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Old September 20th, 2009, 11:52 PM   #3741
Plumber73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
That's a pretty steep price to pay for just having a cleaner system with smiling attendees...I'm definitely impressed with the customer service and cleanliness, but if I had to choose between that and a long-lasting system I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat.


The limitations of the Canada Line will haunt us down the road.
Actually, the choice would have been... what we have now, or no system at all.
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Old September 21st, 2009, 04:45 AM   #3742
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i don't know why you'd defend the p3 system. it's hard not to see both ravco and the contractor both being disingenuous. many of the terms were changed unilaterally and without proper disclosure.

the contractor just wanted to maximize their profits. and ravco was credulous/inept/corrupt enough to allow a compromised system
Because P3 systems CAN work. There is a reason why Hong Kong's MTR system is known around in the world and a reason why London DLR is so successful. Of course, it's success is not entirely based on the fact that it is a P3 system, but has a lot ot do with it.

Of course it's the company's best interest to pay less and to get the most out of something. That's just basic economics: anyone would want to do such a thing. Here we have one bid, the winning bid, that builds 40 metre platforms wheras RavXpress builds SkyTrain standard 80 metre platforms. If we went with RavXpress, we wouldn't be discussing about the problems of P3 systems would we...

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that $2 billion didn't get you the best. the contractor got the best outcome for its own financial interests. the government got some momentary flak, but has survived. the various taxpayers and commuters got a system with an artificially low capacity.
Well you tell me what we could've built with $2 billion. Like Plumber73 says, either we either have the system now, or we will never have it (at least, not until a lot later).
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Old September 21st, 2009, 07:50 AM   #3743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73 View Post
Actually, the choice would have been... what we have now, or no system at all.
I would be willing to second at building the system later if it meant a much better design while Evergreen and/or maybe even Broadway West were built during the last few years. Among many problems, the whole thing was rushed for 2010.



As for the P3, we should have either gone with a small P3 agreement, like the one i mentioned in the previous post, or permanent P3 deal where the Canada Line is privately operated forever (instead of the 35-year agreement) so the private operator would give a damn about the system in the long-term: this is fundamental to the success of Hong Kong's MTR.
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Old September 21st, 2009, 08:02 AM   #3744
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deasine, you're like a one-string banjo.

i never said public/private partnerships were inherently bad. others have worked. unfortunately the canada line p3 suffered from ineptitude and/or mismanagement.

i've worked with, and have become friends with a number of the planners in government. they have all sorts of stories about the political prostitutes/idiots who end up giving sweetheart deals to various contractors, or are too dumb to notice they're being hustled.

despite many objections, ravco's specifications were strangely bare. 15k/hour. why would ANY reasonably competent government allow a contractor to dictate almost every other aspect of design and construction for such a huge project? that's an invitation to lowball.

the stations themselves comprise only a tiny part of the total cost. but unfortunately the minimal platform lengths have artificially limited the capacity, and it's a problem the canada line will face very soon, and it's very expensive to correct.

but, if you're going to say that it's the best two billion ever spent, you might as well throw away every dissenting argument out there.
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Old September 21st, 2009, 08:33 AM   #3745
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^ well, to be fair longer platforms would have cost more...maybe $500-million for 40-metre platforms today and expandable to 80-metres in the future....and it mainly has to do with the problem of the tunnel in Vancouver as it goes up and down a hill. Longer platforms would require a bored tunnel (using at least 3 more tunnel boring machines) on Cambie for a deeper tunnel which will have slope grades that allow for longer station platforms.

I would be fine with today's platform lengths knowing they can be extended to 80-metres with ease in the future. The stations cost a relatively small fraction of the entire project, it's the rail infrastructure that costs the most...same goes with aesthetics. If you will, it's like ordering a new car but refusing to pay for the installation of backseats, the backdoors, the back side windows, rear window, and the trunk door, AND refusing to pay for the carpet, the fabric patting on the car ceiling, etc.


I absolutely agree with you on RAVCO lowballing the design requirements and standards. But when it comes to the $2.05-billion, we did what we could with it...a better design would have required more money - not billions, but hundreds of millions (which isn't much overall when it results in a much, much, much better design with a higher capacity).


It's a [email protected]: all parties (Liberals, RAVCO, InTransitBC, Translink) ****ed up.
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Last edited by mr.x; September 21st, 2009 at 08:38 AM.
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Old September 21st, 2009, 09:29 AM   #3746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
deasine, you're like a one-string banjo.

i never said public/private partnerships were inherently bad. others have worked. unfortunately the canada line p3 suffered from ineptitude and/or mismanagement.
Well you were referring to P3 systems in general. I think the P3 model on the Canada Line works, though there are a few points where I don't agree. But that's the fault of RAVCO. You can't blame InTransitBC, they weren't the ones that set the requirements. They followed RAVCO's requirements and if I was in that position, I would do the same. It is the responsibility of RAVCO to set higher specifications.

Platform lengths is only one component of the cost. If we wanted something that was expandable to something much longer, say 80 metres, then the entire construction design of the project must be changed. Look at Broadway-City Hall: the steep slopes of the tunnels prevent the platforms from being extended longer. If you want something that can extend longer, then you are going to have to bury the stations deeper into the ground: that costs a lot more money.

Looking at it now, I'm fine with the service on the Canada Line. The trains are a little more crowded during rush hours, especially the ones heading out to Richmond, but this could be solved with more trains. Unfortunately, we didn't begin with enough in the first place. But that again is a specification by RAVCO.
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Old September 21st, 2009, 07:56 PM   #3747
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dude. i said THIS p3 system. 'the' was used in reference to the canada line setup, not all public private partnerships. we all know others have worked.

and if you want to talk about privatization in such a cheery way, we might as well touch upon that topic.

privatization of a natural monopoly (such as a utility or a transit line) only works when it's heavily regulated, and the regulator is motivated by the best interests of the public. otherwise, the privately run monopoly corporation will want to cut all superfluous costs in its goal to maximize its profit. we've seen some of that with THIS particular p3.

99% of us will be around when the canada line reaches its capacity. i wonder how cheerful you'll be when its commuters will be standing in line like amusement ride goers.
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Old September 21st, 2009, 11:37 PM   #3748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
dude. i said THIS p3 system. 'the' was used in reference to the canada line setup, not all public private partnerships. we all know others have worked.

and if you want to talk about privatization in such a cheery way, we might as well touch upon that topic.

privatization of a natural monopoly (such as a utility or a transit line) only works when it's heavily regulated, and the regulator is motivated by the best interests of the public. otherwise, the privately run monopoly corporation will want to cut all superfluous costs in its goal to maximize its profit. we've seen some of that with THIS particular p3.

99% of us will be around when the canada line reaches its capacity. i wonder how cheerful you'll be when its commuters will be standing in line like amusement ride goers.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 06:54 AM   #3749
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Quote:
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dude. i said THIS p3 system. 'the' was used in reference to the canada line setup, not all public private partnerships. we all know others have worked.
I've only stated how other models work and I do agree that P3 transit does not always work out as planned. Our P3 model used on the Canada Line is, to some extent, quite similar to the model used in London's DLR; the people who worked out the P3 model had extensive knowledge of the DLR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
privatization of a natural monopoly (such as a utility or a transit line) only works when it's heavily regulated, and the regulator is motivated by the best interests of the public. otherwise, the privately run monopoly corporation will want to cut all superfluous costs in its goal to maximize its profit. we've seen some of that with THIS particular p3.
Like I said earlier, I don't think our P3 model is perfect: I'm just saying P3 models can work. If you want to point the fingers, you can point it at RAVCO for not having these heavy regulations. It's not the fault of the private company when they've followed all the rules.

Under the agreement, bus service can be reintroduced over the Fraser, should it be necessary, once the 100 000 daily passenger figure is reached. From what I know, inTransitBC doesn't loose anything since they are only in charge of operating and providing the service. TransLink, on the other hand, wants to be able to meet that figure so that the line doesn't have to be subsidized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
99% of us will be around when the canada line reaches its capacity. i wonder how cheerful you'll be when its commuters will be standing in line like amusement ride goers.
I can understand it when people say that the Canada Line isn't built for the long term future: it's true, we don't have much room to expand. But like I've stated many times: that's not the responsibility of the private company to provide, but rather, RAVCO.

There's no use in crying over spilled milk: what's done is done and we need to work with what we have right now. There's still a lot of room to work with.
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 11:59 AM   #3750
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deasine, do you even read what others have written?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 01:31 AM   #3751
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Question: Why is there still a bis that runs on Cambie!?!?!?!
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 01:56 AM   #3752
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Question: Why is there still a bis that runs on Cambie!?!?!?!
For the old grannies that can't walk as far as the nearest station.

And the fact that there are no stops at 16th, 33rd and 57th Avenues.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 05:24 AM   #3753
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Quote:
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deasine, do you even read what others have written?
I have, but clearly you aren't understanding my point. My point from the beginning was RAVCO should be the to blame for most of the Canada Line mishaps. I've followed the Canada Line project from the beginning, heck, I work on the line (mind you, not necessarily for ProTransBC or InTransitBC) and I've been lucky enough to know a few insider secrets. I've been on this forum, and on SSP, long enough to know the positions of different members.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:19 PM   #3754
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you think..

our skytrain is crowded, how about this commute!
image hosted on flickr
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Old September 24th, 2009, 06:08 AM   #3755
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How fast this train could go, 5km/hr?
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Old September 26th, 2009, 06:45 PM   #3756
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Wouldn't that be crazy if that was a high speed train?
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Old September 28th, 2009, 07:28 PM   #3757
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Quote:
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"Lineups"? Don't you have the word "queue" in Canada? The English-speaking part, that is.
The joke is seeing no signage in French along that route that has its country's name as its own one.

Un fils d'attente (a lineup) is a result of overabundant anglicisation.
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Old September 28th, 2009, 10:59 PM   #3758
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The joke is seeing no signage in French along that route that has its country's name as its own one.

Un fils d'attente (a lineup) is a result of overabundant anglicisation.
Language fascist?


As if anyone over here speaks French, enough to give French signs some sort of usage. It makes no economic sense. Fact is, French speakers are a very, very small minority here...if more signs should be installed, they should be Chinese considering the Chinese population dominates Richmond (the suburb the Canada Line serves) and the Chinese population is at a near majority in the city of Vancouver.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old September 29th, 2009, 02:35 AM   #3759
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Yea. I think there are only about 2% of people here who use French as a first language. The only good that'd come out of adding French to the signs is to appease people like elkram way over in Quebec. I honestly wouldn't care one way or the other, but then again I can sort of see how that could make someone feel. Chinese only signs, or French only signs exist for various reasons, but they're asking to piss a few people off too... There's an inconsistancy in that YVR uses french/english signs, yet the Canada Line doesn't. So you gotta wonder how that came to be.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 03:11 AM   #3760
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Are the 6 minute headways the max possible with the current trains?

Is it 6 minutes all day or does it vary?
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