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Old March 7th, 2009, 06:04 PM   #3361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
A lot of the times, you are thinking a little too simple with regards to ridership. We do not have high ridership levels compared to other Canadian cities but at the same time, we aren't designed like many other Canadian cities either. Within a small area like the size of Metro Vancouver, there are so many smaller urban centres compared to the same area in Toronto, for instance, where they have two or three large urban centres. People in Vancouver are moving everywhere where as people in Toronto are being funneled into the city core. In Vancouver, we need infrastructure everywhere at that is costly and takes time to build. We must work on building a basic high capacity system that reaches somehow reaches all these urban centres before we begin looking into building medium capacity public transit infrastructure (such as LRT) and lower capacity routes (such as BRT, Express Buses, etc.).
Man oh man, I've probably explained that to him 10 times now...with no avail. It's hopeless really as he simply doesn't understand nor will he ever.

Not to mention that a lot of things go in one ear and come out the other: the same questions are always asked over and over again.

Sorry, but it's quite frustrating.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 09:08 PM   #3362
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When other cities build rapid transit they include all rolling stock. Of course that is happening but it is better to have full capacity from the start as I stated to get those "choice" riders. Unless they look forward to their travel as opposed to being packed they will not switch to transit. Vancouver's ridership levels are already low so they must offer superior service or people will avoid it. I don't understand why you guys think a seat is a privalegd as opposed to an neccesary. Translink has does an excellent job of high frequency but not the comfort of the ride. I often take the Expo Line on Sat mornings and get on at King George station and by the time we leave Surrey Central there are already atleast 10 people standing. Once I missed the stop and had the misfortune of getting on at Surrey Central and I stood all the way to Metrotown. In case you missed that is was a Sat morning. I have noticed recently that there are an increasing number of people getting off at King George Station but then getting back on the train at King George. In other words they are heading back so they can get a seat. For their $5 people expect ,and rightly so, that they get a seat. Surely to god that is not expecting to much.
These MK11 are nice but my god people let's put this into perpective, that is only 1 & half subway cars. In other words TINY by any standard. All it takes is for 2 buses to arrive at the same time and the seats are gone. Even when all trains are 9 car trains by 2020 the trains will be short by the vast majority of subway systems. That's not even the capacity of 5 subway cars.

Just as a packed bus infuriates people so do packed SkyTrains. People need to make a dent in those "choice" riders and packed anything won't do it. I really can't understand why you guys think a seat is a prize as opposed to an expectation.

I have noticed that in the SkyTrain cars Translink has a post/ad to encourage people to keep the train clean and it states " it's your transit system too". What the hell "too" like I'm a part of it. It is TOTALY my and your transit system. Until Translink changes it's view that we are "part " of the system that Translink will never gain ridership levels even close to Tor/Mon. We ARE the system and Translink has the PRIVLEDGE of providing the sytem {that we pax for through our taxes and fares} it will continue to rate as a decent but second class transit system.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 12:19 AM   #3363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
When other cities build rapid transit they include all rolling stock. Of course that is happening but it is better to have full capacity from the start as I stated to get those "choice" riders.
The government isn't made of money bags. It isn't efficient nor a good use of money to be introducing a full capacity system when it is not needed. I don't know where in the world, including Dubai, would do something like this. Making a system expandable while running the amount needed for that particular time. Like many have pointed out, the Government of British Columbia (including TransLink), is a huge business itself. You obviously don't run a business and not know how to run a business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Unless they look forward to their travel as opposed to being packed they will not switch to transit. Vancouver's ridership levels are already low so they must offer superior service or people will avoid it. I don't understand why you guys think a seat is a privalegd as opposed to an neccesary.
It's necessity. English aside, I think Mr. X and I have said this already and this is probably the last time I would say it again: we have the plans, we announced the expansions, and we are working on building these expansions. There is nothing more you can do other than wait.

Again, all major transit networks in the entire world have what's called a "crunch time," peak period, or rush hour, where you must stand in order to get on the train. Generally, most people find it acceptable. I'm not sure if you ever ridden any other transit networks, but even Calgary's LRT, Toronto's Subway & RT, as well as the Montreal Metro all have this "problem," a problem in your eyes but not to most. Major cities like the London Underground, Paris Metro, Hong Kong MTR, Coppenhaggen, Tokyo, etc. all have worst standing issues than us. Do you usually get to sit down there? No. Do people really mind? Some, like seniors and children. Congestion inside the transit system is a good thing; we know we are doing something right so people are using the transit system. More demand, less supply = Expansions, Plans, and Announcements, just like the ones we've heard from TransLink and the Provincial Government

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Translink has does an excellent job of high frequency but not the comfort of the ride. I often take the Expo Line on Sat mornings and get on at King George station and by the time we leave Surrey Central there are already atleast 10 people standing. Once I missed the stop and had the misfortune of getting on at Surrey Central and I stood all the way to Metrotown. In case you missed that is was a Sat morning. I have noticed recently that there are an increasing number of people getting off at King George Station but then getting back on the train at King George. In other words they are heading back so they can get a seat. For their $5 people expect ,and rightly so, that they get a seat. Surely to god that is not expecting to much.
Well then drive your car if you don't want to pay $5 for standing your way to downtown. Maybe if you begin comparing the cost, people don't mind standing fourty minutes. I sure don't. Standing on transit is a fact of big city living. Vancouver is a growing city.

Like you said, TransLink is already doing an excellent job of high frequency. What more can they do other than buying more trains and lengthening the platforms? Hey guess what! THOSE PLANS ARE ALREADY ANNOUNCED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
These MK11 are nice but my god people let's put this into perpective, that is only 1 & half subway cars. In other words TINY by any standard. All it takes is for 2 buses to arrive at the same time and the seats are gone. Even when all trains are 9 car trains by 2020 the trains will be short by the vast majority of subway systems. That's not even the capacity of 5 subway cars.
What's your point? Do you think it's worth having to tear apart our system rebuilding so it can meet "your subway standards?" No. By the time, we lengthened our platforms and running more trains, we are adding additional capacity already. Though I don't think we will be seeing too many 6 Car MKIIs by 2020, a 6 Car MKII train, by the way, has a capacity 60% of Hong Kong's MTR Central Line system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Just as a packed bus infuriates people so do packed SkyTrains. People need to make a dent in those "choice" riders and packed anything won't do it. I really can't understand why you guys think a seat is a prize as opposed to an expectation.
Packed buses are different. Normally, buses run every ten minutes. It's much easier to be adding more buses on the road than adding SkyTrains on our tracks. We aren't seeing a seat as a prize, but we don't see it as an expectation and I don't mind standing.

What I don't understand is that you are taking the train from King George. TransLink data, posted by Mr. X on the last page, shows that there really aren't that many people traveling between Columbia and King George compared to the rest of the line. I've ridden the SkyTrain before in Surrey and I never had a problem finding a seat let a lone finding a seat at 29th Avenue.



Right now, I think you are expecting a seat to welcome you on the SkyTrain. There are times you have to stand a little bit in order to wait for people to get off so that you could sit down. This is a fact of life and it isn't hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
I have noticed that in the SkyTrain cars Translink has a post/ad to encourage people to keep the train clean and it states " it's your transit system too". What the hell "too" like I'm a part of it. It is TOTALY my and your transit system. Until Translink changes it's view that we are "part " of the system that Translink will never gain ridership levels even close to Tor/Mon. We ARE the system and Translink has the PRIVLEDGE of providing the sytem {that we pax for through our taxes and fares} it will continue to rate as a decent but second class transit system.
Not related at all. You don't seem to understand nor will you ever understand. I wish you would just open your eyes and explore everything about our infrastructure before comparing it to others.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 12:31 AM   #3364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
When other cities build rapid transit they include all rolling stock. Of course that is happening but it is better to have full capacity from the start as I stated to get those "choice" riders.
I don't know where your "other" cities are. Have you taken any rapid transit system outside of North America, especially the ones in Asia? Take some rides there and I bet you'll never complain about our Skytrain system being "crowded" - especially in the Surrey side.

If you're wondering what I'm talking about, here's a youtube video for a subway system in Tokyo.. this is quite normal under rush hour there.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 08:31 AM   #3365
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It's a hopeless case of info going in one year and going out through the other....but hey, I'll shoot into the darkness one last time...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
When other cities build rapid transit they include all rolling stock. Of course that is happening but it is better to have full capacity from the start as I stated to get those "choice" riders.
And these trains/extra capacity do not cost money to run and maintain? They may be automated, but they still cost money and over a year it adds up to additional millions....money that Translink may soon not have.

There aren't any metro systems that utilize their entire rolling stock when there's not enough demand to run those additional cars/trains.

Granted, SkyTrain is currently in need of more capacity particularly during peak hours and more capacity is on its way with 48 additional Mark II cars 2009-2010. So, I really don't get why you're continuously bitching about this....


Quote:
Unless they look forward to their travel as opposed to being packed they will not switch to transit. Vancouver's ridership levels are already low so they must offer superior service or people will avoid it.
AND we have always stated that as why we must build the UBC, Surrey, and Coquitlam extensions as SkyTrain due to efficiencies in speed, limited/reduced transfers, and reliability.....yet, you have always been opposed to this in favour of LRT. (especially with regards to the Evergreen Line)




Quote:
I don't understand why you guys think a seat is a privalegd as opposed to an neccesary.
Seems like you've only traveled on SkyTrain when it comes to rapid transit rail systems....if you're complaining about this, you will hate Hong Kong, New York, London, Shanghai, Beijing, Paris, Amsterdam, Rome........

A seat is a priveledge, it is not a necessity nor a right. However, being able to get onto a train when it arrives is a necessity...rather than having to pass this packed train for another train to arrive.



Quote:
Translink has does an excellent job of high frequency but not the comfort of the ride. I often take the Expo Line on Sat mornings and get on at King George station and by the time we leave Surrey Central there are already atleast 10 people standing. Once I missed the stop and had the misfortune of getting on at Surrey Central and I stood all the way to Metrotown. In case you missed that is was a Sat morning. I have noticed recently that there are an increasing number of people getting off at King George Station but then getting back on the train at King George. In other words they are heading back so they can get a seat. For their $5 people expect ,and rightly so, that they get a seat. Surely to god that is not expecting to much.
King George to Metrotown.....that's like 20-minutes? I've stood on transit for much longer than that, and like many others never complained. Not only in Vancouver, but in virtually every other transit system i've been on including NYC, Toronto, and Hong Kong.

Fact is: you are spoiled.


Quote:
These MK11 are nice but my god people let's put this into perpective, that is only 1 & half subway cars. In other words TINY by any standard. All it takes is for 2 buses to arrive at the same time and the seats are gone. Even when all trains are 9 car trains by 2020 the trains will be short by the vast majority of subway systems. That's not even the capacity of 5 subway cars.
Other systems have longer trains purely because their frequencies aren't as frequent. With SkyTrain, it makes up its capacity shortage with short trains by running trains very frequently.

As well, this "5 subway car" train you speak of is likely manned with a driver, and drivers are expensive. Driver systems are more expensive to operate, and so they will add more cars to that train rather than having multiple trains with increased frequency which requires more drivers.

e.g. SkyTrain - every 2-mins; driver system - every 5-minutes

SkyTrain may run much shorter trains that many other systems, but it's frequency is much more superior than most systems.




[quoteJust as a packed bus infuriates people so do packed SkyTrains. People need to make a dent in those "choice" riders and packed anything won't do it. I really can't understand why you guys think a seat is a prize as opposed to an expectation. [/quote]

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about.

What people won't stand for is being bypassed by a full train or bus....not having to stand.



Quote:
I have noticed that in the SkyTrain cars Translink has a post/ad to encourage people to keep the train clean and it states " it's your transit system too". What the hell "too" like I'm a part of it. It is TOTALY my and your transit system. Until Translink changes it's view that we are "part " of the system that Translink will never gain ridership levels even close to Tor/Mon. We ARE the system and Translink has the PRIVLEDGE of providing the sytem {that we pax for through our taxes and fares} it will continue to rate as a decent but second class transit system.
It's totally unrelated, and it's an ad for commuters to take care of their own garbage.

Just wondering, is English your first or second language? Because I pray for the latter.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 10:44 PM   #3366
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In case you guys can't read I have ALWAYS said that standing up is expected during rush hours and due to that most people accept that. Its off peak hours that count, these are "choice" riders that Translink must entice or Vancouver's transit share will not increase. Comparing Vancouver to cities five times it's size is ridiculous and especially because these are much older cities.

Listen guys I don't want this to become a bitch session {including me} and I'm very glad they are building the Evergreen especially as with flow with the MLine so trains can continue along the MLine to Broadway avoiding a transfer. All I was saying is that they should make sure there enough rolling stock to service the system well as opposed to "just enough". Translink has relativly low ridership and it must get at those people who have a choice to increase transit usuage. I know it costs money but it would be money well spent. Tough choices?..........of course but if that means shortening the Expo Line by 1km it would well save enough to nearly double the SkyTrain fleet or greatly increase it with many more buses and express highway buses for suburbanite gettin further to downtown/Broadway etc. It would help alleviate traffic on the existing lines as well.

Vancouver has a very limited highway system and none in the city. Taking the car downtown is a hassle and that should greatly enhance people taking rapid transit but it doesn't. The proof is in the pudding.........Vancouver has relitively low ridership levels and Translink must start to rethink its strategies to entice "choice" riders or transit levells will continue to rise but not enough to make a dent in the ridership level as a % of population.

Translink has done some things tht have been very good like the BLines and the articulated trolleys. Like I said however making those tough decisions like shortening the Expom extention by just one km would save $150 million and that would go an very long way to increase bus/SkyTrain fleet.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 12:12 AM   #3367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
In case you guys can't read I have ALWAYS said that standing up is expected during rush hours and due to that most people accept that. Its off peak hours that count, these are "choice" riders that Translink must entice or Vancouver's transit share will not increase.
Like I said, this is not because we aren't running enough trains, it's the layout of our city. Many North American cities only have people traveling in one direction during rush hours and that's it. Vancouver is surrounded by regional centres = many people traveling to different areas at different times of the day.

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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Comparing Vancouver to cities five times it's size is ridiculous and especially because these are much older cities.
You are the one comparing ridership levels to Toronto and Montreal.

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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Listen guys I don't want this to become a bitch session {including me} and I'm very glad they are building the Evergreen especially as with flow with the MLine so trains can continue along the MLine to Broadway avoiding a transfer. All I was saying is that they should make sure there enough rolling stock to service the system well as opposed to "just enough". Translink has relativly low ridership and it must get at those people who have a choice to increase transit usuage. I know it costs money but it would be money well spent.
I don't think you seem to understand at all. Waste of my time. See previous posts.

Forcing people to stand up during rush hours is really less than 5% of the big picture.

At the moment, we only have money for "just enough." I'm sure you aren't ignorant enough to not know our Provincial Financial situation as well as TransLink's economical situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Tough choices?..........of course but if that means shortening the Expo Line by 1km it would well save enough to nearly double the SkyTrain fleet or greatly increase it with many more buses and express highway buses for suburbanite gettin further to downtown/Broadway etc. It would help alleviate traffic on the existing lines as well.
More express highway buses for where you live perhaps?

The point is we are trying to give more people access to the rapid transit system. The South of Fraser won't be as acceptable to rapid transit if they aren't given access to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Vancouver has a very limited highway system and none in the city. Taking the car downtown is a hassle and that should greatly enhance people taking rapid transit but it doesn't. The proof is in the pudding.........Vancouver has relitively low ridership levels and Translink must start to rethink its strategies to entice "choice" riders or transit levells will continue to rise but not enough to make a dent in the ridership level as a % of population.
See posts before this.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 02:59 AM   #3368
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I used SkyTrain to go from Surrey to Metrotown. Always a wonderful experience.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 03:57 AM   #3369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
In case you guys can't read I have ALWAYS said that standing up is expected during rush hours and due to that most people accept that. Its off peak hours that count, these are "choice" riders that Translink must entice or Vancouver's transit share will not increase. Comparing Vancouver to cities five times it's size is ridiculous and especially because these are much older cities.

Listen guys I don't want this to become a bitch session {including me} and I'm very glad they are building the Evergreen especially as with flow with the MLine so trains can continue along the MLine to Broadway avoiding a transfer. All I was saying is that they should make sure there enough rolling stock to service the system well as opposed to "just enough". Translink has relativly low ridership and it must get at those people who have a choice to increase transit usuage. I know it costs money but it would be money well spent. Tough choices?..........of course but if that means shortening the Expo Line by 1km it would well save enough to nearly double the SkyTrain fleet or greatly increase it with many more buses and express highway buses for suburbanite gettin further to downtown/Broadway etc. It would help alleviate traffic on the existing lines as well.

Vancouver has a very limited highway system and none in the city. Taking the car downtown is a hassle and that should greatly enhance people taking rapid transit but it doesn't. The proof is in the pudding.........Vancouver has relitively low ridership levels and Translink must start to rethink its strategies to entice "choice" riders or transit levells will continue to rise but not enough to make a dent in the ridership level as a % of population.
Talk about oversimplification.

As expected, it is a waste of time responding to you as you will never, ever understand concepts everyone else does. It's virtually a boomerang of the same questions and explanations.

You don't know what you're talking about.



Quote:
Translink has done some things tht have been very good like the BLines and the articulated trolleys. Like I said however making those tough decisions like shortening the Expom extention by just one km would save $150 million and that would go an very long way to increase bus/SkyTrain fleet
And that's just utterly retarded...and proof that you don't know what's going on - at all.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 04:13 AM   #3370
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i dare you to catch the m line on any given night around midnight

its like a ghost town

no crowding
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Old March 16th, 2009, 07:34 PM   #3371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Current System Length (Expo Line and Millennium Line):
49.5 km

Mid-2009 System Length (Opening of the Canada Line):
68.5 km

2014 System Length (Opening of the Evergreen Line):
79.5 km
And that puts Vancouver ahead of Tornto's current Subway/RT length in terms of Kilometres - though Toronto has expansion plans too that will keep it in the lead. Vancouver will have 56 Skytrain stations too, I think?
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Old March 17th, 2009, 09:10 AM   #3372
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Its no mystery that people want comfort and so do I for $5.
I got on at King George last weekend and when the train arrived there were 11 people alreasy on it! People backtracked so they would get a seat and who can blame them.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 12:30 PM   #3373
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This must be a joke. You really are spoiled. Just come to Paris and you will see metro lines that could be overcrowded all day long. Nobody there takes a seat for granted. There is a seat for you, great. There is none, you just go along with it. Ther you are so used to it that you don't event try to seat if some are free. You just stand your ten or fifteen minutes.

You should feel happy that something can easily be done to make things better. That's not the case in many places where infrastructure are just used the most they can be.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 03:34 AM   #3374
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^ exactly

we are very spoiled here
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Old March 18th, 2009, 10:37 AM   #3375
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This is what I call crowded:



The Skytrain is very, very, very far from that and we should be happy that it's being expanded.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 11:37 AM   #3376
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I got on at King George last weekend and when the train arrived there were 11 people alreasy on it! People backtracked so they would get a seat and who can blame them.
11? Or do you mean 1100?
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Old March 18th, 2009, 07:37 PM   #3377
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Its no mystery that people want comfort and so do I for $5.
I got on at King George last weekend and when the train arrived there were 11 people alreasy on it! People backtracked so they would get a seat and who can blame them.
You are one sad, spoiled individual.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 09:53 PM   #3378
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11? Or do you mean 1100?
HE means 11 for sure.

This is Canadian Culture guys: complain and blame.
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Old March 19th, 2009, 05:54 AM   #3379
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^ rather insulting to even be complaining about that, no?
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Old March 19th, 2009, 11:44 AM   #3380
isaidso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
HE means 11 for sure.

This is Canadian Culture guys: complain and blame.
He's surely joking. I find it unfathomable that anyone could be that self absorbed and spoiled. Maybe Imelda Marcos. Even the Queen of England isn't that obscenely selfish. In her younger days, she used to disguise herself as a commoner and scoot about central London. I bet she considered herself lucky if she found something to hold on to while riding the Tube. This guy is complaining about sharing a train with 11 other people?



Perhaps this Japanese video will get him back to planet earth where the rest of us live:



I suppose 11 people in the ocean or the pool at the same time is a problem too?



Pedestrian crossing:



Typical traffic intersections in China
Xiamen:


Beijing:


Lanzhou:
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Last edited by isaidso; March 19th, 2009 at 12:52 PM.
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