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Old July 14th, 2010, 01:53 AM   #841
coth
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Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
In this day and age, escalators and elevators are no luxury, they are standard equipment for every station. It's not 1915 anymore. And of course they are more expensive than just plain concrete stairs, but they're not "SO expensive". If they can afford to build 400km's of metro and make each station look over-the-top monumental like its 1949 and everything from workforce to material is almost for free, then they can, and have, to afford escalators and elevators.
Looks like we are turning into beginning. I repost what were noted before.
1. Moscow metro is very busy, it's not like Stockholm metro. There is no place for elevators in existent and newly built escalator tunnels.
2. Additional tunneling is too expensive. Building tunnels for 82 stations woudn't cost as 2km. More like as 15-20 km. It's billions and billions of dollars.
3. There are many thing in a much higher priority, like new lines and additional entrances on stations with overcrowded entrances.
4. Cladding makes just 1-2% of all costs. And there is nothing monumental in newly built stations.
5. Since when workforce and materials became free?
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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:17 AM   #842
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Why would it need to be near the escalators-entrance to the station, does it lose something of its functionality by being 50 meters away from it?
About 200 meters away because we are talking about very deep stations. There is no problem to build elevators on shallow stations and all the new shallow stations have them. As for the deep stations, we have to take place of one escalator for some kind of funicular or just to build one more way out. We can not take place of the escalators because there must be at least 4 escalators if there is only one way out. And we can not build the tube wider (for 4 escalators and a funicular) because it will not fit in the station. Maybe the second way outs on Dostoyevskaya and Maryina roshcha will be with 3 escalators and one funicular.

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Of course it would be very hard to do this at old stations, but when they build a new station or completely renovate an old station where it would be possible, it would be something they should not forget.
The way out from the deep station costs 1/3 of all station construction price because there are extremely bad geological conditions in Moscow. It's about $100 millions. And it's about 1/2 of the shallow station construction price. (For the comparison: all this marble and granite cladding costs about 1-2 % of the construction). There are two deep stations opened this year without a special way outs for disabled people. This means that we can build one more metro station far from the center for the people suffer without it. You maybe don't know, but there are hundreds of thousands people living in the regions out of the metro coverage in Moscow. They spend one, two or even more hours to reach the nearest metro station every day. In addition, all the system if overloaded, some lines works with 100-150 % overload and there is only one way to solve this problem: to extend the density of the metro network.

So the choice is very simple. To build two extra way outs for disabled people or to build one more station to extend coverage and just to teach the personnel of the deep station to assist people in wheelchairs and help them to use the escalator. You chose to build some extra way outs. I choose the other way, shame on me.

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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:30 AM   #843
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Moscow, if the finnancial situation is indeed so bad, should maybe then give up on that heavy design of stations and build them more simpler so that it can add the lifts to the cost. Or a much better idea - it can just take the enormous 4 billion from Luzhkov (or his paravane wife) that he stole over the years and use them to equip the stations with disabled access.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:36 AM   #844
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Moscow, if the finnancial situation is indeed so bad, should maybe then give up on that heavy design of stations and build them more simpler so that it can add the lifts to the cost.
Again. This will save not more than 2 % of the construction costs.

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Or a much better idea - it can just take the enormous 4 billion from Luzhkov (or his paravane wife) that he stole over the years and use them to equip the stations with disabled access.
And equip just about 40 deep stations. Of 182 totally. Drop in the sea as we call it. Any other stupid ideas?

Oh, about Mr. Khrushchev. The endless repair of his 'simple designed' stations that were built in 1960-s now costs very much. It was cheaper to build normal stations than economize on the building, cladding and design and spend billions for endless repair and renovation. The materials were very cheap and they need to be repaired or replaced very frequently. The designs were terrible, the vestibules are very small and they can not hold today's passenger flow. And, by the way, it is impossible to make these stations accessible without total reconstruction.

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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:43 AM   #845
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And equip just about 40 deep stations. Of 182 totally. Drop in the sea as we call it. Any other stupid ideas?
It's not just about that 4 billion, imagine how much is being stolen on all levels. If you stop all that you could equip them all. Plus 40 is better than none. You have to start from somewhere. In 1931, someone could have said "nah we shouldn't build a metro in Moscow because we can't afford to cover the whole city with the money we have atm, we can only build measly 13 stations or mere 12 km which is nothing for Moscow as we need 300km of tracks, so why do it, it would be a drop in the sea, but we can expand the current avenues and boulevards instead and also invest into trams" but that would have been a very stupid idea.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 04:38 AM   #846
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Absence of money is an eternal russian problem. It's a little bit strange that any vertical lift at new deep stations (or at old as the second way out) has not been constructed till now. I think it is possible to construct at least 1 such elevator shaft as the second way out from some old deep station. And then to look, how will it function in practice. In theory, elevator shaft can even replace the four-tape escalator.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:43 AM   #847
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:47 AM   #848
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:49 AM   #849
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:55 AM   #850
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Old July 14th, 2010, 11:02 AM   #851
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Old July 14th, 2010, 11:15 AM   #852
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we speak of the new station
In most countries it is forbidden to build station without elevators.

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In most countries for any new station it is required to be disabled friendly.
It mean that we cannot build new metro station without several lifts.
What about idea to built elevators for all 300 Metro stations in Paris?
All the Paris metro station opened after the end of the 1980's have lifts.
Secondly RATP built (or will built) elevator in most of the RER station.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 11:31 AM   #853
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Absurd. There can be limited number of passangers in the elevator. It's take half of minute for elevator to reach platform and come back. There will be big lines of passangers who will before elevator cabine.
It's not absurd. There are calculations which give such assumptions. Made by russian planners for russian metros, by the way. Lifts have a two-level and multi-cabine structure and the big floorspace. When some elevators depart, others come. And I don't suggest to build them instead of escalators, but only as addition (the second way out from the station, for example) at one of the stations to look, how will it function in practice.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 12:52 PM   #854
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You can tell Moscow residents, who are live in nearby districts, that their stations would be closed for a years for installing elevators for the disabled persons, and you'll see their reaction.
Years? You don't need years for installing an elevator. Actually you don't need to close the station at all, such work is done in the background. Such things do not require any special work, it's just a vertical tube - http://www.flickr.com/photos/design8r/4227259578/

and there is no need for demolishing buildings on the ground as it takes minimum space, less than an average newsstand - image hosted on flickr


Most of the stations in Moscow have a vestibule or plenty of empty space (Moscow is known for wide sidewalks) on the ground anyway so the claim how it can't be done because something would have to be demolished isn't true.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:31 PM   #855
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Absence of money is an eternal russian problem. It's a little bit strange that any vertical lift at new deep stations (or at old as the second way out) has not been constructed till now.
It is strange that you said this. Come back to MyMetro and i'll tell you why it is almost impossible.

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2) The old trains are gradually being replaced by new, with air-conditioning system.
And these trains have the pneumatic suspension that matches floor level of the platform and the train independent of its loading.

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What about idea to built elevators for all 300 Metro stations in Paris?
And in London too. Not all stations are accessible both in London and Paris. 'Mind the gap' in London make impossible to use wheelchairs. And why no one blames London and Paris for this? These systems are old, true. But the Moscow metro is old too. And, by the way, the construction of the last two new stations started 20 years ago. These projects were made in 1980s.

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In most countries it is forbidden to build station without elevators.
There are no metro systems in most countries.
There are few metro systems that have deep stations.
Tere are few accessible deep stations.
All new shallow or overground stations in Russia must have the elevators.
There are no new deep stations in Russia projected and built after new accessibility law was accepted.

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All the Paris metro station opened after the end of the 1980's have lifts.
How many of them are 50-70 meters deep?

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Most of the stations in Moscow have a vestibule or plenty of empty space (Moscow is known for wide sidewalks) on the ground anyway so the claim how it can't be done because something would have to be demolished isn't true.
You just can't imagine that the elevator shaft from the center of the deep station will rich the ground 200 m far from the main entrance in the basement of the living building for example.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #856
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St.-Peterburg have deepest Metro system in the world. The depth of stations is 50-70 metres. It's need to demolish histroric part of city for installing of elevators.

For other Russian cities (except Kazan) the biggest problem is find money for building of some more stations, not installing of elevators.
You don't need to close the station, you can start digging the elevator tube from overground when the platform is under the street at some point, and only close it down when the planned brakethrough is happening, for example friday night, and make the hole in the platform (there needs to be some space under the elevator) and clean everything up until monday morning so that the metro can work regularly, and then install the elevator systems (engine etc) overground and outfit the tube, and whenever you have to do something on the platform itself, make it on the weekend. It's not that hard to manage.

Also, if the Russian Metro stations have some kind of entrance level hall from where the escalators run down to the platform, the elevators don't even need to go up to the street directly from the platform. You just install a short elevator from the street at the entrance to the entrance hall, and widen the entrance hall so that it goes over the platform (which can be dony even when traffic is running, as it doesn't obstruct the existing space), and then install an elevator from the entrance hall to the platform. Of course there are some ultra-deep stations where it would be very difficult, but I doubt that ALL of moscows stations are 50 meters deep.
"According to this, there are enough stations which could be retroffitted easily, without much effort or cost:
The Moscow metro comprises 182 stations, out of which 73 are deep-level, and 88 are shallow."

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And why no one blames London and Paris for this?
I think you're getting this wrong. No one, at least not I, am "blaming" Moscow for something. I just expect more from you, than I expect from London or Paris. A metro system that's too stingy to build proper tunnels so they could use proper dimensioned trains and people would not be like sardines in tins I don't expect much of, and especially not that they care about the needs of the people, all I expect them to care about is money. From Moscow on the other hand, I thought that they cared more about the people and mobility of the people than about a few rubels here and there. You should take that as a compliment, as it is indeed well-meant, and not in a bad way.

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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:54 PM   #857
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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:57 PM   #858
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You just can't imagine that the elevator shaft from the center of the deep station will rich the ground 200 m far from the main entrance in the basement of the living building for example.
It will happen on some stations but on most it wont, plus it doesn't have to be at the center of the deep station. So on all those stations where there is nothing above, it can be done, there are no obstacles. Just because it's harder on some stations is not an excuse not to do it where it's easier.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 02:58 PM   #859
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It look like that Singidunum has never rided Moscow Metro at working days. The most pictures of metro were made at late night, when there isn`t to much riders. The most of existing escalators, walking tunnels, stairs... are congested with thousands of people... and I think that disabled people would be in big problem...of course, disable people need to come to sometimes few km nearest station, and metro-metro transfer would be the biggest hell, because, there is no free room on platforms for anything then stairs to transfer tunnels, somewhere short escalators. Surface suburban train lines have better conditions for adding something for disabled, because there is in most cases enough free room.

Better and cheaper solution is make good surface transport for disabled people. When there is building metro every year, surface transport is terrible. The problem isn't lack of money (because there are a lot of new busses, trolleybusses and tramcars), but lack of good will to make dedicated lanes, signal synchronization, tramtrains 40-50m long etc. Secondary surface network is very important, and like it cannot replace metro on the busiest corridors, metro cannot replace surface wide network.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #860
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It look like that Singidunum has never rided Moscow Metro at working days.
I did and it's a mess but they don't have to work on those hours, they can work at night. As for the disabled, you are right I can't imagine them going through the metro rushour in Moscow as there are just way too many people pushing around.
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