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Old January 16th, 2008, 02:40 AM   #2381
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A New SkyTrain rendering with the "C" car train by alta-bc from SCP

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Old January 16th, 2008, 02:59 AM   #2382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I thought it was announced at least a year ago that Evergreen Line will definitely be light rail.
With the provincial government helping with funds, Translink might have enough money to build a Skytrain system instead, which I think is better because it will probably require less road reconstruction for the proposed surface routes and actually utilize the third track at the Lougheed Town Centre station.

Also, I believe there is a BNSF track running through White Rock, Delta, and Surrey to somewhere north. Will there be a possibility that a West Coast Express commuter train route be established there (instead of a BRT route), and does the new plan provide money for a North Burnaby station along the exisiting West Coast Express route?

Man, I am truly impressed with Vancouver. What's your secret?!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 03:09 AM   #2383
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Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
With the provincial government helping with funds, Translink might have enough money to build a Skytrain system instead, which I think is better because it will probably require less road reconstruction for the proposed surface routes and actually utilize the third track at the Lougheed Town Centre station.

Also, I believe there is a BNSF track running through White Rock, Delta, and Surrey to somewhere north. Will there be a possibility that a West Coast Express commuter train route be established there (instead of a BRT route), and does the new plan provide money for a North Burnaby station along the exisiting West Coast Express route?

Man, I am truly impressed with Vancouver. What's your secret?!
A strong urban growth boundary, I believe.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 03:16 AM   #2384
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I think it's worth it. It'll be much more convienent to take rail transit instead of the bus.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 03:33 AM   #2385
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Well I just hope that they take some lessons from the successful BRT biggies before launching on something half-ass for "RapidBus".
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Old January 16th, 2008, 04:06 AM   #2386
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Well I just hope that they take some lessons from the successful BRT biggies before launching on something half-ass for "RapidBus".
What successful BRT biggies?
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Old January 16th, 2008, 04:55 AM   #2387
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Great news!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 05:17 AM   #2388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I thought it was announced at least a year ago that Evergreen Line will definitely be light rail.
The price last year was $1 billion, but with the new figure out for the line at $1.4 billion it's very likely it will be SkyTrain instead.


Quote:
What successful BRT biggies?
i think Bogota's rapid bus network is a pretty good example to follow. They said our rapid bus network would also have bus platforms, something like this:
image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr
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Old January 16th, 2008, 05:51 AM   #2389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
A New SkyTrain rendering with the "C" car train by alta-bc from SCP

*druels*
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Old January 16th, 2008, 06:29 AM   #2390
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That would be great. It would go to near subway capacity.
That said that still isn't double capacity as the stations right now can handle 2 MK11 cars and that picture shows 3 MK11 cars. Still it would be fantastic. I hope it takes place sooner rather than later. Even getting the 2 MK11 cars in a hurry would still be fantastic over the current one MK11 cars they are currently using.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 06:37 AM   #2391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
That would be great. It would go to near subway capacity.
That said that still isn't double capacity as the stations right now can handle 2 MK11 cars and that picture shows 3 MK11 cars. Still it would be fantastic. I hope it takes place sooner rather than later. Even getting the 2 MK11 cars in a hurry would still be fantastic over the current one MK11 cars they are currently using.

I think you have a misconception of what exactly a Mark II car is.

Below, you have a 2-car Mark II train:


The articulated bend links two Mark II cars together. They don't act as a car together.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 07:48 AM   #2392
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Closer to home Ottawa's Transitway is an excellent example of true BRT with bus-only roadways not just HOV. L.A.'s Orange Line is also a good example.
I sure as hell hope Evergreen is SkyTrain. It better be for the amount being spent. If it's not then they are paying WAY to much for standard LRT which almost always come in under $100 mil/KM. It would also be easier to have a standard technology. Why they built the RAV as a small Metro as opposed to a compatible SkyTrain is beyond me.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 08:10 AM   #2393
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I think that if the 12 kilometer UBC extension is $2.8 billion, I'm not sure how an 11 kilometer extension would be $1.4 billion (unless land is a huge issue!).

Remember, only 12% of Bogota's commuters use a car. That's much more due to economic reasons (they have a third of the car ownership, by percentage, that Greater Vancouver does), and makes *any* transit successful.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 09:04 AM   #2394
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I wonder why Kamloops wasn't involved in any of this, like Kelowna was. Kamloops honestly has the worst transit system I think, and in 12 years, Kamloops population will be well over 100,000 (probably around 130,000) So that kinda sucks
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Old January 16th, 2008, 09:23 AM   #2395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I think that if the 12 kilometer UBC extension is $2.8 billion, I'm not sure how an 11 kilometer extension would be $1.4 billion (unless land is a huge issue!).
The $2.8 billion, 12-km UBC extension will be a bored tunnel all the way. The $1.4 billion, 11-km Evergreen Line will be elevated for most of the route except for a 3-km bored tunnel. Boring is significantly more expensive than elevated.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 16th, 2008, 09:28 AM   #2396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoolmak View Post
I wonder why Kamloops wasn't involved in any of this, like Kelowna was. Kamloops honestly has the worst transit system I think, and in 12 years, Kamloops population will be well over 100,000 (probably around 130,000) So that kinda sucks
The provincial bus fleet will see a huge increase, and Kamloops will probably get a share of that. A rapid bus system in Kamloops probably isn't feasible just yet.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:02 AM   #2397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoolmak View Post
I wonder why Kamloops wasn't involved in any of this, like Kelowna was. Kamloops honestly has the worst transit system I think, and in 12 years, Kamloops population will be well over 100,000 (probably around 130,000) So that kinda sucks

Kamloops is super sprawl man. It used to take me more than a hour to get from Aberdeen to my grandma's house in Westsyde when I rode the bus in highschool. There are not enough people to support a transit system that will solve the problem.

Even I conceed at this point in time the car is the way to go in Kamloops, hands down. That's all I use when I'm there to visit friends and family, despite the fact that I use transit only in Vancouver. Even with increasing traffic Kamloops is still easy to get around.

Climate change is the central issue at hand to me. So what if 90%+ people use cars in Kamloops, 100,000 ish people out of 4.4 million is a drop in the bucket. More fuel efficient cars are the best bet for people in a town like Kamloops in the near future.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:05 AM   #2398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Closer to home Ottawa's Transitway is an excellent example of true BRT with bus-only roadways not just HOV. L.A.'s Orange Line is also a good example.
I sure as hell hope Evergreen is SkyTrain. It better be for the amount being spent. If it's not then they are paying WAY to much for standard LRT which almost always come in under $100 mil/KM. It would also be easier to have a standard technology. Why they built the RAV as a small Metro as opposed to a compatible SkyTrain is beyond me.
The Brisbane busway in Australia is also a good example of having raised platforms for the buses. It's a darned good service too as multiple routes "hop-on, hop-off" the busway at various points.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #2399
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Less than meets the eye, and light on details

Vaughn Palmer, Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, January 15, 2008

The B.C. Liberals promised their new transit plan would come with an unprecedented price tag and so it did: $14 billion.

But the accompanying release -- less a plan than a 20-page brochure padded with pictures and fact boxes -- didn't put the Liberals on the line for anything like that amount of new money.

The "new" plan includes the Canada Line, already fully financed and nearing completion, plus other, previously committed improvements in transit services.

It further anticipates billions of dollars in new funding from "partners," including the federal government, local government, and the regional transportation authority (TransLink.)

Strip away old news. Strip away the presumed matching funding.

The province says it will spend "up to $4.75 billion . . . by 2020," which works out to about $400 million a year in new money.

The B.C. Liberals are spending about $1 billion on transportation infrastructure in the current budget year.

No wonder Premier Gordon Campbell is saying the province won't need the much-rumored carbon tax to cover its share.

But having said that, the Liberals have shifted priorities. Campbell's last transportation plan, announced two years ago, was the all-roads-and-bridges expansion known as the Gateway project.

The new plan puts transit at the forefront.

It calls for extension of the existing network of rapid transit lines eastward to Coquitlam, westward to the University of B.C., and southeasterly along the Fraser Highway toward Langley.

The Liberals further propose to double capacity on the existing Expo transit line by building larger stations and operating longer trains.

They would help fund the purchase of some 1,500 new buses and bankroll a rapid bus service for the Lower Mainland, the Okanagan and the provincial capital.

The biggest outlay would be for the extended transit lines and estimates for all three projects point to a continued escalation in construction costs.

Taking them in the order in which they would probably be built, the Coquitlam service ("the Evergreen line") is priced at $1.4 billion, about double the estimate when the Liberals took office.

The Surrey extension, perhaps next on the construction schedule, is pegged at $1.1 billion.

The service to UBC, which wouldn't be ready until 2020 at the earliest, is estimated at $2.8 billion in current dollars.

On a comparative basis, the costing for the Evergreen line works out to $127 million a kilometre, Surrey is $183 million and the UBC service $233 million.

The $2-billion Canada Line, linking Vancouver to Richmond and the airport, is being built for about $105 million a kilometre.

Labour and materials account for some of the escalation.

But the extra budget for getting to Coquitlam is also a sign that the Liberals are preparing to abandon the current plan for a surface light rail system in favour of a more expensive SkyTrain service.

The hefty price tag for getting to UBC is partly a product of the running controversy over the construction of the Canada Line along Cambie Street.

The Liberals don't want to subject west-side businesses the experience of cut-and-cover construction, which ruined many a Cambie merchant.

So they've budgeted for extensive tunneling along much of the proposed 12-kilometre route along (or rather under) Broadway toward UBC.

Given the time frame of a dozen years, it would be a mistake to treat any of this as the last word on the plan or even on B.C. Liberal priorities.

It offers a vision of greatly expanded transit services, without a lot of detail on specific projects, timetables or how taxpayers will pay for all of it.

Campbell and Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon insist the province can cover its share from existing sources of revenue.

But that doesn't mean that local governments won't be hitting up their ratepayers for additional contributions via the property tax. Or that TransLink won't be using every bit of its new, provincially mandated room to move on the gas tax.

The Liberals say these projects will tap into other potential sources of revenue, including partnerships with private developers and sale of increased density along transit lines and around stations.

One last point of qualification that ought to be noted is the impact of this megaplan on the government's effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Campbell floated a big number on that score as well: "The plan will reduce emissions by 4.7 million tonnes cumulatively by 2020."

But note the use of the word "cumulatively." The Liberals simply added together the much smaller reductions for each of a dozen years to make the end product look bigger.

As with the big dollar figure, the more you look at the plan's imputed impact on greenhouse gas emissions, the less impressive it is.

[email protected]
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:25 AM   #2400
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Less than meets the eye, and light on details

Vaughn Palmer, Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, January 15, 2008

The B.C. Liberals promised their new transit plan would come with an unprecedented price tag and so it did: $14 billion.

But the accompanying release -- less a plan than a 20-page brochure padded with pictures and fact boxes -- didn't put the Liberals on the line for anything like that amount of new money.

The "new" plan includes the Canada Line, already fully financed and nearing completion, plus other, previously committed improvements in transit services.

It further anticipates billions of dollars in new funding from "partners," including the federal government, local government, and the regional transportation authority (TransLink.)

Strip away old news. Strip away the presumed matching funding.

The province says it will spend "up to $4.75 billion . . . by 2020," which works out to about $400 million a year in new money.

The B.C. Liberals are spending about $1 billion on transportation infrastructure in the current budget year.

No wonder Premier Gordon Campbell is saying the province won't need the much-rumored carbon tax to cover its share.

But having said that, the Liberals have shifted priorities. Campbell's last transportation plan, announced two years ago, was the all-roads-and-bridges expansion known as the Gateway project.

The new plan puts transit at the forefront.

It calls for extension of the existing network of rapid transit lines eastward to Coquitlam, westward to the University of B.C., and southeasterly along the Fraser Highway toward Langley.

The Liberals further propose to double capacity on the existing Expo transit line by building larger stations and operating longer trains.

They would help fund the purchase of some 1,500 new buses and bankroll a rapid bus service for the Lower Mainland, the Okanagan and the provincial capital.

The biggest outlay would be for the extended transit lines and estimates for all three projects point to a continued escalation in construction costs.

Taking them in the order in which they would probably be built, the Coquitlam service ("the Evergreen line") is priced at $1.4 billion, about double the estimate when the Liberals took office.

The Surrey extension, perhaps next on the construction schedule, is pegged at $1.1 billion.

The service to UBC, which wouldn't be ready until 2020 at the earliest, is estimated at $2.8 billion in current dollars.

On a comparative basis, the costing for the Evergreen line works out to $127 million a kilometre, Surrey is $183 million and the UBC service $233 million.

The $2-billion Canada Line, linking Vancouver to Richmond and the airport, is being built for about $105 million a kilometre.

Labour and materials account for some of the escalation.

But the extra budget for getting to Coquitlam is also a sign that the Liberals are preparing to abandon the current plan for a surface light rail system in favour of a more expensive SkyTrain service.

The hefty price tag for getting to UBC is partly a product of the running controversy over the construction of the Canada Line along Cambie Street.

The Liberals don't want to subject west-side businesses the experience of cut-and-cover construction, which ruined many a Cambie merchant.

So they've budgeted for extensive tunneling along much of the proposed 12-kilometre route along (or rather under) Broadway toward UBC.

Given the time frame of a dozen years, it would be a mistake to treat any of this as the last word on the plan or even on B.C. Liberal priorities.

It offers a vision of greatly expanded transit services, without a lot of detail on specific projects, timetables or how taxpayers will pay for all of it.

Campbell and Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon insist the province can cover its share from existing sources of revenue.

But that doesn't mean that local governments won't be hitting up their ratepayers for additional contributions via the property tax. Or that TransLink won't be using every bit of its new, provincially mandated room to move on the gas tax.

The Liberals say these projects will tap into other potential sources of revenue, including partnerships with private developers and sale of increased density along transit lines and around stations.

One last point of qualification that ought to be noted is the impact of this megaplan on the government's effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Campbell floated a big number on that score as well: "The plan will reduce emissions by 4.7 million tonnes cumulatively by 2020."

But note the use of the word "cumulatively." The Liberals simply added together the much smaller reductions for each of a dozen years to make the end product look bigger.

As with the big dollar figure, the more you look at the plan's imputed impact on greenhouse gas emissions, the less impressive it is.

[email protected]
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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