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Old July 14th, 2010, 05:14 PM   #861
ruslan33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Lex View Post
Absence of money is an eternal russian problem. It's a little bit strange that any vertical lift at new deep stations (or at old as the second way out) has not been constructed till now. I think it is possible to construct at least 1 such elevator shaft as the second way out from some old deep station. And then to look, how will it function in practice. In theory, elevator shaft can even replace the four-tape escalator.
it's called Embezzlement by corrupt Moscow city goverment.

Sorry for offtopic.

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Old July 14th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
But it's already being implemented:
1) New turnstiles with opening doors are installed at all newest stations, the turnstiles at the old stations are gradually being replaced.
2) The old trains are gradually being replaced by new, with air-conditioning system.
3) The are installed light indicators for visually impaired persons at the new stations (light strips along the platforms), light indication at the beginning and end of staircases, at two newest stations lighting installed on the railing.
4) The are installed elevators at the all new shallow stations.
5) They are improving technology of paying with contactless payment cards (only a few Metro systems in the world use similar system).
6) They are installed columns of emergency call at the all Moscow Metro stations.

So, please don't need your blah..blah...blah
1,2,5 and 6 have nothing to do with being friendly for disabled or elderly people. What has air-co to do with being disabled friendly or new emergency buttons ?
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Old July 14th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
You don't need to close the station, you can start digging the elevator tube from overground when the platform is under the street at some point
And add to this: ticket machines and turnstiles which require a place for the personnel/guard (because people will try to pass without the ticket) which requires the cloakroom and toilets which require the cleaner and rooms for clearing things which requires the electrical panel room and many other service rooms. And don't forget about the ventilation system and a powerful heating system and the thermal curtains for winter.

All metro stations in Russia has the airtight gates. They isolate the station from overground in case of emergency. Not only in case of war, but during the flood or something like this too. So you cannot just build a hole from the platform to the ground level. You have to build one elevator from the planform to the basement level, build the gates in the basement level (and add all vestibule things I have told before) and build another elevator from the basement to the ground.

The only problem that you cannot build the basement level just above the platform because it will not fit on the height between the station ceiling and the ground level. And you can not build underground vestibule very close to the surface, you have to build the vestibule ceiling lower than the depth of the freezing which is 1,4 m in Moscow and 2,5 m in Novosibirsk for example.

So, the only way is to build the elevator from the platform and a passage to the underground vestibule built on the side of the station. This vestibule will be lower than the passage so we have to build the ramp too. But the stations are built under the streets usually and the way out will be only to the one side of the street. There are no pedestrian crossing on the surface there. So we have to build an underground passage to the other side of the station too and build another underground vestibule with all things in it.

Isn't it a bit more complicated and expensive than just a hole in the ground?

Quote:
Also, if the Russian Metro stations have some kind of entrance level hall from where the escalators run down to the platform, the elevators don't even need to go up to the street directly from the platform.
All new shallow stations has at least two elevators: from the surface to the entrance level hall and from entrance level hall to the platform. There is a space on the side of the stairs on the platform. And this space used as a passage to the elevator doors on the platform.

But the old shallow stations, especially built in 1960s just do not have any space on the sides of the stairs. There are just a wall and a very narrow passage to the service rooms very close to the rails. There is no space to install the elevator near the stairs like on new stations. Maybe it is possible to make the stairs more narrow and fit the elevator on its place. Or just build a compact hoist (hope I've found the correct term). But on some station the stairs are already too narrow, so they can not be even more narrow. This will break the building standards and will not hold the passenger flow.

And all i have told is just about the shallow stations. These are a quite simple solutions. As for the deep stations, all become much harder. I just say that deep stations have more airtight gates right on the platform. One gate for every way out or passage to another station.

Quote:
I thought that they cared more about the people and mobility of the people
So they care. They care about the mobility of all citizens and care about disabled people when it is possible.

Quote:
than about a few rubels here and there.
But the price is not 'a few rubels', sometimes the price is 'a few trillion rubels'. That's a problem. This is not right to spend trillions to make all metro stations accessible when there are few accessible buildings in Moscow, even residential ones and there are few accessible road crossing. And when we have to build more 400 km of new metro lines for hundreds of thousands citizens. We can not just drop everything and start making accessible metro. And few disabled people will use it: now many of them just can't get out of theirs homes themselves. On the other side, a person in a wheelchair can use an escalator: he or she just have to ask for assistance of the personnel. But unfortunately there are no assistance rules for the staff, because there are too few wheelchair persons use metro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
But Soviet engineers decided to choose the escalators and tri-vaulted type for deep-level stations as the main priority.
Because they expected very high passenger flow, much higher than in Paris or London that days.


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Originally Posted by Singidunum View Post
It will happen on some stations but on most it wont
On all deep stations.

Quote:
plus it doesn't have to be at the center of the deep station.
No it is not. But you have to remember about all the stairs and transfers to other stations. You can not install anything on the platform near the any stairs or transfers because it will be as obstacle to the passenger flow.

Last edited by KVentz; July 14th, 2010 at 06:44 PM.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 08:26 PM   #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVentz View Post
It is strange that you said this. Come back to MyMetro and i'll tell you why it is almost impossible.
Of course, I suspect why. But I also suppose, that it would be possible to construct at least 1 experimental elevator shaft in huge Moscow. Not even mainly for disabled persons and not as a single way out from station, but as the second or supplementary, with big passenger throughput (6-8 cabins).
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:47 PM   #865
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del.

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Old July 15th, 2010, 01:05 AM   #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Lex View Post
Absence of money is an eternal russian problem
No, it isn't absence of money, it is absence of good planning! Who don't know to work and make will say there is no money. Who knows say clear "there is no feasible plan". One wrong kind of thinking is that "we need this because it is good" It is way of thinking with which someone can make wrong decisions. Russia care very much about culture and education, and Russian society is in world top in culture and science (it is hard to say for any society the best). But, that doesn`t make high GDP, (like in Japan or Germany) only because economy way of thinking is undevelope. That make unreality aims (plans), which can't be achieved. Read on this forum about cities in USA, and their investitions in urban railways. In the most cases projects were finished on time, with expected efects, and with expected funds. When people in former socialistic countries ask "when they will start this project", USA citizens ask and make critics "how is spend tax payers money". On every USA site for public projects, datas about money, deadlines and expected efects are easy accessable, and that is resposibility to citizens. Russian citizens don't want this kind of responsibility from their decision-makers, and that is the reason why there isn't good financial menagement, and BDP is low. Low BDP mean lack of money for new investitions, and at last, only economy and finacial education in all population would make realy developed country for Russia. The most of Balkan countries (including Serbia) have same problem, but opposite to Russia, respect for culture and science is very low, and that is the reason why Russia (by my oppinion) have very good future
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Old July 15th, 2010, 01:44 AM   #867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
we speak of the new station
In most countries it is forbidden to build station without elevators.



All the Paris metro station opened after the end of the 1980's have lifts.
Secondly RATP built (or will built) elevator in most of the RER station.
they all ready told you that the new station which are not deep are built with elevators. And you can't just build an elevator to an 50 m deep station in the heart of Moscow, where there is just no place and time to do that.

In Europe we don't even have station which are so deep as in Russia!
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Old July 15th, 2010, 11:16 PM   #868
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del.

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Old July 15th, 2010, 11:19 PM   #869
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Old July 16th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #870
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^how long is this new entrance under construction already ? It is located near the headquarters of Lukoil ?
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Old July 16th, 2010, 12:48 AM   #871
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del.

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Old July 16th, 2010, 01:16 AM   #872
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^thx for the info
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Old July 23rd, 2010, 08:07 PM   #873
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Old July 29th, 2010, 01:36 AM   #874
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For those who claim it's impossible - all stations of Minsk metro will be equipped with lifts for disabled by 2015

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Originally Posted by Korkh. View Post
Подъемники или лифты для инвалидов-колясочников появятся на всех станциях минского метро

В Минске в 2011-2015 годах планируется оборудовать все станции метро вертикальными и наклонными подъемниками или лифтами для перемещения инвалидов-колясочников. Об этом корреспонденту БЕЛТА сообщила заместитель председателя комитета по труду, занятости и социальной защите Мингорисполкома Наталья Проскурова.

В настоящее время специальные подъемники имеются лишь на некоторых станциях второй линии метро, сложнее обстоят дела на первой линии. Между тем такие технические устройства зачастую являются единственным выходом в мир для инвалидов-колясочников. Поэтому городские власти в ближайшие пять лет намерены решить проблему передвижения таких людей в метро. На тех станциях, где технически невозможно установить лифт, будут применяться вертикальные или наклонные подъемники.

В настоящее время в соответствии с городскими мероприятиями по созданию в Минске безбарьерной среды для инвалидов и физически ослабленных людей на всех станциях столичной подземки завершено нанесение контрастных полос на лестничных маршах - яркими желтыми полосами обозначены первые и последние ступени при входе и внутри метрополитена, у эскалаторов.

Кроме того, совместно с ОАО "Минскметропроект" прорабатывается возможность установки на входах и выходах станций метрополитена радиоинформаторов направления движения для удобства ориентирования слепых пассажиров. Также планируется устроить ограничительные полосы края платформы, которые будут выполнены из контрастной, рельефной керамической плитки.

В Минске проживают более 109 тыс. инвалидов, в том числе более 4 тыс. детей-инвалидов в возрасте до 18 лет, 2134 инвалида-колясочника, из них активный образ жизни ведут 643 человека (30%), автотранспортом с ручным управлением владеют 568 человек.

Государственной программой о безбарьерной среде жизнедеятельности физически ослабленных лиц на 2007-2010 годы было определено, что к 2011 году 45% объектов социальной инфраструктуры столицы должно быть приспособлено к доступу физически ослабленных людей. Уже на 1 января 2010 года таких объектов в городе было 58%.
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Old July 29th, 2010, 04:47 AM   #875
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Respect for Minsk!

I'm just waiting for someone to "explain" how it is not possible in Moscow because of ... you know...and the thing...and.... blablabla
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Old July 29th, 2010, 05:57 AM   #876
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AFAIK, Minsk Metro is shallower than the Moscow Metro.
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Old July 29th, 2010, 09:13 AM   #877
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Actually there are no deep stations at all.


MareCar
All I can do is repeat it again
1. Tunneling is too expensive
2. Requires demolitions of old buildings in most of cases
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Old July 29th, 2010, 01:05 PM   #878
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Quote:
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Actually there are no deep stations at all.
Unlike Moscow where all stations are deep?

And I imagine that unlike Moscow where it's the major problem in Minsk there are no buildings above ground, on contrary it's only steppe and people living in yurts?
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Old July 29th, 2010, 03:53 PM   #879
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About the discussion on elevators or lack of them I see there are some misconceptions about elevators in general.

1 Elevators lack capacity vs escalators

This is simply wrong, elevators are built according to the capacity they need to meet, it does not matter if it is 10 or 100 or 1000 or 10000 people per given timespace.

2 Elevators are slow and will force people to wait

This is bullshit and on the contrary you will spend less time waiting in a station equipped with elevators vs a station equipped with escalators. In fact, you don't have to wait at all since the elevators are computer controlled (the computer keep track of number of people entering the ticket hall as well as incoming trains) meaning the elevators are allways where the demand is.

Elevators are also much faster than escalators so if the station is 80 or 100 meters below ground, instead of spending 3 minutes on the escalator, you will only spend 40-50 seconds in the elevator.


The reasons elevators are not used i Moscow are because they are expensive to construct and because they lack the space needed for the shaft.
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Old July 29th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #880
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Unlike Moscow where all stations are deep?

And I imagine that unlike Moscow where it's the major problem in Minsk there are no buildings above ground, on contrary it's only steppe and people living in yurts?
x2

And BTW, buildings don't have to be demolished just because of an elevator. The station is several hundred meters wide, and I doubt the platform really runs parallel to the street and perfectly under all the buildings next to the street, instead of underneath it. It most probably just crosses the street on the surface at some angle, lying both underneath the street and undearneath buildings. Not 100% only under buildings. And in that case its easy to build it were it matches the street and not where it would hit the buildings. Also, there is no rule that forbids that the elevator comes out on the surface inside of a building, like a university or some other big building. There is also the solution of widening the entrance hall which means it wouldn't matter what's above the station. But as Singidunum already said..Moscow is probably the only city with buildings in the world.
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