daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 1st, 2005, 08:11 PM   #261
Plumber73
I need coffee.
 
Plumber73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,442
Likes (Received): 57

You're such a positive guy!
Plumber73 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 1st, 2005, 09:08 PM   #262
crazyjoeda
Mac User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 6

^ Oh, I feel so sorry for those whinning Cambie Street businesses. They migh loss a little business for a few weeks while construction is right in front of them but come 2009 I doubt they will complain. The same thing happen with M-Line, buisnesses complained and then in 2001 when the line opened they had twice the buisness.

Quote:
They could have killed this project and spared all you Canadian taxpayers the misery. And for what? So little rich kids could joy ride in a near useless subway?
Near useless? How do you mean. We don't want to add more lanes and encourage more cars, like they have done in most US states. Moving 100,000 people between downtown, Ricmond and YVR with out making pollution is deffinatly a good thing.
__________________
Vancouver, site of the next Winter Olympic Games in 2010!
British Columbia, Canada. "The best place on earth."
crazyjoeda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2005, 09:40 PM   #263
[email protected]
Philippine Forum Mod
 
queetz@home's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ortigas (Pasig City)
Posts: 3,680
Likes (Received): 3029

Ah but the construction doesn't just happen for a "few weeks". More like months at a section or even years of disruption. A business owner relies on undisrupted traffic in order to survive as they have fixed costs

One thing I know about Portland's LRT construction though is the Tri-Met officials worked hand in hand with the affected businesses, ensuring that construction crews patronize the adjacent businesses through vouchers. At the same time, I think tax breaks were given (not sure so don't quote me on that). So at least the businesses affected by the construction of the MAX LRT and streetcars are compensated. In the case of RAVCO, it seems that they have no intention of assisting and compensating the business owners. The relationship has been a battleground and that's not a good way of building a subway.

As far as useless, the fact of the matter is the geography of the GVRD is predominantly rectangular, stretching from west to east. Much of the future growth happens in the east, as well as future employment centers. Rapid transit expansion should reflect its shape.

But in the case of RAV, you are extending an almost $2 billion subway on a north-south route on

1) An airport that, according to RAVCOs own study, will only constitute 10% of ridership
2) On a downtown area that is slowly becoming a resort as more commercial land and buildings are taken away by residential development, demanded not by working yuppies, but by speculators and retirees
3) On a sparsely populated corridor that has no intention of densifying its residential and commercial base because of the usual NIMBYs
4) On a car oriented suburb that is not growing much compared to others, given its geographical nature, the ALR policies, and proximity to flight paths

all at the cost of $1.8 billion, which was driven NOT by inflation, high price of construction materials, and labour shortages, but rather by rich Vancouver westside creme de la creme who do not want to see a train high above their homes. As a result, given the factors I mentioned above, if the RAV does not sustain its miniumum 100k a day ridership, every poor GVRD resident will be paying SNC Lavalin subsidies for the next 35 years.

So again, how can you justify those things?
queetz@home no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 01:51 AM   #264
Overground
Registered User
 
Overground's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,593
Likes (Received): 125

To say this line shouldn't be built is insane. I for one have worked and travelled on Cambie St. for years via public transport. This thing should have been built years ago. Throughout the day the traffic on that street, including packed buses is chock-full of people and cars and pissed off commuters. Do you naysayers live or work on Cambie Street?

On average I have to walk from King Edward to 12th to go to work because either the bus is not on time or packed. In fact, I can outpace the bus from about 21st to 12th. When coming home in rush hour the Cambie bus service is even worse with hot stinky conditions that is unbearable on wet winter days or hot summers. Actually all the time. These buses are busy from the morning rush hour till about 9pm Mon-Sat.

This route has commuters coming from Richmond, YVR, Langara College, a YMCA, Oakridge Centre shopping mall(that wants to expand), QE Park(tourists), commuters coming from East Van(49th, 41st, King Ed<<<quickest alternative to get downtown), CitySquare mall, City Hall, new big box/grocery outlets going into the Cambie-Broadway area, lively Yaletown, Downtown! Also the Vancouver General Hospital complex and Canadian Cancer Society is a couple blocks off Cambie. On top of that all the school kids that cram into the buses during rush hour which come from 8 elementary schools and 2 high schools that are within a short walk of the new line.

This line is being built for the future. People like to take trains. They will take trains. It's a more comfortable, faster, attractive option then a bus. Ask anyone in the world that has an urban rail network if they would rather take a train or a bus and they will tell you if they have to take a bus they'd rather drive. When this line is complete I'm confident it will attract the minimum ridership required and in fact I think it is going to be such a success that it's going to be busier than anticipated and they will have to add more cars.
Overground no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 02:50 AM   #265
Overground
Registered User
 
Overground's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,593
Likes (Received): 125

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Ah but the construction doesn't just happen for a "few weeks". More like months at a section or even years of disruption. A business owner relies on undisrupted traffic in order to survive as they have fixed costs.
I think it will be a couple of months per section but our media likes to blow things out of proportion. On the RAV site is states that the portion of Cambie from 12th to 29th(on the east side of the street) will be built early 2007 to late 2007. We'll say 12 months. That works out to 1.4 blocks per month. I can't find the info now but I remember reading that they will build in 3 block increments. However, if that is the case then we should be looking at a worse case scenario that the 3 blocks from 16th(Chevron) to 20th(Starbucks) will have to endure a max of 3 months of building. This is the location of most of the complaints.

Let's look at the business that will be affected on Cambie above Broadway to Oakridge at 41st on the east side.

-9th-12th, No business.
-12th-16th, an abandoned gas station, White Spot(they have parking in back, a mini plaza(parking), Asian restaurant(parking) and a few other shops with no parking.
-16th-20th, lots of little shops with almost all with no parking.
-21st-24th, No business.
-24th-25th, a few shops with no parking.
-25th-39th, No business.
-40th-41st, a few shops and an abandoned gas station.

We're talking about 7.5 blocks from the White Spot to Starbucks. 1 block at King Ed and 1.5 blocks near 41st. What people have also not looked at is most of these businesses do not get their sales from car drivers but people that actually live in the neighbourhood that walk. I know because I used to live on 20th. These people will still shop at these places.


Ok it sucks that these businesses could lose profits(Im not against some form of reimbursement) for up to 3 months but we are talking about a major transportation project that will positively benefit the environment and millions of commuters over the coming decades. This can get people out of cars and into public transport. This can change the way people view their transportation needs to get to and from work. Without it we are fooked!
Overground no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 03:25 AM   #266
[email protected]
Philippine Forum Mod
 
queetz@home's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ortigas (Pasig City)
Posts: 3,680
Likes (Received): 3029

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overground
To say this line shouldn't be built is insane. I for one have worked and travelled on Cambie St. for years via public transport. This thing should have been built years ago. Throughout the day the traffic on that street, including packed buses is chock-full of people and cars and pissed off commuters. Do you naysayers live or work on Cambie Street?

On average I have to walk from King Edward to 12th to go to work because either the bus is not on time or packed. In fact, I can outpace the bus from about 21st to 12th. When coming home in rush hour the Cambie bus service is even worse with hot stinky conditions that is unbearable on wet winter days or hot summers. Actually all the time. These buses are busy from the morning rush hour till about 9pm Mon-Sat.

This route has commuters coming from Richmond, YVR, Langara College, a YMCA, Oakridge Centre shopping mall(that wants to expand), QE Park(tourists), commuters coming from East Van(49th, 41st, King Ed<<<quickest alternative to get downtown), CitySquare mall, City Hall, new big box/grocery outlets going into the Cambie-Broadway area, lively Yaletown, Downtown! Also the Vancouver General Hospital complex and Canadian Cancer Society is a couple blocks off Cambie. On top of that all the school kids that cram into the buses during rush hour which come from 8 elementary schools and 2 high schools that are within a short walk of the new line.

This line is being built for the future. People like to take trains. They will take trains. It's a more comfortable, faster, attractive option then a bus. Ask anyone in the world that has an urban rail network if they would rather take a train or a bus and they will tell you if they have to take a bus they'd rather drive. When this line is complete I'm confident it will attract the minimum ridership required and in fact I think it is going to be such a success that it's going to be busier than anticipated and they will have to add more cars.
You are obviously missing my point. I am not against a train up at Cambie. I am against at the fact that it is a subway even though it doesn't have to be. Subways are justified in ultra dense cities like New York, London or Toronto. The Cambie Corridior isn't exactly lined up with skyscrapers or crowded sidewalks.

A properly planned system similar to our Portland MAX LRT or even an elevated system similar to the Skytrain lines in other parts of the GVRD is sufficient for the RAV Line but why are such systems not being built? Why is tunneling the only option when it comes to rail projects in the Westside of Vancouver?

And as for the Cambie Merchants, just compensate them for God's sake! Its the only fair solution. I don't know why they should suffer just because the Westside creme de la creme doesn't want to see a train across their precious "heritage" boulevard.
queetz@home no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 06:27 PM   #267
KGB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: TO
Posts: 5,767
Likes (Received): 48

"-9th-12th, No business.
-12th-16th, an abandoned gas station, White Spot(they have parking in back, a mini plaza(parking), Asian restaurant(parking) and a few other shops with no parking.
-16th-20th, lots of little shops with almost all with no parking.
-21st-24th, No business.
-24th-25th, a few shops with no parking.
-25th-39th, No business.
-40th-41st, a few shops and an abandoned gas station."



One might ask why a RT line is even being built through such a not-happening corridor in the first place. I mean, if it's the "build-it-and-they-will-come" thing, then that's fine....but this is suburbanish vancouver...not Toronto...who is really going to "come".





KGB
KGB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 09:36 PM   #268
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

^ and what would you know?
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 09:48 PM   #269
KGB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: TO
Posts: 5,767
Likes (Received): 48

Not much...but that's I posed that as a question...hoping someone might enlighten me. So far, all I've gotten is your response, which I'm afraid probably doesn't qualify as enlightened.





KGB
KGB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 10:05 PM   #270
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
Not much...but that's I posed that as a question...hoping someone might enlighten me. So far, all I've gotten is your response, which I'm afraid probably doesn't qualify as enlightened.

KGB
That is exactly what people in the 80s said for the Expo Line.....who really says that nowadays? Who regrets building the Expo Line? By 2020, nobody will be regretting RAV was built.


According to RAVco, the existing 99 B-Line would be replaced with the new Canada Line. It's commuters would use the Canada Line instead. That's where nearly half of the ridership is coming from. There's also the tens of thousands of people who use Cambie bus routes that would be using RAV instead.

What's the result? People won't have to wait for late and crammed rapid buses (B-Line) or the late and crammed trolleys. Add in the additional riders that RAV will create, that's 100,000 passengers/day. Another ten years, 2020, the line will have 150,000 passengers.

Please note that this project is part of the GVRD Livable Region Strategic Plan. RAV has been around for three decades and it has finally taken off. In the early 1990s, SkyTrain was planned for RAV to be completed around this year......that got cancelled.

Plan for a hundred years, not 20.
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 10:20 PM   #271
[email protected]
Philippine Forum Mod
 
queetz@home's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ortigas (Pasig City)
Posts: 3,680
Likes (Received): 3029

I'm curious, mr X. Are you and Overground the same person? Since you two think alike with your same old "plan for a hundred years, not 20". But note that in a hundred years time, Richmond wouldn't grow much because of geographical reasons as compared to, say the Northeast Sector, and given that Vancouver is turning into a retirement community, its commercial significant would decline even further. Besides, in a hundred years, we may have flying cars, hence no need for RAV or connection to an airport.

I'm also curious why you keep saying this was being planned for 30 years. The only project that I know was being planned for 30 years is the Coquitlam rapid transit, which was in the drawing board since 1975. I think RAV just appeared in the mid 1980s at the earliest.

Gee....Skytrain, a train high up in ther sky, to the airport was cancelled. I wonder why?

Last edited by [email protected]; July 2nd, 2005 at 10:25 PM.
queetz@home no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 10:36 PM   #272
officedweller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,379
Likes (Received): 98

wrt planning for the RAV line, the RAV site cites rapid transit reports dating from 1970:

http://www.ravprapidtransit.com/en/reports.php

A concrete plan for the construction of a Richmond Line as Skytrain along with Coquitlam and Surrey extensions were announced by the Socred government in about 1990 - then the plan was axed when the NDP came into power.

****************

BTW - SNC-Lavalin's proposal for a fully tunneled line came in at a lower cost bid than Bombardier's proposal which had the line in an open trench south of 49th Ave.. If you get more tunnel for a lower cost, you take it.

Also the City of Vanvcouver would never allow an at-grade system downtown - that's why some Translink Board Members reversed their votes on RAV - they realized an at-grade option was impossible.

Remember, Vancouver has no freeways to downtown - so its arterial roads play a more critical role than they do in cities that do have freeways - and the City (despite its pro-environmental stance) does not wnat to reduce road capacity (it won't expand it either) - just look at the debate over removing two lanes from the Burrard Bridge for bike lanes.

*************
To add to the list of ridership generators here's an ad hoc list along the line south of False Creek part of the route.

The Cambie Village shopping area is NOT the primary reason to justify passenger ridership along the route. i.e. there's no station at 16th Ave. (likely due to technical reasons (the slope of the line).

GVRD rapid transit lines are about linking Regional Town Centres. The routes chosen take into account best ridership.

Seawall to 6th Ave - False Creek community centre, lowrise and midrise condos, COV's southeast False Creek sustainable community (temporarily to be the Olympic village), South False Creek Station site to be a mixed use transit oriented development on City-owned land and to connect with B-line bus to UBC along west 6th (starting in 2006) and False Creek Streetcar.

6th Ave to Broadway (9th Ave) - COV Police Station, Canadian Tire, Best Buy (open next month), The Rise (Save-on-Foods, Winners, Homesense, Linens & Things plus lofts, opening in 2007?), Fairchild Plaza Redevelopment (Whole Foods Market, large drug store, office tower and condo tower to open in 2008?), Government liquor store, London Drugs, numerous highrise office buildings in the Broadway corridor; transfer station at Broadway to future M-Line extension.

Broadway to 12th Ave - City Hall complex (to be expanded on City-owned whole block from Broadway to 10th Ave. in a transit oriented development; City Square (Safeway, shops and highrise and midrise condos; Plaza 500 hotel, Vancouver Hospital 2 blocks away; BC Cancer Agency 2 blocks away; BC Centre for Disease Control; numerous other hospital related health care and research facilties;

12th Ave to 16th Ave. - some shops and lowrise condo developments in upper Fairview.

16th Ave to King Edward Ave (25th Ave) - shops (Choices Market, Varsity theatre), midrise condos on former BC Transit bus yard site, new midrise development on former Produce City site; lowrise condos in upper Fairview; connection to King Edward bus route.

25th Ave to 41st Ave. - single family homes, Queen Elizabeth Park (Bloedel Conserrvatory, tennis courts, pitch & putt golf), future bus route along 33rd Ave, St Vincent Hospital Lands to be redeveloped, Children's and Women's Hospital close-by on Oak Street.

41st Ave to 49th Ave - duplex and single family homes, Oakridge shopping centre (Bay, Zellers, Safeway), midrise condo towers adjacent to Oakridge Shopping Centre, St. John Ambulance offices, Oakridge area to be densified (townhouses, lowrises, midrises) under CityPlan, Oakridge transit centre lands to be redeveloped at Oak Street, Lubavitch Community Centre at Oak;

49th Ave to 63rd Ave. - single family homes, some multifamily homes, Vancouver Community College (Langara) on 49th Ave., South Slopes YMCA, Langara Golf Course. Future station at 57th Ave to serve existing highrises and future redevelopment of Pearson Hospital lands. Marine Drive Station to link with east-west bus routes. Light industrial businesses in area.
__________________
officedweller

Last edited by officedweller; July 2nd, 2005 at 10:58 PM.
officedweller no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 10:57 PM   #273
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
I'm curious, mr X. Are you and Overground the same person? Since you two think alike with your same old "plan for a hundred years, not 20". But note that in a hundred years time, Richmond wouldn't grow much because of geographical reasons as compared to, say the Northeast Sector, and given that Vancouver is turning into a retirement community, its commercial significant would decline even further. Besides, in a hundred years, we may have flying cars, hence no need for RAV or connection to an airport.

I'm also curious why you keep saying this was being planned for 30 years. The only project that I know was being planned for 30 years is the Coquitlam rapid transit, which was in the drawing board since 1975. I think RAV just appeared in the mid 1980s at the earliest.

Gee....Skytrain, a train high up in ther sky, to the airport was cancelled. I wonder why?
Me and Overground are not the same person and a moderator cleared that up awhile ago. I'm also curious. Are you and queetz the same person?

RAV won't be only serving Richmond. Don't forget that it also will serve Delta, Tsawassen and White Rock as commuters will making transfers from bus to the line at Richmond City Centre and in the future, the line could be extended to those cities using LRT. Quite a bit of growth can happen in those cities. And don't forget about the airport, YVR, that is constantly expanding.

Flying cars? Please be realistic. and besides, a hundred years ago, they said we would have flying cars by 1950. What happened? Don't forget flying cars would require airports EVERYWHERE.

Read officedweller's post on RAV being a three decade project.

The 1990s RAV SkyTrain project was cancelled because of an incompetent NDP government. At that time, the line would have costed half a billion dollars with SkyTrain and they considered it expensive. The cancelled it because of cost, not NIMBYism. It's three times that today.
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 11:08 PM   #274
officedweller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,379
Likes (Received): 98

Here's an article for March 11, 1990 from the Province newspaper and a brochure on the Skytrain extensions announced back then. Note that this was before the NDP implemented the WestCoast Express commuter train to serve their NDP northeast sector ridings (as opposed to the Socred's Richmond ridings) - yes - it's all political:





__________________
officedweller

Last edited by officedweller; July 2nd, 2005 at 11:17 PM.
officedweller no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 11:27 PM   #275
[email protected]
Philippine Forum Mod
 
queetz@home's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ortigas (Pasig City)
Posts: 3,680
Likes (Received): 3029

Umm...no!

I haven't seen queetz post here and according to his profile, he is an "ASF chief moderator", with a huge signature line for the Asian Skyscraper Forum (his Paul Martin avatar is hilarious). I don't remember seeing him around this area (maybe he just posts in the Asian Forums as Skyscrapercity seems pretty big) and only saw him in the Vancouver Transport Forum before the site went off line and that hilarious Highrise Canada thread. I looked at it again and I noticed you mentioned him listening to a "Wayne" guy from the Vancouver Transport Forum.

"Secondly, you're gonna listen to that retard Wayne who just assumes i'm rich because i live on the westside of town? Give me a break....that's like Torontians saying all British Columbians smoke weed."

I'm assuming you are referring to me as "Wayne".

Who is queetz, anyway? I noticed he was mentioned by another forumer in the Las Vegas BRT thread but I have yet to see him post in this section of Skyscrapercity.

As far as Delta, how can RAV possible serve them? Its much faster to use the Expo Line since its closer. Delta residents will have to drive or bus a long way just to get to Richmond city center. And if I recall, Tsawassen and White Rock commuters are getting shafted big time since instead of a straight trip to downtown via express bus, they will now be shuffled into RAV just to satisfy those stupid ridership performance targets.

Who knows what will happen in a hundred years but I'm sure a little kid wouldn't know that for sure. Flying cars are different from airplanes because they don't need airports. Duh!

And given officedweller's link leads us to non accessible public documents, am I just suppose to take your word for it?

RAV Skytrain was cancelled because the creme de la creme decided to make Cambie a "Heritage Boulevard". I see now you are defending NIMBYism. If I recall, even officedweller acknowledged a few pages back that NIMBYism is the main caused. So despite your claims you do not support the creme de la creme, clearly you are defending them and are now putting the blame on the defunct NDP government. I'm sorry but you should just accept the fact that you are part of the reason why this project is such a bad deal to all the GVRD and acknowledge it.
queetz@home no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2005, 11:54 PM   #276
officedweller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,379
Likes (Received): 98

The reason the 1990 RAV Skytrain was cancelled was because it was a Socred project meant to serve Socred ridings (constituencies) - the NDP changed focus to serve their northeast ridings - leading to WestCoast Express and the Millennium Line. Millennium Line extensions were then cancelled by the Socreds' succesors, the Liberals, who changed focus back to Richmond - with the RAV line.

The NIMBY heritage activists merely took advantage of the reversal to designate the boulevard and plant lots of trees in anticipation of a fiuture line.

Even back in the 1990s, Cambie was acknowledged as the front runner of the two route options based on ridership - i.e. the various options varied between LRT for Arbutus and Skytrain for Cambie.

**********
Ladner and Tswassen (sp?) are in Delta. You're thinking of North Delta which is by the Alex Fraser Bridge (and really should be part of Surrey, the same way that South Surrey should really be part of White Rock). The main part of Delta (including the municipal hall) is just south of the George Massey Tunnel.

*************
The date given on the RAV website for the report is 1970. But if you want another reference, read the BC Transit 2001 Multiple Account Evaluation Report linked on the same page.

This report, prepared by IBI Group and PriceWaterhouseCoopers states:

Background
The Richmond/Airport – Vancouver corridor is one of the most rapidly growing corridors in the
Lower Mainland. This growth has been particularly strong in recent years as a result of the
economic development generated in the vicinity of the Vancouver International Airport resulting
from the “open skies” air policy. Over the next 20 years, population and employment are
projected to grow dramatically in this corridor, particularly in the Richmond and airport area, as
well as substantial employment growth in the downtown. This demographic growth is forecast
to result in a 2021 demand of 1.5 million daily trips in this corridor.

This corridor has been identified as a major transit corridor since 1970. A study in 1992
confirmed that this corridor is one of the highest priority rapid transit corridors in the region.
Recent studies undertaken by Transport Canada and by the Vancouver International Airport
have confirmed the need for rapid transit in this corridor.

While all studies recognize the importance of this corridor as a rapid transit corridor, timing of
implementation is not clear. Transport 2021 proposed 2006 in-service date for rapid transit, but
the earliest date appears more realistically to be 2010. At this point, a decision regarding
whether the early date will be pursued, or not, is required.
__________________
officedweller

Last edited by officedweller; July 3rd, 2005 at 12:03 AM.
officedweller no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2005, 12:03 AM   #277
[email protected]
Philippine Forum Mod
 
queetz@home's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ortigas (Pasig City)
Posts: 3,680
Likes (Received): 3029

Ok. Fair enough. I never lived in the GVRD full time so I got confused with Delta. My argument still stands though since they are still being forced to use RAV even though their existing transit services are okay for their needs. But why spend all that money just for tunneling when even the original plans indicate its elevated? That IS the million dollar question, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
The reason the 1990 RAV Skytrain was cancelled was because it was a Socred project meant to serve Socred ridings (constituencies) - the NDP changed focus to serve their northeast ridings - leading to WestCoast Express and the Millennium Line. Millennium Line extensions were then cancelled by the Socreds' succesors, the Liberals, who changed focus back to Richmond - with the RAV line.

The NIMBY heritage activists merely took advantage of the reversal to designate the boulevard and plant lots of trees in anticipation of a fiuture line.

Even back in the 1990s, Cambie was acknowledged as the front runner of the two route options based on ridership - i.e. the various options varied between LRT for Arbutus and Skytrain for Cambie.


Edit: Well, I guess you answered my question, officedweller. Now if only mr X and the RAV supporters just acknowledge that fact and accept the fact that the project in its current form is a bad deal, as pointed out by myself, ssiguy and KGB. After all, the main reason why RAV is so expensive and controversial, even to this day (e.g. Cambie merchants) is the influence of the creme de la creme with regards to this project and the escalating costs as a result that will now have to be paid by the rest of the GVRD, whether they directly benefit from RAV or not and also resulting in the delay, cancellation or downgrade of much needed projects elsewhere.

Last edited by [email protected]; July 3rd, 2005 at 12:11 AM.
queetz@home no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2005, 12:19 AM   #278
officedweller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,379
Likes (Received): 98

Where the City of Vancouver has pandered to the NIMBYists - is not in the choice of technology or the choice of route (which weren't really within their control) - but in the built form.

This is a City Council used to getting a lot out of developers regarding public benefits and perks - they won't tolerate anything that has a negative impact on the built environment.

The 1990 RAV plan had the line elevated on the Cambie Boulevard south of 37th Ave. - tunnel north of that was supposedly required due to the steep grades. Had that plan gone ahead, it's likely that there would be an elevated line on Cambie to this day.

Even with the Millennium Line, the City of Vancouver only agreed to the elevated line because it was being routed away from homes through the light industrial lands of Grandview and False Creek Flats.

After the impacts seen with the Expo Line, the City doesn't want ANY elevated lines through the City of Vancouver - whether on the east side or the west side.

As for the Arbutus corridor, the City rezoned it to prohibit an elevated line or roadway - but it still allows an at-grade rail line. It is slated to have a streetcar line on it in the future. That will certainly have impacts as well - even on the west side (and I'll bet there will be NIMBYs out in force).

***********

I don't think RAV is a bad deal - it's an automated exclusive ROW system that will provide fast service well into the future - and the price isn't hugely out of line - just look at the Seattle Monorail problems or even the Seattle Link Light Rail project having been truncated.
__________________
officedweller

Last edited by officedweller; July 3rd, 2005 at 12:26 AM.
officedweller no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2005, 12:21 AM   #279
[email protected]
Philippine Forum Mod
 
queetz@home's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ortigas (Pasig City)
Posts: 3,680
Likes (Received): 3029

^ Why couldn't Vancouver pay for the tunneling then? I understand why the region has to be involved since the project technically goes outside the city of Vancouver's boundaries but the regional payout should only be on the bare bones of any regional project. If there are any desired "improvements" such as tunneling, then the city demanding the improvements should cough up the funds and charge the once demanding it instead of billing everyone from West Vancouver to Langley for it.
queetz@home no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2005, 12:39 AM   #280
officedweller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,379
Likes (Received): 98

The actual built form of the project has come from the proponents.

The Request for Proposals required tunnel downtown (due to interference with traffic on short blocks); tunnel under False Creek (the space for a bridge option is east of Cambie Bridge and that wouldn't serve the Yaletown Downtown South area); and tunnel up the hill to Oakridge. The 1990 project had tunnel to 37th Ave. This project had tunnel required to at least 46th Ave - supposedly because an at-grade option would have required underpasses under 41st Ave. and the turning lanes to the mall north of 45th Ave.. South of 46th the RFP required in tunnel, at-grade or in trench - but not elevated (the City's aforementioned distaste for elevated lines after Skytrain).

The City did not require a tunnel - it just prohibited elevated.
The combination of an exclusive ROW, however, and the prohibition of elevated, basically meant tunnel or trench, since an at-grade would have had to duck under so many major intersections.

Bombardier proposed an open trench south of 49th Ave. in the middle of the road. There's a big hydro cable (or gas main?) under the boulevard - so an open trench would have required relocating that.

SNC Lavalin proposed all tunnel (ie south of 49th Ave) - but their tunnel is made of precast segments (cheaper to install) and in under the roadway - so no hydro cable to relocate.

SNC's bid was cheaper than Bombardier's bid.

RAVco chose the cheaper bid - even though Bombardier's Skytrain technology had shorter bheadways than SNC's automated light metro techniology. The cheaper bid even had to be negotiated down a bit to hit the project targets.

So even if RAVco had chosen Bombardier's open trench option - it would have been more expensive than SNC's full tunnel option.

You can see the brief comparison of the bids in the "recommended" report here:

http://www.ravprapidtransit.com/en/bafo.php
__________________
officedweller

Last edited by officedweller; July 3rd, 2005 at 12:46 AM.
officedweller no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
british columbia, canada, vancouver

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium