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Old October 23rd, 2007, 07:12 AM   #2041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Yeah, but compare this to the cost of Toronto's Spadina Line extension - full scale subway at $2 Billion for 8.7 km.
well nobody here is asking for a full scale heavy rail subway, the most critical thing about the Canada Line or about any rapid transit line's capacity are how the stations designed. The Canada Line should have been built with 80 metre platforms.....or 50-metres in 2009 and expandable to 80-metres in the future.

The funding model for the Canada Line, designed by RAVCo and the province, is quite flawed. This limit on construction funding, unlike the convention centre expansion, has caused the project to cut back on a lot. Even in Europe, they don't stick to original budgets - they stick to quality and the original blueprint. They don't chop things out when they don't have the money.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 07:48 AM   #2042
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Couldn't agree more. You build proper subways, not half-assed compromises. Even cities many times poorer than Vancouver come up with the money to build subways. If Vancouver wants to be taken more seriously, it needs to project to the world that it takes itself seriously. The Canada Line sends the message that Vancouver doesn't intend to be a player.

It's great that it is being built, but they've made a monstrous mistake building this puny line rather than investing in Vancouver's long term future. The whole world will be watching in 2010. This is certainly not the time to be counting pennies. This is an investment NOT an expense.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 07:52 AM   #2043
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Incredible updates coming steadily from out west. Thanks guys!!!
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 08:36 AM   #2044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Couldn't agree more. You build proper subways, not half-assed compromises. Even cities many times poorer than Vancouver come up with the money to build subways. If Vancouver wants to be taken more seriously, it needs to project to the world that it takes itself seriously. The Canada Line sends the message that Vancouver doesn't intend to be a player.

It's great that it is being built, but they've made a monstrous mistake building this puny line rather than investing in Vancouver's long term future. The whole world will be watching in 2010. This is certainly not the time to be counting pennies. This is an investment NOT an expense.
Precisely. In 2003, the publicly funded convention centre project budget was $495 million. Today, it's price due to rising labour and material costs is nearly $900 million. In fact, part of that price increase was $80 million for artwork and additional interior enhancements to the original interior design - to make it even better. Not one bit of the design was scaled back due to rising costs - in fact, they raised the quality of design.

So why didn't they do this too with the Canada Line?




VCCEP design in 2005 when construction started



There's a reason why VCCEP's design isn't this today:

^ imagine if the province had told their contractors to stay within the $495 million budget by cutting the design scope....this isn't that far off from what you would get.



The Porto Metro cost a lot more than originally budgeted, yet they didn't cut back on the design of the LRT line:

Why? They see this new Metro line as a valuable asset for many many many generations to come.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 11:21 PM   #2045
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more pics by Tafryn, Oct. 18:


Cambie Cut





















Broadway Station
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old October 24th, 2007, 02:17 AM   #2046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
well nobody here is asking for a full scale heavy rail subway, the most critical thing about the Canada Line or about any rapid transit line's capacity are how the stations designed. The Canada Line should have been built with 80 metre platforms.....or 50-metres in 2009 and expandable to 80-metres in the future.

The funding model for the Canada Line, designed by RAVCo and the province, is quite flawed. This limit on construction funding, unlike the convention centre expansion, has caused the project to cut back on a lot. Even in Europe, they don't stick to original budgets - they stick to quality and the original blueprint. They don't chop things out when they don't have the money.
Yes, I fully agree. It's quite sad actually. It's been two years into the project and I still can't get over it...
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Old October 24th, 2007, 05:10 AM   #2047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
well nobody here is asking for a full scale heavy rail subway, the most critical thing about the Canada Line or about any rapid transit line's capacity are how the stations designed. The Canada Line should have been built with 80 metre platforms.....or 50-metres in 2009 and expandable to 80-metres in the future.

The funding model for the Canada Line, designed by RAVCo and the province, is quite flawed. This limit on construction funding, unlike the convention centre expansion, has caused the project to cut back on a lot. Even in Europe, they don't stick to original budgets - they stick to quality and the original blueprint. They don't chop things out when they don't have the money.
The move to 80m platforms would probably have changed the cost substantially due to increased gradients between stations and the need for deeper stations to reduce the gradients.

The funding model isn't flawed - if the traditional funding model had been adhered to rather than a P3 - you'd have the Evergreen Line scenario - i.e. NOTHING BUILT.
For the Canada Line, InTransitBC has found additional funding (through private capital markets) to cover increases in construction and materials costs. If that money had to come from public coffers (like in the traditional model), the project would have been stonewalled.
Politicians won't endlessly throw money at megaprojects. The cost overruns for the Convention Centre Expansion is the Liberals' fast ferry fiasco - not something to be proud of.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 05:45 AM   #2048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
The move to 80m platforms would probably have changed the cost substantially due to increased gradients between stations and the need for deeper stations to reduce the gradients.

The funding model isn't flawed - if the traditional funding model had been adhered to rather than a P3 - you'd have the Evergreen Line scenario - i.e. NOTHING BUILT.
For the Canada Line, InTransitBC has found additional funding (through private capital markets) to cover increases in construction and materials costs. If that money had to come from public coffers (like in the traditional model), the project would have been stonewalled.
Politicians won't endlessly throw money at megaprojects. The cost overruns for the Convention Centre Expansion is the Liberals' fast ferry fiasco - not something to be proud of.
So, are you satisfied with what is being built? You don't foresee major capacity problems in the future? This project could also be a fast ferry fiasco, people just won't realize until they see how overcrowded their 2 billion people mover will be in 5, 10, 15 years.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:01 AM   #2049
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I went over to Richmond on Sunday and saw that the elevated guideway has just about reached the future location of Lansdowne Station. With the elevated guideway nearing completion (minus the tracks) and cut-and-cover tunnels well ahead of schedule, who thinks the line will open early?
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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:01 AM   #2050
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I think its a reasonable deal for the price.
The proposals by Bombardier were apparently much more expensive - and provided for a permanent open trench on Cambie from 49th Ave. to 63rd Ave.

If more north-south capacity is required, the Arbutus corridor can be used rather than funnelling everyone into a single line.

There was a lot of political opposition to this line in the first place - we're lucky it's getting built at all and within the levels of government funding provided (which in itself was more than other cities have been able to raise/extract).

The Proposal Extracts provide for the following measures to meet the capacity requirements during the operating period.
BTW - this description does suggest that the ends of the train will sit beyond the 50m platform with all doors opening onto the platform.

http://www.canadaline.ca/files/uploads/docs/doc455.pdf

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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:37 AM   #2051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
I think its a reasonable deal for the price.
The proposals by Bombardier were apparently much more expensive - and provided for a permanent open trench on Cambie from 49th Ave. to 63rd Ave.

If more north-south capacity is required, the Arbutus corridor can be used rather than funnelling everyone into a single line.

There was a lot of political opposition to this line in the first place - we're lucky it's getting built at all and within the levels of government funding provided (which in itself was more than other cities have been able to raise/extract).

The Proposal Extracts provide for the following measures to meet the capacity requirements during the operating period.
BTW - this description does suggest that the ends of the train will sit beyond the 50m platform with all doors opening onto the platform.

http://www.canadaline.ca/files/uploads/docs/doc455.pdf
If we are so lucky to get the Canada Line, what are the chance of getting another line down Arbutus? That's another 1-2+ billion dollars, depending on technology used.

Is there currently any real consideration, proposals, plans etc. by any level of government for the Arbutus corridor?
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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:54 AM   #2052
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There was consideration for the Arbutus corridor when they first proposed a line to Richmond. No reason to consider the route now with the Cambie line being built. Perhaps 15 years from now, like some of you suggest? Not sure how people can nail down the time...
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Old October 24th, 2007, 10:07 AM   #2053
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Personally I think they should have screwed the "fair bidding process" and allowed Bombardier to combine efficiencies to see if their proprosal could have been cheaper. I hardly think that the city needs to be "fair" to a bunch of multimillion dollar transportation manufacturers. Not to mention that Bombardier is Canadian.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 10:50 AM   #2054
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Quote:
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Personally I think they should have screwed the "fair bidding process" and allowed Bombardier to combine efficiencies to see if their proprosal could have been cheaper. I hardly think that the city needs to be "fair" to a bunch of multimillion dollar transportation manufacturers. Not to mention that Bombardier is Canadian.
Well, SNC-Lavalin is Canadian too - Quebec based like Bombardier....it's just that the trains aren't.

SNC-Lavalin did a lot of engineering work for the Expo and Millennium Line, so they have had quite a bit of history with us before. I believe they are also responsible for the Sea-to-Sky highway upgrade.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old October 24th, 2007, 10:57 AM   #2055
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The trains aren't Bombardier? Perhaps Korean then? Is it Daewoo or Samsung. I can't remember which has a train division.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 11:09 AM   #2056
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The trains aren't Bombardier? Perhaps Korean then? Is it Daewoo or Samsung. I can't remember which has a train division.
It's Rotem, a division of Hyundai. Information on the train is on the first page of this topic.

We ordered 40 cars (or 20 articulated trains). They cost $1.5 million for each car...$60 million for the entire order. Six doors on each side of the train, and the trains are 41-metres long and 3-metres wide....carrying 167 passengers per car or 334 for an entire train.

They are being manufactured in Korea, and shippings of four trains will begin in December.


Video of the Canada Line train being tested in the factory in South Korea:










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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old October 24th, 2007, 11:10 AM   #2057
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Even more pics by Tafryn, Oct. 19:


BRIDGEPORT STATION


































MIDDLE ARM BRIDGE













TEMPLETON STATION







YVR-AIRPORT STATION
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old October 25th, 2007, 04:44 AM   #2058
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Thanks for the photos of the trains. Was it your first choice of those that bid? They look good from the front, but they seem so grim from the side. Tiny windows. Will Vancouver's be identical to these?
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Old October 25th, 2007, 06:02 AM   #2059
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Thanks for the photos of the trains. Was it your first choice of those that bid? They look good from the front, but they seem so grim from the side. Tiny windows. Will Vancouver's be identical to these?
Those trains in the picture ARE the Vancouver Canada Line trains.

I agree with you, they do look a bit grim from the outside....especially on the side. And they are not planning on painting the entire train, just the fronts where the white is.

IMO, i really think they should paint the entire train white...it would look really sleak. Right now, it already looks old and cheap.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old October 25th, 2007, 06:12 AM   #2060
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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