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Old July 3rd, 2005, 01:15 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
The City did not require a tunnel - it just prohibited elevated.
The combination of an exclusive ROW, however, and the prohibition of elevated, basically meant tunnel or trench, since an at-grade would have had to duck under so many major intersections.
So the city was being a smart ass. They say they don't require a tunnel but require exclusive ROW and yet prohibit elevated, thus requiring the tunnel anyway in order to achieve their demands. If they did not prohibit elevated, then the project would have ended up being cheaper in an elevated form and still accomplish the performance requirements of the project. Of course, the savings could have easily been passed to enhance other projects in the GVRD. But I guess satisfying the demands of the creme de la creme of no elevated system is much more important than getting the best bang out of your buck and spreading the wealth for everyone to benefit.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 02:17 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
"-9th-12th, No business.
-12th-16th, an abandoned gas station, White Spot(they have parking in back, a mini plaza(parking), Asian restaurant(parking) and a few other shops with no parking.
-16th-20th, lots of little shops with almost all with no parking.
-21st-24th, No business.
-24th-25th, a few shops with no parking.
-25th-39th, No business.
-40th-41st, a few shops and an abandoned gas station."



One might ask why a RT line is even being built through such a not-happening corridor in the first place. I mean, if it's the "build-it-and-they-will-come" thing, then that's fine....but this is suburbanish vancouver...not Toronto...who is really going to "come".


KGB

That is by far the stupidest thing you have ever said. Your saying that if it was Toronto companies would be jumping at the opportunity to have real estate along a subway line, but since its Vancouver nobody will care?

LOL, Please get over your self.

If history is any indication development along the RAV line will intence as it has been along both the Millenium and Expo Lines.

The RAV corridor has many, many major employment and commerce centres already in place.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 02:27 AM   #283
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Wally and KGB, why do you guys care so much about the 2billion dollar cost? Neither of you live in Vancouver.

According to a recent poll 82% of people in Greater Vancouver support the project in its current forum.

The only people in this thread that have said this is a waste of money are people who don't live in Greater Vancouver.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 05:21 AM   #284
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"That is by far the stupidest thing you have ever said. "


I dunno...I've said some pretty stupid things.







"Your saying that if it was Toronto companies would be jumping at the opportunity to have real estate along a subway line, but since its Vancouver nobody will care? LOL, Please get over your self. "


Well, first of all...it's not about "me"...I don't take any credit, or any personal pleasure regarding the subject....I'm just stating reality...not bragging. And yes, in the city of Toronto, you can do this, because the lines are not built to serve suburban commuters and are designed much differently....and the amount of population and development increases can make this a reality in the CITY of Toronto.

I am one of those people who are all for rapid transit in vancouver...spend all the money you want. All I'm discussing is the reality that the area is not ideal for it....Vancouver is limited in it's public transit abilities because of the reality of it's built form.





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Old July 3rd, 2005, 06:04 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

If history is any indication development along the RAV line will intence as it has been along both the Millenium and Expo Lines.

The RAV corridor has many, many major employment and commerce centres already in place.
Ah but you do not take into account the fact that the city of Vancouver has no intention of densifying the Cambie Corridor the same way Burnaby has densified the Expo Line and Millenium Line routes or how Surrey is trying to revitalize Whalley. I doubt if we would see Central City style developments, both in terms of offices and residential, in Cambie ever that will actually justify the line! And those major employment and commercial centers are puny compared to what's going on in the suburbs of Vancouver.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 06:32 AM   #286
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Gentlemen,

Please try to keep this discussion polite. I don't understand the level of rancor. Canadians are usually so civil. You are arguing like a bunch of Australians.

Thank you,
GV
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 07:00 AM   #287
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Quote:
Who knows what will happen in a hundred years but I'm sure a little kid wouldn't know that for sure. Flying cars are different from airplanes because they don't need airports. Duh!

And given officedweller's link leads us to non accessible public documents, am I just suppose to take your word for it?

RAV Skytrain was cancelled because the creme de la creme decided to make Cambie a "Heritage Boulevard". I see now you are defending NIMBYism. If I recall, even officedweller acknowledged a few pages back that NIMBYism is the main caused. So despite your claims you do not support the creme de la creme, clearly you are defending them and are now putting the blame on the defunct NDP government. I'm sorry but you should just accept the fact that you are part of the reason why this project is such a bad deal to all the GVRD and acknowledge it.
Uhhh. They've already said that it's impossible to have flying cars without having airports everywhere.

Well actually, I had no idea about that it was the creme de la creme that made Cambie a Heritage Boulevard. I had always assumed the heritage boulevard has been around since forever. No, I am not supporting the NIMBY's because the fact is that the NDP is largely responsible for killing RAV SkyTrain. But I will also accept the fact that the creme de la creme, to some extent, as officedweller details, was also responsible for killing the 1990 plan.



Quote:
Now if only mr X and the RAV supporters just acknowledge that fact and accept the fact that the project in its current form is a bad deal, as pointed out by myself, ssiguy and KGB. After all, the main reason why RAV is so expensive and controversial, even to this day (e.g. Cambie merchants) is the influence of the creme de la creme with regards to this project and the escalating costs as a result that will now have to be paid by the rest of the GVRD, whether they directly benefit from RAV or not and also resulting in the delay, cancellation or downgrade of much needed projects elsewhere.
As I have stated many times before, I do not support the tunneling of RAV south of Queen Elizabeth Park where it is clearly possible. It's insane to have anything at-grade or elevated in downtown and it's not practicle to have it elevated over the creek. It's also not practicle to have it from Queen Elizabeth Park to False Creek. Why? There is no greenway north of King Edward meaning that elevated or at-grade would require the destruction of two very needed traffic lanes on Cambie. QE Park is also in the way.

All this means that the line should be elevated south of QE Park. It's clearly possible but it looks like RAVO is having the line as subway to all the way to Marine Drive. I do not believe in protecting that stupid greenway on Cambie.




Quote:
Well, first of all...it's not about "me"...I don't take any credit, or any personal pleasure regarding the subject....I'm just stating reality...not bragging. And yes, in the city of Toronto, you can do this, because the lines are not built to serve suburban commuters and are designed much differently....and the amount of population and development increases can make this a reality in the CITY of Toronto.

I am one of those people who are all for rapid transit in vancouver...spend all the money you want. All I'm discussing is the reality that the area is not ideal for it....Vancouver is limited in it's public transit abilities because of the reality of it's built form.
You don't have any personal pleasure regarding the subject? Come on! That's the biggest lie in the topic - you clearly hate Vancouver! You can't even be positive about the city for one post - even Wally has done that!

Fine, we'll almagate the city of Vancouver with Richmond, Burnaby and the three municipalities on the North Shore. That's what Toronto has done - CONSUME EVERYTHING, so stop this surburban commuting crap. If those cities that used to exist, that are now consumed by Toronto, didn't almagate, Toronto would also have this "suburban commuting" nonsense.

Vancouver will be limited in it's public transit abilities if it doesn't build now!That's the problem Vancouver has from the start, unlike other Canadian cities. It's a reversible situation, not a dead end as you ignorantly dictate.




Quote:
Ah but you do not take into account the fact that the city of Vancouver has no intention of densifying the Cambie Corridor the same way Burnaby has densified the Expo Line and Millenium Line routes or how Surrey is trying to revitalize Whalley. I doubt if we would see Central City style developments, both in terms of offices and residential, in Cambie ever that will actually justify the line! And those major employment and commercial centers are puny compared to what's going on in the suburbs of Vancouver.
Give the city time. It may not be right away that the corridor is densified. All we need is the right council with Gordy attitudes in the city hall throne.......the Oakridge area will be rezoned to dense office/residential in a few years.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 07:01 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine
Gentlemen,

Please try to keep this discussion polite. I don't understand the level of rancor. Canadians are usually so civil. You are arguing like a bunch of Australians.

Thank you,
GV

It's a very delicate and complicated subject.......but ok.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 08:23 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
"That is by far the stupidest thing you have ever said. "


I dunno...I've said some pretty stupid things.







"Your saying that if it was Toronto companies would be jumping at the opportunity to have real estate along a subway line, but since its Vancouver nobody will care? LOL, Please get over your self. "


Well, first of all...it's not about "me"...I don't take any credit, or any personal pleasure regarding the subject....I'm just stating reality...not bragging. And yes, in the city of Toronto, you can do this, because the lines are not built to serve suburban commuters and are designed much differently....and the amount of population and development increases can make this a reality in the CITY of Toronto.

I am one of those people who are all for rapid transit in vancouver...spend all the money you want. All I'm discussing is the reality that the area is not ideal for it....Vancouver is limited in it's public transit abilities because of the reality of it's built form.



KGB
Are you insane? We are talking about the same Vancouver? Obviusly you don't know very much about Vancouver and our transit system. Im not sure why you think Skytrain is anymore of commuter train then Toronto's subway, because Skytrain and Toronto's subway both serve exactly the same purpose and that is to move people around the city.

Toronto has no more power to attract buissness and Condo's to a rapid transit corridor then other cities like Montreal, Vancouver or even Calgary.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 08:24 AM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine
Gentlemen,

Please try to keep this discussion polite. I don't understand the level of rancor. Canadians are usually so civil. You are arguing like a bunch of Australians.

Thank you,
GV
Well, if there is one observation I can tell you with my experience living in the Vancouver area last year, transit is the single most contentious issue for that metro area. A lot of people in this forum claim that it is an excellent world system, blah blah blah, but in reality, all Vancouverites do is whine and complain about how bad their current transit and transportation system is. Can't really blame them given that the end result of the improvements are simply because of politics, as officedweller pointed out. If the provincial and civic leaders of Vancouver simply put these silly lame ass politics aside and plan their rapid transit expansion based solely on sound urban planning, i.e. following the GVRD LRSP strictly and to the letter, and fairly disperse the funding and projects evenly across the region based on need instead of doing stupid things like build subways to appease the creme de la creme, things would be much better and the GVRD would have a very extensive rapid transit system that services the needs of the many, not just the few priviledged ones. What a big relief I've experienced moving back home in Portland after my tenure in a BC company has ended. Our transit system is hailed as one of the best in the continent and Portlanders have a lot of reason to be proud. I wonder if Translink would ever come to my city and see and learn how a good transit system should be planned and built.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 08:40 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
I wonder if Translink would ever come to my city and see and learn how a good transit system should be planned and built.
Translink did come to study a city....went to London, England a while ago, seems like they didn't learn much. Probably another all expense paid "field trip" for those fat-cat bureaucrats and politicans.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 08:46 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
But I guess satisfying the demands of the creme de la creme of no elevated system is much more important than getting the best bang out of your buck
I think you've hit the nail about the power of Vancouver's elite NIMBYs. They're hindering growth, and stopping the natural densification that's supposed to occur in the supposed "inner city".

Quote:
and spreading the wealth for everyone to benefit.
Given that most of the translink's networks benefit the suburbs way more than Vancouver, I actually feel sorry for Vancouver for being ignored so long.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 10:30 AM   #293
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Since the Cambie median is going to stay green, I think Vancouver should spend some money to make it really beautiful. It would be a lot nicer with some flowers and shrubs, etc. to complement those trees.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 12:12 PM   #294
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BTW - the City of Vancouver did not require the exclusive ROW - RAVco did (in part to guarantee the airport a travel time to downtown of 25 minutes).

BTW 2 - the Oakridge area is slated to be densified. That has been planned for quite some time:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/current...idge/index.htm

THe broader plan dates from before RAV and is likely to be updated.

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/guidelines/O001.pdf

As for Vancouver being "ignored" - Vancouver hasn't necessarily wanted rapid transit - it's just necessary to traverse Vancouver to get to Richmond. When Gordon Campbell was mayor of Vancouver, he advocated connecting Regional Town Centres away from Vancouver before serving Vancouver - so as to encourgae growth away from Vancouver.

Vancouver is a bit odd in that it does not want to be a big city - in the big US city sense - it wants to be "livable". That means limiting tall/ massive buildings and preserving neighbourhood centres - but the City is increasingly becoming aware that it is losing its commercial and industrial base to residential growth (which pays less in property taxes) and to the outlying municipalities (which isn't even in the desirable town centres, but office parks).

It will be interesting to see how Vancouver develops around the RAV line.

BTW - it should be borne in mind that there is significant growth in residential mid-rise development throughout downtown Richmond. So there will be a ready population base to serve in Richmond itself.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 12:21 PM   #295
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"Fine, we'll almagate the city of Vancouver with Richmond, Burnaby and the three municipalities on the North Shore. That's what Toronto has done - If those cities that used to exist, that are now consumed by Toronto, didn't almagate, Toronto would also have this "suburban commuting" nonsense."


I really don't see the point in getting into great detail about Toronto in a Vancouver thread...but sufice to say...that is not what happened in Toronto at all. And doing what you suggest would not equate to Toronto either. If ya don't know the topic...stay away from it.

The municipality of Toronto that was created in 1953, is exactly why Toronto is the way it is now...which included the creation of a single municipal transit system to service it. And why the commuter transit system was created and run separately.








"Vancouver will be limited in it's public transit abilities if it doesn't build now!That's the problem Vancouver has from the start, unlike other Canadian cities. It's a reversible situation, not a dead end as you ignorantly dictate."


You are obviously confusing me with someone else...I didn't dictate any such thing....I'm all for public transit growth in Vancouver....including Skytrains. I'm just pointing out the limitations of it because of a suburban dominated area, and the suburban dominated transit agency that designs, builds and runs it. This makes for a less-than-ideal environment to operate a transit system like the TTC.










"Are you insane? "

Possibly






"We are talking about the same Vancouver? "

I think we are...yes








" Skytrain and Toronto's subway both serve exactly the same purpose and that is to move people around the city."


That's where you are dead wrong...the TTC subway only opporates IN the city, and it's routes, vehicles and stations are designed specifically to get people AROUND the city in a very non-commuter fashion. Skytrain is designed to move people IN and OUT of the downtown area from the suburbs in a very commuter fashion.








"Toronto has no more power to attract buissness and Condo's to a rapid transit corridor then other cities like Montreal, Vancouver or even Calgary."


And you are accusing me of being insane??? Perhaps you should take a peek at some figures before making that claim.






KGB
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 06:49 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller

As for Vancouver being "ignored" - Vancouver hasn't necessarily wanted rapid transit - it's just necessary to traverse Vancouver to get to Richmond. When Gordon Campbell was mayor of Vancouver, he advocated connecting Regional Town Centres away from Vancouver before serving Vancouver - so as to encourgae growth away from Vancouver.

Vancouver is a bit odd in that it does not want to be a big city - in the big US city sense - it wants to be "livable". That means limiting tall/ massive buildings and preserving neighbourhood centres - but the City is increasingly becoming aware that it is losing its commercial and industrial base to residential growth (which pays less in property taxes) and to the outlying municipalities (which isn't even in the desirable town centres, but office parks).

It will be interesting to see how Vancouver develops around the RAV line.

BTW - it should be borne in mind that there is significant growth in residential mid-rise development throughout downtown Richmond. So there will be a ready population base to serve in Richmond itself.
^
That is assuming every person in Richmond works in downtown Vancouver or the Cambie Corridor....wait! Isn't downtown Vancouver continuously been eating up commercial land and buildings and replacing them with residentials? Isn't Vancouver experiencing "reverse commuting" in which people live in downtown but work in the suburbs? Aren't the significant employers within Richmond, including the company that I used to work with, also located in suburban office parks? And despite the plan to densify Oakridge, will that be alone to generate enough ridership to pay for the line?

The fact that they are mid-rise development further reinforces that Richmond simply cannot grow as much. And with the amount of money spent on serving them vs the amount needed for even higher growth regions in other parts of the GVRD, it all goes down to politics, as what you previously mentioned. Besides to be even more blunt, I doubt Richmondnites would give up their Acuras and BMWs for a transit pass soon.

I don't feel symphathetic for the city of Vancouver though and nor should anybody else. According to the Translink website, the 10 year plan consist of $4 billion in transit investments in the whole GVRD. Half of that goes directly to the city of Vancouver (RAV Line and Trolley buses). But I would also like to point out that half of the GVRD population does not exactly live and work within the city boundaries of Vancouver and yet those people still have to pay full price for the program, especially if RAV does not exceed ridership expectations. WTF? If Vancouver was a core city, fine. But its not simply because the growth of the population and employment are elsewhere. And given this fact, it is only rightfully so that they invest more in that "elsewhere" or force the city of Vancouver's butt moving into making itself the central core of the region, i.e. start concentrating employment centres in areas that are served or will be served by rapid transit lines.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 07:00 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
You are obviously confusing me with someone else...I didn't dictate any such thing....I'm all for public transit growth in Vancouver....including Skytrains.
I too would want to clarify my stance. I'm also all for public transit growth in Vancouver, but especially Sky-trains...trains high up in the sky! But above all, an extensive Skytrain network that serves ALL the GVRD, not just a few lucky ones. You can only do that by wisely managing whatever little funds you have and concentrating in expanding the system region wide as oppose to putting most of your funds in one subway line whose current form is only the result of the creme de la creme lobbying (and that includes RAVCO's Larry Berg and Jane Bird, as well as that Ken Dobbel guy who are minions for the creme de la creme).
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Old July 4th, 2005, 12:31 AM   #298
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(Vancouver) Translink's New Trolley Buses

I saw on the news last night that New Flyer has deliver the first of the new trolley buses for Translink. These new trolleys are suppose to replace the aging fleet of trolley buses. One of the drivers who test drove one of the new buses says that the new buses feel very much like the regular low floor buses. He also says they accelerate very smoothly.

I snapped some photos from the newscast. The quality isn't great but at least it gives a look at the new BUSES


The New Trolley Bus, LOOKS COOL.


Back of the Bus.


Driver Seat.


Seats for the Elderly.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 12:44 AM   #299
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those look sweet. You should also post this in the Vancouver Public Transit thread
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Old July 4th, 2005, 01:11 AM   #300
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Even the new trolley buses look outdated.
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