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Old January 17th, 2008, 03:17 AM   #2421
adrimm
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Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
What successful BRT biggies?
That's just it there are none in North America-

But in a globalizing world we would be remiss to consider places further abroad where it has worked very well. In this case; perhaps surprisingly to some, Bogota Colombia's TransMilenio and Jakarta's TransJakarta (built after the Bogota model).

I can tell you I was *not*impressed with the idea of BRT when it was presented to me a few years back, but coincidentally I was travelling (backpacking) in South America in 2006 and stopped in Bogota for awhile - and was totally blown away by what I saw.. it's slick - they really went for it. It cannot be compared to B-Line at all.

Reason why is that Both TransMilenio and TransJakarta are much closer to a subway or metro than anything else, and they put alot of thought and investment into them, especially the stations.

Bogota basically took Curitiba's idea and built it up to mass transit capacities not just in extent but in quality. There are fixed permanent stations, sliding station doors, smart cards, turnstiles.... A report/guide on the Institute for Trasnportation Development Policy gives capacity figures of 45,000 ppdph, and a UN report a few years back gives capacity figures of 37,000 ppdph.

They copied TransMilenio almost exactly in Jakarta, and it's no coincidence that it works well there too. Unfortunately neither city is exactly the tourism mecca that gets lots of exposure.. and I think that some in North America are perhaps to penny-pinching or arrogant to outright install such quality BRT.

Try searching Trans-Jakarta (here on Skyscrapers): http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=423272&page=5

PS Capetown in South Africa is also putting in 100 kms of BRT in time for the 2010 World Cup and they've sent *2* delegations to South America already!
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Old January 17th, 2008, 03:27 AM   #2422
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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Closer to home Ottawa's Transitway is an excellent example of true BRT with bus-only roadways not just HOV. L.A.'s Orange Line is also a good example.
I sure as hell hope Evergreen is SkyTrain. It better be for the amount being spent. If it's not then they are paying WAY to much for standard LRT which almost always come in under $100 mil/KM. It would also be easier to have a standard technology. Why they built the RAV as a small Metro as opposed to a compatible SkyTrain is beyond me.
Mr. X is bang on. The Bogota system is among, if not, the highest functioning (and in my opinion the immediate next best thing to subway) - I hate how skytrain pillars slice Vancouver.

Why go for mediocrity just becuase it is local when the Bogota example is there already there and is showing LRT-level capacity? It's not like a research trip to Bogota would actually cost much more than a trip to LA or a trip to Ottawa (speaking as someone who has been there).

Check out this vid of one of the Bogota Stations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA4IR7PvO6I
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Old January 17th, 2008, 03:29 AM   #2423
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Originally Posted by adrimm View Post
Mr. X is bang on. The Bogota system is among, if not, the highest functioning (and in my opinion the immediate next best thing to subway) - I hate how skytrain pillars slice Vancouver.

Why go for mediocrity just becuase it is local when the Bogota example is there already there and is showing LRT-level capacity? It's not like a research trip to Bogota would actually cost much more than a trip to LA or a trip to Ottawa (speaking as someone who has been there).

Check out this vid of one of the Bogota Stations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA4IR7PvO6I
Bogota is in a place where only 12% of commuters use a car... and that wouldn't be much different without the BRT.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 03:45 AM   #2424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrimm View Post
Mr. X is bang on. The Bogota system is among, if not, the highest functioning (and in my opinion the immediate next best thing to subway) - I hate how skytrain pillars slice Vancouver.

Why go for mediocrity just becuase it is local when the Bogota example is there already there and is showing LRT-level capacity? It's not like a research trip to Bogota would actually cost much more than a trip to LA or a trip to Ottawa (speaking as someone who has been there).

Check out this vid of one of the Bogota Stations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA4IR7PvO6I
Well, something like Transmilenio would be a hard sell to replace SkyTrain. Commuters expect more, want more. Trains are just more attractive.

In Bogota, with such a dense population and severe congestion they have no choice but accept rapid bus as their mode of transport. Anything could work in such a dense area like Bogota, including heavy rail.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 03:59 AM   #2425
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^ buy some time? the Expo Line improvements that have been proposed are needed TODAY, nevermind 2020. why not do it right now?

With the construction of the Evergreen Line and UBC extension as well as the completion of the Canada Line, it will add a lot of ridership to the Expo Line - ridership levels that it cannot sustain without the improvements planned.

And we are buying time right now...Translink has 48 Mark II cars ordered, and will be arriving in 2009.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 08:37 AM   #2426
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Kamloops is super sprawl man. It used to take me more than a hour to get from Aberdeen to my grandma's house in Westsyde when I rode the bus in highschool. There are not enough people to support a transit system that will solve the problem.

Even I conceed at this point in time the car is the way to go in Kamloops, hands down. That's all I use when I'm there to visit friends and family, despite the fact that I use transit only in Vancouver. Even with increasing traffic Kamloops is still easy to get around.

Climate change is the central issue at hand to me. So what if 90%+ people use cars in Kamloops, 100,000 ish people out of 4.4 million is a drop in the bucket. More fuel efficient cars are the best bet for people in a town like Kamloops in the near future.
Kelowna is worse for sprawl, and they only have 20,000 more ppl. So, that doesn't really answer my question, but yeah you're right, and traffic in Kamloops is getting pretty out of control.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 02:16 PM   #2427
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When you don't count the suburbs the numbers sure come up close. Let's put Westside in a category with Cherry Creek and Savona and compare the two cities and their metro areas:


Kamloops

Metro Population: ~92,000 (2006)
City Population: ~80,000 (2006)

Kamloops Area (city proper): 5,686.19 kmē


Kelowna

Metro Pop: ~165,000 (2007)
City Pop: ~123,000 (2007)

Kelowna Area (city proper): 548.3 kmē


General conclusions from this comparison:

1. Kamloops can be considered significantly smaller than Kelowna in terms of population (both city and metro area).

2. Kelowna is much denser: it has ~35% more people in its city proper than in Kamloops' city proper, with a proper city area ~10% of the size of Kamloops'.


Problems/Concerns with these conclusions:

1. Kamloops is the product of previously unincorporated municipalities in the 60's. Overall it relatively lacks suburbs, with 87% of the population living within the city proper; in Kelowna only 75% live within the city proper.

One could argue since incorporation of Westside into Kelowna (population ~28,000) would create a less dense city, so would the differences seen between Kamloops and Kelowna decrease to some extent.

I can't predict the difference at the moment not knowing the area of Westside, nor could I say if the difference is statistically significant, not having taken stats class in 5 years hehe.

2. Kamloops has a lot of surrounding mountainous terrain which is not terribly great for development, and TONS of the city's developable land is undeveloped and/or cannot be used for agricultural purposes (unlike Kelowna).

The area of Kamloops' city proper is deceptive as the current growth boundary of most of the neighbourhoods is nowhere near the city’s municipal limits. Comparison of the density/area of only the land in use in Kamloops and Kelowna would give a different result (lower difference) in areas/densities of the two cities.

3. Kamloops’ population estimates are from 2006, while Kelowna’s are from 2007. This should decrease the gap between the two populations.


My Final Conclusion:

The densities of Kamloops and Kelowna are, in practical terms, closer than on paper; however, it's still pretty clear there is a large difference between Kamloops and Kelowna, given that Kamloops is ~10 times larger by area, yet has 2/3s of Kelowna’s population.

Lately it may seem like I have been bad mouthing Kamloops, but I want people to know that I absolutely love the city, and spend the majority of my holiday time there.

I've lived in either Metro Vancouver or Kamloops for all but 1 year of my life, in an almost 50/50 split, and find it impossible not to see similarities between Van and Kelowna. As a teen Kelowna was always the rival town to me. I would love to see Kamloops catch up to Kelowna, but they have both followed different developmental pathways.

Like Vancouver, Kelowna has been free of the freeway. The Okanagan Lake Bridge is the Port Mann of the interior. High density development has arisen along the lake, and highway 97's shopping is tough to avoid as you pass through town.

In Kamloops the freeway bypass on the west side of town has been there since the 70's. Kamloops developed with the freeway, and the product of that can be seen. Kamloops has four malls, and no one would see three of them driving straight through, and barely notice Aberdeen on the way. The freeway bypass is a gas strip with hotels. The image of modern urban living is a little harder to sell.



What I think we should do:

A. Stop comparing the two cities so much. They are different enough as is. Yes it is fun sometimes, but there is a limit to all this Kelowna got this, why didn't Kamloops blah blah stuff. If people in Kamloops really want the same things then we should all be speaking to our local and provincial politicians rather than just posting stuff on here haha.

B. Be active (myself included) in pressuring the right people to promote infill/redevelopment in Kamloops.

C. Educate citizens of Kamloops about the benefits of a denser urban core and green living, all the while retaining a sense of patience and realistic goals and expectations. Time is going to be needed, especially in Kamloops.


P.S. My bad for posting off topic.

Last edited by Daguy; January 17th, 2008 at 02:22 PM.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 02:49 PM   #2428
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I think it would be pretty stupid and a waste of money if they bored past Main st. They should just do cut and cover like they always planed. There are no commercial store fronts on 10th and its just a residential type street with hardly any traffic. Its pathetic that I have already read about store owners bitching that they don't want cut and cover on Broadway when that was never the plan and not to mention is virtually impossible because of the extensive sewer, utility, pipe network below it. Not to mention that unlike Cambie its a much more important and used route for traffic and transit that needs to keep running during construction. Thats my two cents.

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Old January 17th, 2008, 07:21 PM   #2429
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Acutally an 85M train could fit on the current stations (slight overhang doors still meet the platform), if you had an A/B car on each end and the middle cars were all C cars (probably 3 maybe 4) I imagine capacity would be close to 3 sets of the current A-B cars. Can someone look up the capacity and length of the C cars and see how many would be possible to shove onto our 80M stations. There is a lot of room lost between the ABAB cars. Of course with expanding the stations, the above would still be possible with even bigger trains. I would just like to see C trains as they appear to be a better use then the pairings.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 08:45 PM   #2430
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The TBM has started boring again at Vancouver City Centre Station. They have built a steel frame (square, black) off of which the TBM "pushes" in order to get the pressure to grind against the leading edge. You will recall that when the TBM went through the last time, they laid a tunnel tube the whole length of the station. That probably wasn't possible this time given the station superstructure around it. You can see the framework being built in this Tafryn pic (the concrete collars have now been inserted from the steel frame to the station wall).

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Old January 17th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #2431
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Old January 17th, 2008, 09:33 PM   #2432
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East Side of Cambie Street Between 64th Avenue and 50th Avenue Scheduled to Re-open to Traffic

http://www.canadaline.ca/uploads/New...es/News557.pdf
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Old January 17th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #2433
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The TBM has started boring again at Vancouver City Centre Station. They have built a steel frame (square, black) off of which the TBM "pushes" in order to get the pressure to grind against the leading edge. You will recall that when the TBM went through the last time, they laid a tunnel tube the whole length of the station. That probably wasn't possible this time given the station superstructure around it. You can see the framework being built in this Tafryn pic (the concrete collars have now been inserted from the steel frame to the station wall).
Yeah, for Beacon Hill in Seattle they dragged the machine through the station excavation and relaunched rather than spending money on tunnel liner segments.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 04:46 AM   #2434
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I think it would be pretty stupid and a waste of money if they bored past Main st. They should just do cut and cover like they always planed. There are no commercial store fronts on 10th and its just a residential type street with hardly any traffic. Its pathetic that I have already read about store owners bitching that they don't want cut and cover on Broadway when that was never the plan and not to mention is virtually impossible because of the extensive sewer, utility, pipe network below it. Not to mention that unlike Cambie its a much more important and used route for traffic and transit that needs to keep running during construction. Thats my two cents.
I disagree. You have the residents complaining then - and a big reason to comoplain. It's literally right in front of there doorstep. The public won't let the cut-and-cover scheme ever again - I'm pretty sure about that.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 05:23 AM   #2435
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^ yea, it's not just the merchants that are complaining it's also the residents. just yesterday, the media ran a story how first it was the trench and now, they've installed temporary tunnel fans that sound like 10 lawnmowers going on at once. Even mentioning cut and cover would be political suicide (not so much for the province, but for the city),
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Old January 18th, 2008, 05:28 AM   #2436
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Well, something like Transmilenio would be a hard sell to replace SkyTrain. Commuters expect more, want more. Trains are just more attractive.

In Bogota, with such a dense population and severe congestion they have no choice but accept rapid bus as their mode of transport. Anything could work in such a dense area like Bogota, including heavy rail.
First, I'm not at all saying that you would want to replace skytrain - I've been talking about that RapidBus segment of the Transit funding -> the Bogota model has alot of full features that make it very attractive (I can personally attest that to the rider, it *feels* much closer to skytrain than B-Line), and to boot it has potentially enormous capacity, even at 2/3 of what is used in Bogota.

Yes Bogota is dense and has much lower car ownership (too expensive for many), but that difference is partly the point.. the density and the high cost of driving that Bogota faces are also in our future in many places. Alot of BC communities are geographically restricted, they will spread some, but there will be much densification in the coming decades. Also in the coming decades driving cars will become increasingly expensive as oil costs continue to increase.

And not *anything* would work in Bogota. TransMilenio competes with busetas, nearly as many taxis as cars, and increasingly the lure of "my own car". It does so successfully becuase during rush hours it is faster than driving the same routes *and* attractive to riders. Many of the station features it has contribute to both the speed of the system, the accessibility for those who are wheel-based, and the overall capacity. Lastly, and possibly most importantly it was affordable - they would not have been able to afford the 85 kms in 10 years that they have if it were rail.

If you can't afford rail, but you need solid transit, then you want a full-feature BRT and the Bogota model is a great example.
http://www.itdp.org/documents/Annex1%202007%2009.pdf

Last edited by adrimm; January 18th, 2008 at 05:30 AM. Reason: Addition
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:45 AM   #2437
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Kamloops has grown quite substantially for the past three or so years, and about 7 years ago the population was at 80,000. I'm pretty sure, but I dont think that we're still stucki at 80,000. Whats sad, is that none of kamloops websites or pretty much anything have updated there page with current populations since like 2001. Emporis had been sitting at 80,000 since I can remember, I think we're at least 92,000 in the city, and I mean Aberdeen, Sahali, Pineview, Downtown, Valleyview, Dallas, Barnhartvale, Juniper, Brock, The NS, Rayleigh and Westsyde. I dont know what would be considered our greater area... Savona maybe but I dont even think 1000 people live there
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Old January 18th, 2008, 05:59 PM   #2438
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BRT/LRT west of Arbutus?

[QUOTE=adrimm;17781380]First, I'm not at all saying that you would want to replace skytrain - I've been talking about that RapidBus segment of the Transit funding

If you can't afford rail, but you need solid transit, then you want a full-feature BRT and the Bogota model is a great example.


I think that the UBC section will be done in stages. The section west of Arbutus could be lrt or brt for a long time.

From former premier Mike Harcourt:


Harcourt supports controversial plans for new Skytrain line to UBC
Jan, 15 2008 - 1:20 PM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Former premier and Vancouver mayor --Mike Harcourt-- supports controversial plans for a new Skytrain line to UBC, but he admits numerous details have to be ironed out.

"And I think that's a really big issue, whether its going to be built all the way out there or whether its going to be built say to arbutus and then, fast bus the rest of the way? I mean, all those issues have got to be addressed yet."

Harcourt says he's confident businesses along Broadway will not face the problems now troubling merchants along the Cambie corridor.


The businesses along Broadway would be just as opposed to a brt or lrt along that avenue since it would consume parking space. Businesses hoped for tunnelled Skytrain along 10th Ave when the 2000 Phase II study by the City of Vancouver was in its consultative stage, and the City decided to support tunneled Skytrain.

Central Broadway rail transit would attract discretionary riders. UBC riders are U-Pass holders, so forced transfers would not deter ridership much between UBC and Arbutus, even if surface transit were used west of Arbutus (or Alma) for many years.

Last edited by splashflash; January 18th, 2008 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old January 18th, 2008, 06:06 PM   #2439
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[QUOTE=adrimm;17755739]That's just it there are none in North America-

Quote:
But in a globalizing world we would be remiss to consider places further abroad where it has worked very well. In this case; perhaps surprisingly to some, Bogota Colombia's TransMilenio and Jakarta's TransJakarta (built after the Bogota model).

I can tell you I was *not*impressed with the idea of BRT when it was presented to me a few years back, but coincidentally I was travelling (backpacking) in South America in 2006 and stopped in Bogota for awhile - and was totally blown away by what I saw.. it's slick - they really went for it. It cannot be compared to B-Line at all.
We should probably call these systems rubber-tyred mini-metros. The acronym BRT has become meaningless. Towns now use BRT for express buses.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #2440
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[QUOTE=splashflash;17791890]
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Originally Posted by adrimm View Post
That's just it there are none in North America-



We should probably call these systems rubber-tyred mini-metros. The acronym BRT has become meaningless. Towns now use BRT for express buses.
This makes alot of sense.

I was really surprised that both things are called BRT considering the enormous gap investment/infrastructure and rider-experiences.
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