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Old January 28th, 2008, 02:32 AM   #2481
UrbanBen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73 View Post
Just like our road system.
Well, with the road system, you can't just scale frequencies. You don't have to re-tunnel, two tracks is enough for anything, you just have to dig out bigger stations. Which I'm sure will be necessary before I'm dead.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 03:23 AM   #2482
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OK OK...............the current EXPO line carries atmost 2 MK11 cars or 6 MK1.
You mean the EXPO will be able 4 MK11 or 12 MK1? ..........that would double capacity.
Also you mean to tell me that the RAV will only hold the equivalent of 4 MK1 cars?

How short sighted. I hope the Broadway/MLine will have stations as long as the EXPO new stations { 4MK11/ 12 MK1} so they won't have to go thru this BS in 20 years but they probably won't. That would require vision which Vancouver and Translink both lack.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 04:11 AM   #2483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
OK OK...............the current EXPO line carries atmost 2 MK11 cars or 6 MK1.
You mean the EXPO will be able 4 MK11 or 12 MK1? ..........that would double capacity.
Also you mean to tell me that the RAV will only hold the equivalent of 4 MK1 cars?

How short sighted. I hope the Broadway/MLine will have stations as long as the EXPO new stations { 4MK11/ 12 MK1} so they won't have to go thru this BS in 20 years but they probably won't. That would require vision which Vancouver and Translink both lack.

You have a misconception of what exactly a Mark II car is.

Below, you have a 2-car Mark II train:


The articulated bend links two Mark II cars together. They don't act as a car together.


So yes, what they mean is a 6-car Mark II train. Here's a graphic of what it would look like, created by alt-bc:


Car 1-Car 2=Car 3-Car 4=Car 5-Car 6


And yes, the Canada Line trains have a 334 passenger capacity. That's the capacity of a 4-car Mark I train (80 passengers x 4 = 320). That's also equivalent to four-40 foot buses or 2.8 60-foot buses.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 04:31 AM   #2484
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i thought the Canada Line trains had a capacity of 400 people. Didn't Kevin Falcon say that in the press conference of the Canada Line train unveiling?
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Old January 28th, 2008, 07:04 AM   #2485
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i thought the Canada Line trains had a capacity of 400 people. Didn't Kevin Falcon say that in the press conference of the Canada Line train unveiling?
400 very friendly people. Just like Link Light Rail cars in Seattle have a "capacity" of 200 people (any train has 2 cars, therefore 400 per train as well), but realistically, you'll only get 175-ish on each car.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 07:44 AM   #2486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
400 very friendly people. Just like Link Light Rail cars in Seattle have a "capacity" of 200 people (any train has 2 cars, therefore 400 per train as well), but realistically, you'll only get 175-ish on each car.
Depends. Some trains in Tokyo carry up to 250% of their design capacity at rush hour - so maybe the Canada Line cars will carry up to 1000 people
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Old January 28th, 2008, 08:06 AM   #2487
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I'm guessing that they got the 400 number from including the addition of the 10m mini car to the original 2 cars.

Having said that I have seen some VERY "cozy" skytrain trips in the last couple years as things have gotten pretty nutty during rush hour lol.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 08:38 AM   #2488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
Well, with the road system, you can't just scale frequencies. You don't have to re-tunnel, two tracks is enough for anything, you just have to dig out bigger stations. Which I'm sure will be necessary before I'm dead.
Sorry. I was actually responding to this specific point.

>>>>>"Some say that the Arbutus line would solve the Canada Line congestion issues, but I doubt it will to a point it would be a long-term solution. It'd certainly relieve some pressure from the Canada Line, but in time again it will be back to just how it was before."

You build any kind of transportation route in a growing city, and in time it will become congested. You expand the capacity or build another route, but either way results in congestion again. That's the nature of cities like ours. It's very much like what happens with highway expansion.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #2489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73 View Post
Sorry. I was actually responding to this specific point.

>>>>>"Some say that the Arbutus line would solve the Canada Line congestion issues, but I doubt it will to a point it would be a long-term solution. It'd certainly relieve some pressure from the Canada Line, but in time again it will be back to just how it was before."

You build any kind of transportation route in a growing city, and in time it will become congested. You expand the capacity or build another route, but either way results in congestion again. That's the nature of cities like ours. It's very much like what happens with highway expansion.
Well yes i totally agree, but I was just saying how people thought the Arubutus line was the god-save solution for the Canada Line. It's like water...build a beaker, and it'll fill up with water. If you build it, they will come.



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i thought the Canada Line trains had a capacity of 400 people. Didn't Kevin Falcon say that in the press conference of the Canada Line train unveiling?
IMO, the 400 passenger capacity figure is bogus. Two years ago, they released the same train specifications and same seating plan - with a passenger capacity of 334 (or 167 per car).

Nothing about the train has changed since. It's still primarily a row seating arrangement, 41-metres long and 3-metres wide.

In comparison, the SkyTrain Mark II articulated trains have a capacity of 260 passengers (130 per car). The Canada Line trains are only 20% wider (0.4 metres) and 5-metres longer. I don't think that calls for that much of a capacity difference. So really, that 400-passenger figure is probably bogus.

In Japan, they might be able to reach that kind of capacity with their unique way of cramming everyone in....but come on, Vancouver? People hardly even know how to move back to the bus here, nevermind cramming in.

The 400-passenger figure would probably be accurate if they had chosen a side seating arrangement instead, like the Hong Kong MTR. In fact, they could probably achieve a capacity even higher than 400-passengers with the side seating arrangement (possibly 500 passengers?). Add in maybe one door to each car as well, for a total of 8-doors on each side...it makes getting in and out a whole lot easier. But that would mean the doors would have to slide in and out outside (to save space, like the existing SkyTrain cars) rather than the pocket doors chosen for the Canada Line trains.

Do you really believe that 400 people can fit into these trains?
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Old January 28th, 2008, 10:20 PM   #2490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
The only way you can "cheaply" increase capacity is:
- buying more cars (there are only 40 cars; makes only 20 trains)
- extending the platforms to 50-metres to fit an additional mini-car
- increase frequency with more trains

... even if Richmond is not a planned growth area.
As well as changing the seat configuration.
The 400 figure must be a "crush" load figure. Usually, two figures are quoted for subway cars - regular and crush load. i.e for the MKI Skytrain - its capacity on a diagram I have is "75 passengers, 40 seated, 35 standing. Up to 110 under crush load conditions." That's an extra 35 passengers (almost 50% more) under "crush load conditions".

And Richmond not being a growth concentration area under the Livable Region Strategic Plan is a key point. The ultimate capacity of the line would have been determined in conjunction with the LRSP - i.e. it must be backed up by the numbers to justify the costs. By comparison, Coquitlam is slated to get a much larger share of the lower mainland's population - and it is slated to get a surface light rail train with even lower capacity than the Canada Line, based on projected ridership.

As for transfers to the Canada Line at Broadway & Cambie, the capacity improvements on the Expo Line should allw riders to take the more direct transfer at Broadway & Commercial from the M-Line to downtown.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 10:59 PM   #2491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73 View Post
You build any kind of transportation route in a growing city, and in time it will become congested. You expand the capacity or build another route, but either way results in congestion again. That's the nature of cities like ours. It's very much like what happens with highway expansion.
I would say the scaling is quite different from highways - congestion on highways increases travel time, and of course the externalities on surface streets cause overall cost to be vastly higher. And on rails, look at Shinkansen or the Yamanote line. You can scale pretty far without increasing the footprint.
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Old January 29th, 2008, 03:57 AM   #2492
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I haven't a clue what you are saying, but it sounds pretty cool.
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Old January 29th, 2008, 10:24 AM   #2493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
So yes, what they mean is a 6-car Mark II train. Here's a graphic of what it would look like, created by alt-bc:


Car 1-Car 2=Car 3-Car 4=Car 5-Car 6
.
now that is a cool picture...How serious are these plans to provide 6-car trains on the Expo line? Any kind of timelines? Are the stations long enough at present?

I suppose it would be ok if the train was, say, 4 m longer than the platform...there must be 2m on each side between the train cab and the first set of doors

Hmmm...If Vancouver does it, KL can do it too...Kelana Jaya line is already 40% over capacity during peak hours...even with 4 carriage, 530 passenger, fully articulated trains they will still be about 19% over capacity

Future KL design (iirc):

Car 1-Car 2-Car 3-Car 4
Car 1-Car 2 = Car 3-Car 4

perhaps we might see this:

Car 1-Car 2-Car 3-Car 4=Car 5-Car 6

Cheers, m
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Old January 29th, 2008, 10:44 AM   #2494
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The Expo Line station improvements and platform extensions will begin in 2009. These improvements will probably be done first, maybe by 2015? There's no timeline to it, not yet. The Surrey Expo Line extension will be done by 2020. These plans are quite serious, definitely not an election promise. Our Premier has put cutting greenhouse gases as a personal goal - he hearts it - and there's every indication right now, unless there's a scandal, that he will be in power for the long haul.

But everything in the $14 billion Transit Plan will be done by 2020. The plan includes purchasing $1 billion worth of additional SkyTrain cars (~300 cars).


Here's another, from alta-bc:
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Old January 29th, 2008, 05:00 PM   #2495
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perhaps we might see this:

Car 1-Car 2-Car 3-Car 4=Car 5-Car 6
You can safely say that will not happen so don't put your hopes up for it. With the way the stations in KL are designed, it wouldn't be economical to fit that configuration in.

The main thing hindering KL from expansion to 6-car trains would be the underground segment. If they can get around that it might be possible but don't hope for it. Look at the way the extensions are being handled there.

So we now go back to the will the Evergreen Line be SkyTrain or Light Rail after all question...
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Old January 30th, 2008, 12:01 AM   #2496
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I drew the Canada Line train as much to scale as I could in CAD and put some ovals based on my size, 50cm shoulder to shoulder, 22.5cm front to back. Based on crush loading, I was able to fit 182 standees in a car. This would be in addtional to the 48 seated passengers and perhaps 3 people in the articulated joint. In theory we could see at least 230 people per car or 463 people in total fit in these trains at crush loading... take away 30 people per car and you get to what Skytrain is probably loaded to in a typical rush hour.

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Old January 30th, 2008, 04:39 AM   #2497
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^ wow, that's pretty good. thanks for the explanation, i guess it might be possible afterall.

btw, are you involved with the project?
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Old January 30th, 2008, 05:19 AM   #2498
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^ wow, that's pretty good. thanks for the explanation, i guess it might be possible afterall.

btw, are you involved with the project?
Anything is possible, I think I've seen a Mark I train with 110 people before! This was when there was a medical emergency at Main St. Science World Station so they had one 6-car Mark-I train shuttle serving Waterfront to Stadium, one 6-car Mark-I train shuttle serving Stadium to Broadway (not stopping at Main St.) People were packing on like crazy because they didn't want to wait 10 minutes for the next shuttle to come. The only time I was more packed on a train was when I got caught on a Chuo Line train leaving central Tokyo during the afternoon rush hour..

I want to see how many more people I can fit on the poor train. Anyone think 500? 600? Haha. Remember the sideways facing seat fold up for wheelchairs, they can also fold up for more standees. The bicycle/luggage area is a great idea as long as they prevent bicycles from getting on the trains in the peak hour direction.... can't really stop people from bringing on luggage though. But they get first dibs on an empty train anyway.

Oh and I'm not involved in the project, I just looked at the interior train photos and guesstimated the dimensions. I want to draw the Mark-I and Mark-II skytrains to compare... I don't think people realize how big the new cars really are, it's a shame there's only two of them for now.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 05:39 AM   #2499
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Quite a few more updates by Tafryn (Jan. 29):
http://canadalinephotos.blogspot.com




BRIDGEPORT STATION AND PARK & RIDE/HOTEL


















YALETOWN-ROUNDHOUSE STATION














FALSE CREEK TUNNEL























OLYMPIC VILLAGE STATION














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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


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Old January 30th, 2008, 07:22 AM   #2500
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Like I said, the increased trains are great but that is 50% greater capcity than now not double.
Currently the stations can handle 2 MK11 cars or 6 MK1. That photo shows capacity at 3MK11 trains or equiv of 9 MK1. Don't get me wrong, that is great but not double.
Also even with that pic that still won't bring it up to subway capacity.
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