per attirare soldi, senza anima e senza gente. Non mi piace il turismo pataccaro e cafone su cui la Spagna sta puntando. Benidorm è una città cafona, oltre che finta, l'architettura è di infima qualità. La Spagna vole fà l'ammericana, ma non è l'America (e si vede). Sta perdendo la sua vera anima.
I wouldn't say it is American-style. It is more Ibero-American architecture of the 1970s, you can find it in Portugal, Spain and South America. We had the same problem. it is ugly high-rise architecture, that's why in here, most people don't like skyscrapers, there are lobbies against skyscrapers because of it, currently there are in here discussions about a Spanish real estate company wanting to build a skyscraper, but no-one lets them, I support a glass skyscraper near the current concrete towers in other to make our skyline prettier, but it is virtually impossible, politicians are against it (the mayor and the opposition), they fear people will say they are bad city planners, and because of this Portugal hasn't real high-rises.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 04:27 PM   #91
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Benidorm, the concrete city, that's all I've to say If you go a little to north you can find wonderfull places like those near Moraira, though there is no skyscraper.

Speculation: many city councils in Spain speculate by re-classifying floors from other uses such as sport uses, park uses, natural spaces...
So construction companies pays money (black money) in orther to get licenses, and that is the way the prices are multiplied. Everybody wants a piece of the cake , for them that's a piece of cake
Of course, this happens with +10 stories building, and with a single story ones...

Fortunadly, nowadays, some of them are going to jail because of it.

Last edited by josema_call; May 16th, 2007 at 04:30 PM. Reason: add info
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Old May 17th, 2007, 05:40 PM   #92
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Corruption is rife and always has been within the construction industry, many pesetas and money laundering was exchanged when Spain joined the EU and she adopted the euro as the currency.
The illegal Valencian “land grab” is now going through the European courts, but I don’t agree with you that Benidorm has been allowed to encroach on areas and acres of natural countryside.

We have a saying in the UK, that “you can’t have your cake and eat it,” which means that you cannot have the wealth that the construction industry has provided without paying a price.

The market has now exceeded the thirst for homes in the sun, most homes are built for foreigners and wealthy Spaniards, this has push prices high and now it is virtually impossible for an average Spanish couple to get on the property ladder, they now have to live in rented accommodation, from the wealthy people who buy the new homes/apartments being built.

Some of the buildings in Benidorm are where architects (in the 70’s) cut their teeth and learnt by their mistakes, some of those buildings are being pulled down and modern ones built in their place and that is the point, some are being replaced on the original land instead of building further and further away from the coastline.
The town has managed to increase its population, keep the infrastructure in place and not encroach too far into the surrounding countryside in 40 years, as well as remaining a number one tourist destination.

Benidorm is a working town, it does not close down after the summer, it is a 12 month resort catering for the tourist as well as the permanent population and it depends heavily on the British tourists for its success as a holiday destination.
If the British stopped visiting Benidorm, then the town would not be able to sustain its growth.

The tourists don’t want to walk miles/kilometres to reach the sea/beach, so the only way is to built upwards and keep the buildings compact near the coast.
At this moment, over 13 million euros are being spent on the Poniente side of town giving the promenade/beach a face-lift and creating a park, that is not speculation, it is giving Benidorm a modern image for the 21st century.

You can visit other areas of the Costa Blanca and you will see acres of natural coast and countryside that has been turned into sprawling concrete jungles of detached and semi-detached houses with their own little gardens that are full of foreigners who isolate themselves in these "communities" making "little Britain in Spain", and some never integrating with the Spanish or attempt to learn the language....sad ...so sad!...what a waste of land.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 05:54 PM   #93
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Stop hijacking this thread.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 05:57 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicerón View Post
Stop hijacking this thread.
Have you got a problem with someone wanting a debate.?
What is hijacking a thread when you answer another post.?
Go get a life.! or say something constructive.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 06:10 PM   #95
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This is supposed to be a thread about construction in Benidorm, not what goes on behind the scenes, which is a different ballgame. Stick to the rules, the development threads are here to show updates and talk about construction techniques and such. Thank you.
Other than that, let me congratulate you on your previous contributions to this thread.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 06:50 PM   #96
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Oh forgive me, it seems ok for other posters to talk about golf courses, corruption and other areas of the Costa Blanca and Portugal, but I can’t ?
It seems ok for another poster to say that the boom is for tourists for the summer only, but I can’t post that it is not and give the reason to justify my statement.?
It seems ok for other posters to talk about ugly architecture, but I can’t explain the reasons behind the planning in Benidorm and who is buying the apartments in the property boom and therefore sustaining the Benidorm boom.?
It seems I can't put a debate forward about the environmental differences between a tower block and a sprawling concrete community of foreigners, but others can.?

If you are having a debate about the building boom, then you should be able to discuss the reasons behind the boom, but no problem, I’ll go and find a forum where there is not one rule for one and a rule for the other….other than that, thank you for your acknowledgement of my contribution to this thread.
I won't be making anymore.

Adios.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 08:26 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouristMan View Post
Yes I know, in fact I hate speculation.
Ok, visto che parli bene l'inglese dammi una mano e spiegà che non si può distruggere spiagge splendide come erano quelle della Spagna con casermoni degni di una borgata di periferia. Non mi piacciono le città di plastica, create solo per attirare soldi, senza anima e senza gente. Non mi piace il turismo pataccaro e cafone su cui la Spagna sta puntando. Benidorm è una città cafona, oltre che finta, l'architettura è di infima qualità. La Spagna vole fà l'ammericana, ma non è l'America (e si vede). Sta perdendo la sua vera anima.
I like Tossa de Mar, I HATE Lloret de Mar. This is my personal opinion. And I hate also Benidorm and Torremolinos.
Quote:
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and in English please ?
Maybe you will hate me because I love Benidorm and La Carihuela in Torremolinos,there are no high rise blocks there, but I hate Venice, it is overpriced, over rated and smells.
This is of course my personal opinion too.
These words make me sure, how good is your taste.

Anyway the translation of what Tourist said:

"It's a shame that some beautiful beaches, as those in Spain, have been destroyed by these kind of fugly buildings.I don't like plastic-cities, created only for money, without any aim and people. I dont' like the kind of tourism "pataccaro e cafone" that Spain is going to do. Benidorm is kitsch and the architecture a shame. Spain with places like Benidorm is losing its real aim.I like Tossa de Mar, I HATE Lloret de Mar. This is my personal opinion. And I hate also Benidorm and Torremolinos."
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Old May 17th, 2007, 09:55 PM   #98
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I don't see anything wrong in Looby's posts. The very fabric of Benidorm is the political and commercial motives behind the city and the reasons this town is what it is.

To understand Benidorm, one must understand these forces and I for one thank Looby for his contribution here.

As for the city itself, I am in two minds. I do think most of the towers are of very poor quality of design. This can easily be seen when comparing to other similar cities in the world like Miami Beach or the Gold Coast. But Benidorm is older than the Gold Coast and these lessons have to be learnt sometime.

Looking at the other side, I am very glad Benidorm is there. Here we have a city in Europe, one of the very very few that has embraced highrise living. It is a Hong Kong by the seaside and a very unique place in this continent. I doubt we will see another in our lifetime, and Europe in my opinion would be a little less complete without it.

Benidorm can also work from it's current model. Learn from it's mistakes, and continue development with more interesting architecture and town planning. It does seem to be heading in this direction.

And if it does it right, it will also attract a new breed of permanent residents. Benidorm is well placed to benefit as a base for commuters from Valencia and Alicante, much like the Gold Coast now offers for Brisbane.

There are some changes that I would like to see in this city though.
* It is terribly dry. Yes, I know that's the climate, but many other similar cities in the world with dry climates turn this around with sprinklers. Benidorm really needs more parks, trees and greenery.
* Vacant land, especially within the urban area, should be turned into public parks until construction begins. This is done in many other cities, as there is nothing worse than looking across to a pile of dirt and rubbish that sits for years before the construction begins
* Obvious improvement on apartment designs, and possibly demolition of the worst offenders. Some of the newer apartments are certainly nicer, but this must continue.
* Preserve and renovate the old town. It still exists but very few people know about it, and most tourists never bother to visit. Make a reason for people to go there.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 10:30 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looby View Post
Have you got a problem with someone wanting a debate.?
What is hijacking a thread when you answer another post.?
Go get a life.! or say something constructive.
I don't think Cicerón was talking about you Looby.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 10:51 PM   #100
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Benidorm doesn't have a great architecture, but wtf.. what's the reason why you link this criteria with a bad-planned city?
Classical city planning really looks at planning and disregards design. But nowadays good quality architecture more and more becomes part of city planning. If Benidorm would have more or less good contemporary city planning, the new buildings wouldn't look that terrible as seen on pictures here.

Why such beach cities as Miami or Gold Coast can have mostly quality skyscrapers but Benidorm has mostly ugly buildings???
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