daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 23rd, 2009, 11:33 PM   #3421
raccc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
And why did Vancouver degrade it self to the uses of third rail? Can't afford linear induction anymore?
Linear induction uses more energy. As well, the Canada Line cars have a suspension which makes the ride smoother. This is not possible or at least not available on SkyTrain cars.
raccc no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 24th, 2009, 08:24 PM   #3422
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
You do realize the Skytrain uses 3rd Rail, right?

All LIM powered trains use either 3rd rail, or overhead Catenary.

All righty then...
oh you're so smart... does that make you happy?
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2009, 08:29 PM   #3423
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
I thought the appearance of this trains followed the canadian trend or something because Everline trains from Bombardier looked alike.
or rather... this...

__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2009, 08:34 PM   #3424
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by raccc View Post
Linear induction uses more energy. As well, the Canada Line cars have a suspension which makes the ride smoother. This is not possible or at least not available on SkyTrain cars.
But I don't believe that shock absorption on an elevated concrete rail bed is the swinging argument for this issue...
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2009, 06:36 AM   #3425
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

The reason why conventional rail has been chosen over linear induction is because of the fact that the company who won the bid, inTransitBC won RavCO, which was by Bombardier. Bombardier would've used linear technology (aka SkyTrain).
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2009, 10:55 PM   #3426
Plumber73
I need coffee.
 
Plumber73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,442
Likes (Received): 57

I can't really make out what you are saying.

I thought the reason was not so much the technology of the trains, but the design of the line overall, including tunneling method, length of stations etc. It resulted in a higher cost, which obviously was less attractive in the end.
__________________
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan.
Plumber73 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2009, 12:25 AM   #3427
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73 View Post
I can't really make out what you are saying.

I thought the reason was not so much the technology of the trains, but the design of the line overall, including tunneling method, length of stations etc. It resulted in a higher cost, which obviously was less attractive in the end.
Basically, RAVCO put the Canada Line bid out to tender. It received quite a few bids, from Bombardier to Siemens and a bunch of other consortiums - one even consisted the Hong Kong MTR Corporation.

Three bids were shortlisted, one dropped out I believe. The remaining two were RAVxpress (Bombardier) and InTransitBC (SNC-Lavalin). Both Quebec based.

All the bids submitted their designs and costs for the line, and those two bids were shortlisted. The Siemens bid I believe was far too expensive, as they would have used overhead power wires...requiring larger tunnels. As for Bombardier, it proposed SkyTrain of course....first, it presented a bid that would have made significant cost savings to the entire project by making the Canada Line merely an extension of our SkyTrain system. This would have saved costs on rolling stock, an new OMC, operations staffing, administrative costs, etc. by being part of the SkyTrain network. The cost came down to $1.8-billion.

However, RAVCO wanted to level out the bid playing field - wanted a equal competition, despite massive potential cost savings to the taxpayer. And so, Bombardier was required to resubmit another bid that was also SkyTrain/ALRT but not integrated with our existing SkyTrain network.

However, the SNC-Lavalin bid cost came down to about $1.7-billion and they chose that bid because of it's slightly lower cost. But of course, as we know it today, the Canada Line with its overruns is now at $2.05-billion. So....yea, that's all I have to say.


...except that the Bombardier bid was rumoured to be unfavourable because of a permanent open trench down the middle of Cambie, while the SNC bid was favoured because of the proposal to bore the entire tunnel. But to cut costs and to eliminate potential construction problems due to the tight Olympic deadline, they switched to cut and cover for Cambie.
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 7th, 2009, 01:04 AM   #3428
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

New SkyTrain Features:[list][*]New Seating Layout for improved circulation[*]Route Map that lights up[*]4 CCTV cameras[*]New Vinyl Seat Covers (same as new buses)[*]Improved Flooring[*]Horizontal Handle Bars[*]Door Lights[*]Wider Articulation Joint

Also featuring a special treat in this video

New seating layout and coverings


Picturs (from the Buzzer Blog)










deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 7th, 2009, 01:09 AM   #3429
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

New SkyTrain Features:[list][*]New Seating Layout for improved circulation[*]Route Map that lights up[*]4 CCTV cameras[*]New Vinyl Seat Covers (same as new buses)[*]Improved Flooring[*]Horizontal Handle Bars[*]Door Lights[*]Wider Articulation Joint

Also featuring a special treat in this video

New seating layout and coverings


Picturs (from the Buzzer Blog)










deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2009, 06:19 AM   #3430
Allen2
Registered User
 
Allen2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 394
Likes (Received): 4

HERE ARE SOME MORE:

Here are some pics of the NEW MARK II Cars - 1300 and 1400 Series

Quote:





















http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/galle...06/9373991.php
__________________
Illusion is needed to disguise the emptiness within. - Arthur Erickson
Allen2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2009, 06:20 AM   #3431
Allen2
Registered User
 
Allen2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 394
Likes (Received): 4

Here are some pics of the NEW MARK II Cars - 1300 and 1400 Series

Quote:





















http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/galle...06/9373991.php
__________________
Illusion is needed to disguise the emptiness within. - Arthur Erickson
Allen2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2009, 08:38 PM   #3432
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

As much as I do not want to see ART(ICTS) technology in Toronto ever again, Nice trains!
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2009, 08:26 AM   #3433
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,404
Likes (Received): 859

Ya they are nice looking. Its unfortunate that you guys still have those horrid MK1s.
The MK11 are completely different. If you didn't know better you would honestly not think they were the same tech.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2009, 10:27 AM   #3434
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31



let's not pretend like you guys don't have them anymore. Be it ours is alot more crappier than yours, that much I'll admit.

We're just not as emotionally attached to it as you guys are. Our connections are with our street cars.
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2009, 03:17 PM   #3435
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Ya they are nice looking. Its unfortunate that you guys still have those horrid MK1s.
The MK11 are completely different. If you didn't know better you would honestly not think they were the same tech.
I have ridden the Skytrain Mark II's, and the JFK Airtrain model
It has nothing to do with the trains. It's the technology. We have no need for it, and it has no place in Toronto, except maybe as a new airport circulator.
We'd much prefer LRT, over some proprietary tech.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2009, 07:35 PM   #3436
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Vancouver looked at light rail as an option for the future Evergreen/Coquitlam line. The following is from the "Business Case" document regarding the selection of Bombardier's ALRT (Skytrain) system for the future line.

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Docu...kgrounder.ashx

BACKGROUNDER

BUSINESS CASE RELEASED:
ALRT TECHNOLOGY ON EVERGREEN LINE

Benefits of ALRT for Evergreen Line:

The business case recommends ALRT for the Evergreen Line because it:
· will accommodate two and a half times the ridership of LRT (2021), ensuring it will meet current and future demand and support the Provincial Transit Plan goal of doubling ridership by 2020;
· will enable faster travel time – almost half the time from Coquitlam Town Centre to Lougheed Town Centre (12.6 minutes versus 23.6 minutes for LRT on the Northwest route, for example);
· has more frequent schedules – every three minutes versus five minutes for LRT;
· will easily integrate with the current rapid transit system, notably the Millennium Line.

Route Description
· Northwest Route from Lougheed Station, elevated on North Road to Burquitlam, then tunnelled to Port Moody where it runs at-grade parallel to the Canadian Pacific Rail right-of-way to Coquitlam West Coast Express Station, then elevated on Pinetree terminating near Douglas College in Coquitlam.
· Southeast Route from Lougheed Station, elevated on the south/east side of Lougheed Highway to Coquitlam West Coast Express Station, continuing north on Pinetree terminating near Douglas College in Coquitlam.


Capital and Operating Costs (2007 dollars)

Capital Costs NW CORRIDOR
ALRT $1.4 billion
LRT $1.25 billion

Capital Costs SE CORRIDOR
ALRT $1.4 billion
LRT $1.1 billion

Annual Operation & Maintenance Costs NW CORRIDOR
ALRT $10.2 million
LRT $15.3 million

Annual Operation & Maintenance Costs SE CORRIDOR
ALRT $10.8 million
LRT $15.1 million

Operating Cost per Passenger (at 2021) NW CORRIDOR
ALRT $0.45
LRT $1.70

Operating Cost per Passenger (at 2021) SE CORRIDOR
ALRT $0.48
LRT $1.49


Summary of Alternative Frequency, Capacity and Operating Speed

Frequency: time between trains (minutes)
ALRT 3.0
LRT 5.0

Maximum Operating Speed (km/hr)
ALRT 80
LRT 60

Peak Hour Capacity (2021)
ALRT 10,400
LRT 4,080


Summary of Route and Technology Characteristics

Total Distance (kilometres) NW CORRIDOR
ALRT 10.9
LRT 11.2

Total Distance (kilometres) SE CORRIDOR
ALRT 12.6
LRT 12.6

Total Travel Time (minutes) NW CORRIDOR
ALRT 12.6
LRT 23.6

Total Travel Time (minutes) SE CORRIDOR
ALRT 14.8
LRT 17.7

Annual Riders (000’s – 2021) NW CORRIDOR
ALRT 22,900
LRT 9,000

Annual Riders (000’s – 2021) SE CORRIDOR
ALRT 22,500
LRT 10,300
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2009, 06:56 PM   #3437
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I have ridden the Skytrain Mark II's, and the JFK Airtrain model
It has nothing to do with the trains. It's the technology. We have no need for it, and it has no place in Toronto, except maybe as a new airport circulator.
We'd much prefer LRT, over some proprietary tech.
Well, in hindsight we shouldn't have chosen something that was proprietary. But now that we've built such a large system with it, it only makes sense to extend it to complete the regional network.
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2009, 11:40 PM   #3438
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Well, in hindsight we shouldn't have chosen something that was proprietary. But now that we've built such a large system with it, it only makes sense to extend it to complete the regional network.
Didn't BC Transit take over the initial Epxo line project, because UTDC was doing such a poor job building it at the time?

Yeah, I was surprised Translink was even looking at LRT. Seems they had to "tweak" the Business case to make a case to change the technology to ART. Should have just saved money rather than making up a business case.

The only way ART will be built in Toronto is if Metrolinx interferes to appease Bombardier. But the Business Cases that Metrolinx put out so far is favouring LRT.

Last edited by JustinB; May 11th, 2009 at 12:00 AM.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2009, 07:39 AM   #3439
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,404
Likes (Received): 859

"tweaked" is being very generous. If you compare systems as both rapid transit then you compare them with the same number of station to calculate the time differences between them which Translink didn't.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 12th, 2009, 05:14 PM   #3440
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

That's true.

Same with the headways.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
british columbia, canada, vancouver

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium