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Old May 20th, 2009, 04:08 PM   #3481
JustinB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
JustinB, if I were you I wouldn't give my opinion on the project unless I've visited the corridor myself (or even better, if i live there)...not merely look at maps, reports, and pictures.
I can give an opinion if I want to.

I am not going to just sit and take your word for it. I have seen what happens when you neglect local travel along a corridor. In Toronto, we have built subways that seem to focus on regional travel, and the ridership has been really low, for such a huge investment.

I am not passing myself as an expert, but I know that the station spacings you describe is not going to help the corridor, and focusing solely on regional travel will most likely hurt ridership.
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Old May 20th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #3482
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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
LRT can be built on a dedicate ROW, with frequencies as great as any automated metro system.
So you say it is possible to run an light rail trains 108 or 90 seconds apart, with at-grade crossings of major streets every 800~1000m and side street every 120m without causing traffic nightmare in the area?

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Let's face reality here. You just built a potentially 3 Billion transit line. Do you honestly think Translink is going to run frequent trolley service to parallel it? It's not going to happen. It's sounds good on paper, but will it happen? Here in Toronto, we had frequent bus service, until the Sheppard Line opened. When the line opened, the frequency was reduced to 20 minutes all day.
They have to... there are some north-south trolley routes that have to use Broadway to get to downtown. If they don't run it there, the next available trolley wire will be 32 blocks in the south. And also, the street that parallel to Canada Line would have more frequent service than every 20 minutes. North of Broadway will be served by route #17; between Broadway and Marine will be served by #15 (and in some part, #33); and from Bridgeport and southward, it will be parallel to #403, #410, etc. All of these routes (except the #33) are frequent transit routes, which means a bus every 15 minutes or better all the time.

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I am not passing myself as an expert, but I know that the station spacings you describe is not going to help the corridor, and focusing solely on regional travel will most likely hurt ridership.
I don't see any difference in TTC's spacing of subway station on Bloor, Young, University, and Shepphard - Stations at major intersections.. except the the blocks in Broadway is slightly bigger. Is the TTC subway solely for regional travel too?

Last edited by nname; May 20th, 2009 at 10:01 PM.
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Old May 20th, 2009, 10:08 PM   #3483
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Once you weight the options, you start to realize that SkyTrain along this corridor actually serves local as well as regional traffic at the same time. A true regional system would have 1500-2000m station spacing, like Skytrain has along the Sheppard-like streets of Lougheed and King George Highway.

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I can give an opinion if I want to.
Completely agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB
In Toronto, we have built subways that seem to focus on regional travel, and the ridership has been really low, for such a huge investment.
Station spacing for a lot of Toronto's subway is 600-800m. As a result, the subway is actually quite slow and can't compete with the car, especially given that road transport is so fast in Toronto. But that's a different topic. I think you're speaking of the Sheppard Line, right? Yes, I agree, that line could've been LRT, given its location, the width of the street, the speed of car traffic in the area, and the cost for the relative low density of the area.

The Millennium line could've been built as LRT along Lougheed Highway as well, but it wasn't and in retrospect, it was close to an edge case, given the timing of the development that has occured around these stations since and its importance as a regional/local system.

The broadway corridor, however, is the Queen Street of Vancouver, or even the Yonge st. Imagine if there were no Bloor Subway and they were going to build it down Queen instead. Few would suggest LRT.

Quote:
It's going to be longer than 3-4 minutes walking, not to mention the time to actually ascend/descend AND to wait for a train. Compared to 3-4 extra minutes sitting on your ass on a train. Huge difference. You are not going to attract walkers, and locals to stations that are far apart.
Remember, though, that headways on Vancouver's system is 90 seconds - 5 minutes (max). This corridor would likely see very short wait times, making wait time neglibible. Seriously, when locals see trains entering the station they don't even run to catch it, knowing the next one will be here in another minute or so. That 3-4 minutes was worst case scenario. In addition, anyone transferring from almost all North South Bus lines will have a short walk down a ramp to the station (assuming the line is built under 10th ave, due to the geography of the area), which looks to be about 80-100m... or the length of a SkyTrain platform... or half a conventional subway platform's length.

Perhaps it's an extra 3-4 minutes on an LRT... but unless it's in its own ROW, there will also be longer wait times. If it's in its own ROW, it would go underground, and we're back to square one.

Quote:
LRT can be built on a dedicate ROW, with frequencies as great as any automated metro system. It's already been proven. if you're crazy enough to take transit over long distances on a metro, a transfer probably will not kill you. Again. Focus should be on local travel first, regional second.
You are absolutely right. On this corridor, a dedicated LRT ROW would be underground for more than half the route. If it goes underground, station spacing would be further apart (because of cost). There would be some cost savings, perhaps on the West side of the line, but as long as SkyTrain is elevated along the west end of the corridor, the cost savings are negligible.

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It's not going to happen. It's sounds good on paper, but will it happen? Here in Toronto, we had frequent bus service, until the Sheppard Line opened. When the line opened, the frequency was reduced to 20 minutes all day.
Consider what currently exists.
The 99 B-Line currently serves in the same capacity that an LRT would run, stopping only at major locations. The local #9 still runs. This isn't on the edge of town, like the Sheppard Line is, it's right in the core. Not only does the #9 run, but the 16, 17 and 50 run along parts of Broadway as well.

Quote:
Which would speed up the bus, and negate the need for such a costly investment.
Anyway, you've responded to my statements but not to the actual questions:
  • What would you consider infrequent bus service?
  • Where would you propose putting these extra [LRT] stops?
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Old May 20th, 2009, 10:31 PM   #3484
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Source: City of Vancouver

Given that this study was probably slightly weighted against LRT, one or two of those LRT stops between Cambie and Granville would definitely be eliminated.


Source: City of Vancouver



Btw, here's a transit map of the area, showing bus routes, the 99 B-Line (IN GREEN) and the proposed stops (X marks the spot) for a UBC Skytrain line (West of Arbutus are best guesses)

The only possible hole that I see is between Granville and Arbutus (at Burrard).

Looking at this map, I think that a stop where the B-Line stops at Willow (in front of VGH) and a stop around Alder would be a good idea. All buses that go down Oak will turn left or right on Broadway anyhow, so they'd connect with one of these two stations. This would give 500m station spacing (similar to Granville - Burrard downtown) and would directly serve the hospital. Saying that, to save on costs, it's likely just Oak St. Station would serve both areas.

Last edited by bluemeansgo; May 20th, 2009 at 10:41 PM.
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Old May 21st, 2009, 02:06 AM   #3485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Let's face reality here. You just built a potentially 3 Billion transit line. Do you honestly think Translink is going to run frequent trolley service to parallel it? It's not going to happen. It's sounds good on paper, but will it happen? Here in Toronto, we had frequent bus service, until the Sheppard Line opened. When the line opened, the frequency was reduced to 20 minutes all day.
Buses will be less frequent but not by too much. The 9 trolley will still be part of the Frequent Transit Network and buses will be at least every 10 minutes (by the minimum, more during peek hours).

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Which would speed up the bus, and negate the need for such a costly investment.
Been there, done that. If you go look at the results made by Bus-Only lanes during morning peek hours, it's only a savings of two to four minutes. Buses are overcrowded as it stands today, buses already come one after another during peek hours, and we need a substantial change now.

As concluded by the City of Vancouver in 1999-2000, both LRT and BRT will not be long term options. By 2015, according to the backgrounder, BRT must be replaced with something else. That was using projections, but it's 2009 and it's already overcrowded. LRT won't be a long lasting option. SkyTrain is the answer.

You've been mentioning station spacing again and again and it's been answered again and again. LRT does not have that many more stations than SkyTrain.
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Old May 21st, 2009, 03:21 AM   #3486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post

Source: City of Vancouver

Given that this study was probably slightly weighted against LRT, one or two of those LRT stops between Cambie and Granville would definitely be eliminated.


Source: City of Vancouver



Btw, here's a transit map of the area, showing bus routes, the 99 B-Line (IN GREEN) and the proposed stops (X marks the spot) for a UBC Skytrain line (West of Arbutus are best guesses)

The only possible hole that I see is between Granville and Arbutus (at Burrard).

Looking at this map, I think that a stop where the B-Line stops at Willow (in front of VGH) and a stop around Alder would be a good idea. All buses that go down Oak will turn left or right on Broadway anyhow, so they'd connect with one of these two stations. This would give 500m station spacing (similar to Granville - Burrard downtown) and would directly serve the hospital. Saying that, to save on costs, it's likely just Oak St. Station would serve both areas.
after Alma i think only one would be needed before UBC
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Old May 21st, 2009, 05:01 AM   #3487
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A frequent streetcar/LRT in its own ROW is good enough for Broadway, for a hell of a lot less money than a tunnelled Skytrain. I say NO to wasted tax dollars. I don't understand why anyone would argue for spending billions on a project like that just to avoid a connection between systems. People do it all over the world and it works just fine. The Broadway corridor is a local corridor and just because someone from Surrey or elsewhere has a doctors appointment once in a while there, we are going to spend Billions more than a LRT so they don't get inconvenienced? Same argument for UBC, thousands take the 99 bus from Commercial, isn't that a transfer?
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Old May 21st, 2009, 05:16 AM   #3488
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after Alma i think only one would be needed before UBC
Disagreed. I believe Sasamat is needed or else there will be too many gaps not to mention that would greatly benefit the community and in particular the businesses.

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A frequent streetcar/LRT in its own ROW is good enough for Broadway, for a hell of a lot less money than a tunnelled Skytrain. I say NO to wasted tax dollars. I don't understand why anyone would argue for spending billions on a project like that just to avoid a connection between systems. People do it all over the world and it works just fine. The Broadway corridor is a local corridor and just because someone from Surrey or elsewhere has a doctors appointment once in a while there, we are going to spend Billions more than a LRT so they don't get inconvenienced? Same argument for UBC, thousands take the 99 bus from Commercial, isn't that a transfer?
If it's just a simple transfer, it wouldn't be a problem.

Do you guys actually know how much LRT would cost on Broadway? It's not as low as people think.
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Old May 21st, 2009, 05:56 AM   #3489
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Do you guys actually know how much LRT would cost on Broadway? It's not as low as people think.
The trains alone would cost at least half a billion.
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Old May 21st, 2009, 09:24 AM   #3490
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The trains alone would cost at least half a billion.
All trains cost at least half a billion! How much is one articulated trolley bus cost?
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Old May 21st, 2009, 09:30 AM   #3491
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Disagreed. I believe Sasamat is needed or else there will be too many gaps not to mention that would greatly benefit the community and in particular the businesses.



If it's just a simple transfer, it wouldn't be a problem.

Why would it not be a simple transfer?

Do you guys actually know how much LRT would cost on Broadway? It's not as low as people think.
Less than a tunnelled Skytrain! Streetcars/LRT are cheaper, look better and are more people friendly, works quite well actually. Very successful in Toronto, Calgary, Portland, San Fransisco, San Diego, Denver and countless cities in Europe. And yes, you have to transfer! Big deal, can you walk a few meters?
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Old May 21st, 2009, 10:46 AM   #3492
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All trains cost at least half a billion! How much is one articulated trolley bus cost?
Actually, skytrain will be cheaper in this category because its faster = require less cars to maintain the headway = less car to buy. Based on my calculation, to get 12000pphd, LRT would need 23x3-car trains/hr + spares = 131 cars (524mil), and skytrain would need 25x4 car trains/hr + spares = 114 cars (390mil).

Each articulated trolley would be at around 1.2~1.3 million range.

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Originally Posted by p604 View Post
Less than a tunnelled Skytrain! Streetcars/LRT are cheaper, look better and are more people friendly, works quite well actually. Very successful in Toronto, Calgary, Portland, San Fransisco, San Diego, Denver and countless cities in Europe. And yes, you have to transfer! Big deal, can you walk a few meters?
Toronto: The busiest streetcar line have about the same ridership as the 99 B-Line, and the route with the highest cost recovery during weekday is just 61%. I can hardly call that successful.

Calgary: Yes, it is successful, but does Broadway have those ROW like those highway median in Calgary? Does Broadway allow train to travel up to max speed of 80km/h? Building a LRT on Broadway would be very much similar to the LRT in downtown Calgary, which they are now planning to put it underground at a cost of $250mil/km.

Portland: Max LRT is much longer than Skytrain system, but the ridership is less than one half.. well, compare it to the 99 B-Line, which have less than 1/5 of the length but almost half of the ridership. I would say 99 B-Line is more successful.

San Fransisco, San Diego, Denver: The ridership per km are all much much lower than the one for 99 B-Line. In fact, of all the LRT system in United States, only Boston green line yield higher rider per km than 99. I'm curious of what's the ridership in the subway portion of SF's muni metro, as it might be significant higher than the at-grade portion. But again, I don't think that underground portion would be much cheaper to construct than Skytrain.
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Old May 21st, 2009, 05:31 PM   #3493
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Once you weight the options, you start to realize that SkyTrain along this corridor actually serves local as well as regional traffic at the same time. A true regional system would have 1500-2000m station spacing, like Skytrain has along the Sheppard-like streets of Lougheed and King George Highway.
Somehow, this got turned into an LRT/Skytrain debate. I stated at the beginning at this conversation, that I am not concerned about the choice of tech. What's more important is serving the local community, and Mr. X's proposal of 1km -1.5km just to make it easier for long distance travellers is not the way to go, in my opinion. If you can make make reasonable station spacing (850m-1000m, or what is required for the community), then I have no problem.

Quote:
Station spacing for a lot of Toronto's subway is 600-800m. As a result, the subway is actually quite slow and can't compete with the car, especially given that road transport is so fast in Toronto. But that's a different topic. I think you're speaking of the Sheppard Line, right? Yes, I agree, that line could've been LRT, given its location, the width of the street, the speed of car traffic in the area, and the cost for the relative low density of the area.
Incorrect. I am a frequent daily user of the the subway here, and the 600m station spacing is only for the downtown stations south of Bloor, and that is only a few stations anyways. Road Transport along the subway routes, with exception of Sheppard, and North of Eglinton, is pretty slow, especially during peak hours. The congestion North of Eglinton is still pretty severe, and slow going.
The recent funding announcement for the Sheppard East LRT line pretty much confirms the colossal waste of money that is the Sheppard Line.

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The broadway corridor, however, is the Queen Street of Vancouver, or even the Yonge st. Imagine if there were no Bloor Subway and they were going to build it down Queen instead. Few would suggest LRT.
Well.. To correct you, the original plan for Queen St. WAS a streetcar subway, and that was the city's plan. The TTC insisted on a Bloor Subway, and because the TTC was profitable at the time. they were able to build the Bloor-Danforth themselves without the help of the City.
If you say Broadway is the Queen St of Vancouver, then it would be a mistake to build a Skytrain subway along the corridor. I think you just validated my point. The beauty of Queen is the walkability of the corridor, and the easy access to the Queen Streetcar. It's slow, and due to the TTC's pighead operation policies, sadly unreliable. But it's heavily used, and an attractive corridor to live, and shop. And that is due to the availabilty of transit nearby. If a subway was built, with wide station spacings, I have no doubt the corridor would not be as vibrant as it is today.
How can you attract riders to the corridor, if all they see is tunnel walls, and the gap between stations is huge?

Quote:
Remember, though, that headways on Vancouver's system is 90 seconds - 5 minutes (max). This corridor would likely see very short wait times, making wait time neglibible. Seriously, when locals see trains entering the station they don't even run to catch it, knowing the next one will be here in another minute or so. That 3-4 minutes was worst case scenario. In addition, anyone transferring from almost all North South Bus lines will have a short walk down a ramp to the station (assuming the line is built under 10th ave, due to the geography of the area), which looks to be about 80-100m... or the length of a SkyTrain platform... or half a conventional subway platform's length.
CAPABLE of 90 seconds. From what I have read, the skytrain was used to it's full potential during the expo86. Translink's site shows headways of 2 minutes on the COMBINED portion. Not the single line portions of the system.
Let's be real. Do you really think that the Skytrain will run at 90 seconds along Broadway? It's not likely, especially if that headway is not utilized on the single line portions. Not to mention, that Translink may not even buy enough vehicles to run 90 seconds along the extension. I have read that the line will most likely be tunneled, and not cut and cover. It's not going to be shallow, or a short walk down. Chances are, you are going to have mezzanies, before you reach track level.


Quote:
You are absolutely right. On this corridor, a dedicated LRT ROW would be underground for more than half the route. If it goes underground, station spacing would be further apart (because of cost). There would be some cost savings, perhaps on the West side of the line, but as long as SkyTrain is elevated along the west end of the corridor, the cost savings are negligible.
Are you absolutely sure about that? Or just assuming?

Quote:
[*]What would you consider infrequent bus service?
20 minutes or greater during rush hour. Which is possible, if an tunneled transit line is built. The frequencies may be excellent now, but that change.

Quote:
Where would you propose putting these extra [LRT] stops?
Where it would best serve the local community. The problem is that you, and a few others would rather sacrifice far greater number of riders to placate long distance travellers, whose trip will most likely end at UBC, and not anywhere along the corridor.
Focusing solely on speed will not get drivers out of their cars. Drivers expect ease of use, accessibility, and ammenities. If you leave those out, and assume it is only speed that matters, you run the risk of building a gold plated system, that will not attract drivers.

Last edited by JustinB; May 21st, 2009 at 08:31 PM.
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Old May 21st, 2009, 11:31 PM   #3494
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If you can make make reasonable station spacing (850m-1000m, or what is required for the community), then I have no problem.
The average station spacing for central Broadway (VCC to Macdonald) on the proposed route is 980m.

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
But it's heavily used, and an attractive corridor to live, and shop. And that is due to the availabilty of transit nearby.
Just a note, the average weekday ridership on the 501 is less than the weekday ridership of the 99 B-Line (which the skytrain/LRT is replacing).

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CAPABLE of 90 seconds. From what I have read, the skytrain was used to it's full potential during the expo86. Translink's site shows headways of 2 minutes on the COMBINED portion. Not the single line portions of the system.
The combined portion run for almost the entire length of the Expo line - except for last 4 stations. The current headway is 96s between Waterfront and Broadway (5 stations), 108s between Broadway to Columbia (10 stations), 162s between Columbia and King George (4 stations).

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Let's be real. Do you really think that the Skytrain will run at 90 seconds along Broadway? It's not likely, especially if that headway is not utilized on the single line portions.
The headway on the Millennium line would be 180s after Evergreen Line opens in 2014. So if the Broadway extension opens, the headway would likely to be somewhere close to 108s. Expo line, by that time, would most likely to run at 90s according to the plan.

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Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Not to mention, that Translink may not even buy enough vehicles to run 90 seconds along the extension.
I think the cost for Broadway extension would include the vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I have read that the line will most likely be tunneled, and not cut and cover. It's not going to be shallow, or a short walk down. Chances are, you are going to have mezzanies, before you reach track level.
The plan is to tunnel under 10th avenue, which is higher than Broadway. Meaning that you just have to walk south, not down, to access the train.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 03:16 AM   #3495
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Less than a tunnelled Skytrain! Streetcars/LRT are cheaper, look better and are more people friendly, works quite well actually. Very successful in Toronto, Calgary, Portland, San Fransisco, San Diego, Denver and countless cities in Europe. And yes, you have to transfer! Big deal, can you walk a few meters?
I think we already answered all this and I don't feel like repeating ourselves a gagillion times. Go scroll back to the past three pages to see why it's not just a damn transfer.

JustinB, we understand your point, and we already told you. I hope nname's post would be THE LAST of it.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 05:42 AM   #3496
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after Alma i think only one would be needed before UBC
You do realize that the bus ridership at Sasamat station is higher than even some Expo and Millennium SkyTrain stations.


Not wanting to post redundantly, simply said the corridor is one of regional importance and requires a regional solution - and that's SkyTrain with the proposed stops. If you traveled down the corridor yourself, which goes back to my previous comment on why you're posting on something you know so little about (besides maps and reports), you'd know that any more stops along the corridor would be completely silly and would be a waste of money. The purpose of the extension is to serve both local and regional commuters, just like what the 99 B-Line does and what the new SkyTrain line would mirror. Frequent (10-15-min) trolley service would be maintained along the corridor - it's a necessity.

Even with the Canada Line, a local bus service is being maintained on Cambie with a bus every 10-15 mins.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 04:45 PM   #3497
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Old May 25th, 2009, 05:17 AM   #3498
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Disagreed. I believe Sasamat is needed or else there will be too many gaps not to mention that would greatly benefit the community and in particular the businesses.

and that would be the "one" station needed between UBC and Alma as I said more than that between UBC and alma is not needed
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Old May 25th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #3499
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You do realize that the bus ridership at Sasamat station is higher than even some Expo and Millennium SkyTrain stations.
and if people paid attention to what i wrote i said i think only one station is needed between alma and UBC not zero i never said zero stations are needed i said ONE

somewhere along the little retail strip along 10th - where the safeway etc is would be good and than the next one at UBC possibly two for UBC however they route it i guess
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Old May 25th, 2009, 05:31 AM   #3500
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anyway if there was one between Sasamat and UBC is this how it will go??

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