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Old July 9th, 2005, 11:01 AM   #361
addisonwesley
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Oh, no no, I wasn't talking about income and costs. Aha. That's the percentage from ridership revenue and government payment/subsidies/financial support. Right, I got those last year though (aheehee).

I think turnstiles would work even without a token system. The MTA in New York uses turnstiles, but they ditched the tokens a while back and now they have 'MetroCards' (I'm pretty sure they have those in Vancouver) which I found much more efficient. Instead of having to carry a bag of tokens, you can just buy a card with however many rides you want. The GTA (greater toronto area) municipalities' transit systems are trying to put something like that together - but not until 2007 (Agghhhh).

Am I too late for the 5-15 minute wait argument? If I am, I apologize, I only read up to page 10. I think somebody probably jumped the track - that happened to my cousin when he was going home from judo. I won't crowd your nice thread here with a picture though, just a link (assuming you were in a downtown part of Toronto and not some outer city station, I chose the Bloor-Yonge station schedule, which is very similar to the other station schedules give or take a minute):
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/3...timesch7qw.png
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Old July 9th, 2005, 11:23 AM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
^ Talk about denial! Look what I found while googling.

The older Expo SkyTrain Line, which is crammed like a sardine can at peak hours, covers its operating expenses.
So the M-Line is losing money, but the Expo line isn't. Unfortunately, it doesn't say what level of operating profit there is on Expo, so we don't know whether the whole Skytrain system is losing much money or not.

Also, once M-Line reaches its ridership targets in a couple years, it presumably won't be losing money either.
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Old July 9th, 2005, 12:02 PM   #363
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The M-Line is at 59,100 riders per day in Feb 2005 and was projected to have 75,000 per day in 2006 (which also assumed that the Coquitlam line was built by 2006, which it won't be) - not really too far off the mark.
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Old July 9th, 2005, 11:11 PM   #364
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The ridership levels on SkyTrain are pretty piss poor when you consider how much they cost to build.
Calgary's CTrain has cost of 5th the price and has higher ridership and the lines are meant for people going downtown like a subway not suburban users.
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Old July 9th, 2005, 11:13 PM   #365
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The trolleys are also non-polluting and although higher to purchase they are cheaper to run and last approx 5-6 years longer than the standard diesel bus.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 12:21 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
The M-Line is at 59,100 riders per day in Feb 2005 and was projected to have 75,000 per day in 2006 (which also assumed that the Coquitlam line was built by 2006, which it won't be) - not really too far off the mark.
But the bottom line is its still off the mark and because of that, by definition, it is a failed system. A truly successful system is one that is cost effective and still gets the job done successfully. Vancouver's transit network ain't that system simply because the expansion patterns are influenced solely by politics. Until you Vancouverites continue to accept that and let those jackasses at Victoria and Translink run you over through their political agendas, the Greater Vancouver transit system is going to suck and you will pay through the nose to continue to let it suck! What you should do is stand up against these political forces and tell them to do their jobs properly through whatever means you have in this democratic society instead of being passive about it and let them take your tax dollars away to build ridiculously inferior systems.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 04:52 AM   #367
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SkyTrain stations gain dangerous reputation
Three assaults and one death this week have commuters calling for protection

6 July 2005
The Globe and Mail

VANCOUVER -- Huddled in the rain beside the bus loop at Surrey Central station, commuters of all ages shook their heads as they walked past a memorial, and one or two wondered out loud if the violence at the train station would stop.

Darwin Benson, 66, gazed in bewilderment at the site where a gang of youth beat a young man to death in broad daylight last Saturday and asked himself whether the incident could have been prevented.

There have been three assaults and one death at Surrey Central station since July 1.

“There needs to be a constant outpost here,” Mr. Benson said. “TransLink and the RCMP have to beef up the security at this station. They can't put rent-a-cops here. They've got to have real cops at this station, and two more guys isn't enough.”

He explained that he commutes four times a week from Surrey on a transit bus or SkyTrain.

“I prefer to travel during the day because most of the time it's safer,” Mr. Benson said.

“That's because of the type of people that are around here at night.”

Standing beside Mr. Benson, Jared Polischuk, 15, agrees that Surrey Central station requires an attendant to keep delinquents away day and night.

“Someone here all the time will solve a lot of the station's problems, but it could also move them elsewhere,” Jared said.

He said he was on his way elsewhere, but stopped to light a candle for the 16-year-old youth killed on the weekend.

“I chill here every day for an hour or two because it's the easiest place to meet my friends,” Jared said.

“You've got to know who to avoid. There's gangs around here.”

He said gangs target senior citizens for their purses or wallets every day and no one hears about the incidents because they are so common.

“I also hang out at the Nanaimo and Scott Road SkyTrain stations and it's dangerous there all the time,” Jared said.

Since January, 207 incidents of assault or robbery have been reported on the 32 million commutes the system has made this year, SkyTrain officials said.

“Nearly 70 per cent of the crimes take place at Surrey Central, Columbia, Lougheed, Patterson, Broadway/Commercial and Granville stations,” said Ken Hardie, a spokesman for TransLink.

“They've happened on the property or spilled onto the property from the surrounding community. The incidents could have happened in a park, playground or shopping mall.”

He said TransLink has 82 special constables and 150 SkyTrain attendants.

The special constables can detain people, issue 24-hour TransLink prohibitions and remove people from the stations, Mr. Hardie said.

“SkyTrain Control can also listen in on every car,” Mr. Hardie said. “Underneath every window of each train car is a yellow strip that can trigger a silent alarm, with someone responding to it in three to five minutes.”

He explained that SkyTrain Control is near Edmonds station, and staff there can also monitor activity at each of the 33 TransLink stations using video surveillance.

“We have now added two security guards to Surrey Central station who will work daily shifts beginning in the afternoon until two in the morning,” Mr. Hardie said.

He said TransLink special constables will be armed when they become a legislated police force in September.

TransLink has been effective in dealing with crime, given that there are more buses and trains than police cars, officials from the Canadian Urban Transit Association said.

“One crime is too many, but transit buses and stations are still safer than other parts of the community,” said Marco D'Angelo, a spokesman for CUTA.

“At the end of the day,” she added, “security issues are the concern of communities.”

TransLink can do more to ensure the safety of their commuters, said Jennifer Efting, an organizer of the British Columbia Bus Riders Union.

“Law enforcement wants to increase their budgets, when they should improve transit safety by putting more buses on the street and lowering passenger fares,” Ms. Efting said.

She explained that BRU's 2004 Women in Transit project, which surveyed 500 women, supported the recommendations.

Leona Osei-Appiah, 16, lives near Surrey Central station and commutes by SkyTrain regularly to work in New Westminster.

“I don't feel safe when I come home at night from work on the SkyTrain,” Ms. Osei-Appiah said. “There are a lot of teens here that are up to no good.”

“In April, there were a group of white teens around at night at Surrey Central screaming, ‘Kill all black people' at me while I waited for my mother to pick me up. I don't know how to call a TransLink person for help.”
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Old July 10th, 2005, 05:09 AM   #368
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The M-Line ridership is only off of an estimate that assumes that the unbuilt part of the line (the Coquitlam/PMC Line) has been built. That assumption is now incorrect - so the forecast figure cannot be validly used. The 75,000 figure includes riders originatng from Coquitlam on a one seat ride Bombardier Skytrain from the stations on the cancelled "PMC Line". So that accounts for part of the shortfall.

Here's the board report on M-Line ridership from the May 20, 2005 Board Agenda:

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/boa...20_05/4.16.pdf

Here's the excerpt from the Board report comparing current ridershuip with the forecasts:

+++++++++++++

Current Millennium Line Ridership Comparisons With Forecasts

Compared to the ridership forecast provided by the provincial government’s Rapid
Transit Project Office (RTPO) in 1999, observed Millennium Line ridership is lower than
projected. Current weekday boardings, including riders from Columbia, are averaging
59,100 per day compared to RTPO’s forecast of 75,000 by 2006. Although the ridership
levels observed on the Millennium Line between 2003 and 2005 represents a healthy
34% increase, it typically takes several years for ridership to ramp up to the forecast, with
the strongest growth in the first few years. To put it in context, it took the Expo Line
almost four years to increase ridership by 36% between 1987 (20,298,000 annual
boardings) and 1991 (27,667,954 annual boardings).

It should also be noted that the Millennium Line project’s ridership forecast assumed that
a rapid transit extension to Coquitlam Regional Town Centre would be in place by 2006.


The lower than projected ridership may also be attributed in part to current land use along
much of the line, which has lower population and employment than originally projected
in 1999. There has been strong recent growth in residential and mixed-use developments
along the Millennium Line corridor in the City of Burnaby. The City provided the
following snapshot of current activities and future developments planned around some
stations:

Gilmore Station
• Major high-rise apartment developments are both under construction and proposed
especially south of the Lougheed Highway between Gilmore and Rosser Avenues.
Some commercial development fronting Dawson Street is included.

Brentwood Town Centre Station
• Major mixed-use high-density residential/commercial developments are planned on
both sides of the Lougheed Highway between Rosser and Willingdon Avenues.
The developments will entail high-rise apartments, office buildings and streetfronting
commercial.
• Major low-rise and high-rise apartment developments are proposed and being
pursued on both sides of the Lougheed Highway between Beta and Delta Avenues.

Holdom Station
• A major mixed-use high-density residential/commercial development adjacent to
the station will likely be under construction shortly. The development generally
consists of high-rise apartments with townhouses and street-fronting commercial.

Production Way-University Station
• Approved developments include a future office building.

Lougheed Town Centre Station
• A major mixed-use high-density residential/commercial development is proposed at
the intersection of Cameron Street and North Road. The development consists of
high-rise apartments and major retailers.

It is anticipated that these developments will spur, and sustain, future ridership increases.

In addition, the highly popular VanCity U-Pass program currently enjoyed by UBC and
SFU has contributed to considerable ridership growth in the transit system since it was
introduced in Fall 2003. The Production Way-University Station is the third busiest
station on the Millennium Line due to the frequent bus service running to nearby SFU.
Building on the initial successes of U-Pass, staff will continue to work with the other
publicly funded post-secondary schools in the region to develop and implement the UPass
Program in stages through the Fall of 2006 and 2007.

Current Millennium Line Ridership Comparisons With Transit System

In comparison with ridership growth seen in other parts of the regional transit system,
preliminary findings from the 2005 SkyTrain Survey suggests the Expo Line also
experienced increased ridership in a range of 15-20% (based on eight reference stations
surveyed). More details will become available when the data tabulation and analysis is
completed.
During the same period from early 2003 to early 2005, the region’s transit system
experienced an increase of 19% in total ridership.

CONCLUSION

The regional transit system, notably the SkyTrain network, has experienced healthy
growth in ridership the past two years. Transit service enhancements and other initiatives
appear to be making noticeable impacts in terms of increasing transit usage, providing
greater transportation choice, changing people’s travel patterns and shaping land use, all
essential elements to improving the region’s livability.

TransLink and subsidiary company staff will continue to monitor the SkyTrain rapid
transit system performance to ensure, and maintain, customer satisfaction and operational
efficiency.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 05:23 AM   #369
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From the Richmond Review:

RAV should get turnstiles, says McCallum

By Jeff Nagel
Black Press
Jul 09 2005

Turnstiles rather than SkyTrain's current honour system should be installed on the planned RAV (Richmond Airport Vancouver) line to ensure fare payment, says TransLink chair Doug McCallum.
He said gates at stations on the new line connecting Vancouver to Richmond and Vancouver International Airport (YVR) are justified because the costs will be low if plans are made now.
I am going to be pushing the board to be putting gates on the new RAV line," McCallum said.
It will mean we need to come up with some capital money to do that."
He doesn't propose to add turnstiles to any of SkyTrain's existing stations.
We're looking at close to $100 million to redo our current stations," he said. It's too much money."
That's because SkyTrain stations are open and would need to be radically redesigned to funnel passengers through turnstiles.
He said installing gates at the initial construction stage is much less than half the cost of doing it afterwards."
McCallum said he's not yet convinced turnstiles cut down on actual fare evasion.
Whether it's effective or not, I've got my doubts," he said.
McCallum added the value is more about perception-and helping end the suspicion of some passengers that others get a free ride.
Sometimes the perception problem is worse than the actual problem."
Other light rail systems the Surrey Mayor has toured in Europe last month are being built without turnstiles, following SkyTrain's open concept.
They're all very open-their systems seem to be going the other way," he said.
It's the same with buses, he added, noting passengers can get on and off many European buses at three different doors without being checked for fare payment.
McCallum wants TransLink's board to ask staff to study turnstiles for RAV and determine the costs.
TransLink is to contribute $400 million to the more than $1.5-billion cost of the RAV line.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 05:41 AM   #370
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Maybe the SkyTrain stations that have the highest ridership and crime waves could get turnstiles? That would be Waterfront, Burrard, Granville, Stadium-Chinatown, Main, Commercial, Joyce, Metrotown, New Westminster, Columbia, Scott Road, Surrey Central, King George, Production and Lougheed Town Centre.

Regarding to the M-Line's lower than expected performance, just look at it as a person who has just lost a leg and imagine him/her attempting to run with a fake leg. It's the same concept. That person will learn, as time passes, how to run faster and faster......and one day, they will develop a state-of-the-art fake leg that resembles a real leg like never before.

This state-of-the-art fake leg is the Coquitlam LRT line....."fake leg" as it's not the same technology as the whole line which is SkyTrain.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 06:17 AM   #371
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What?! Does this mean the train segments won't be interchangeable? That seems kind of stupid, thought you might have learned from our SRT example.

Do turnstiles cost so much that there has to be a debate...
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Old July 10th, 2005, 06:41 AM   #372
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Of course, if the technology of the Millenium Line wasn't the propreitory and costly Skytrain, the Coquitlam LRT wouldn't have a different technology. As a matter of fact, that line could have been built way before and one can even extend the LRT all the way to UBC and Maple Ridge given the extra funding now being allocated for the Coquitlam Line, giving people more choices to ride the rails instead of busing it!

@officedweller, you seem to imply that only Skytrain can spur development. Have you not seen the successes of cities who rely solely on conventional LRT technologies and how they were able to spur development for a much cheaper cost? Why don't you head down towards my home town and see for yourself. Perhaps Translink should also come and visit so they can watch and learn to see how to build a truly impressive rail network that is flexible, cost effective and easily expandable.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 07:43 AM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addisonwesley
What?! Does this mean the train segments won't be interchangeable? That seems kind of stupid, thought you might have learned from our SRT example.

Do turnstiles cost so much that there has to be a debate...
Turnstiles on the M-Line and Expo Line SkyTrain stations would cost $100 million? Does that sound costly? YES!
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Old July 10th, 2005, 08:27 AM   #374
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Wow - $100 million for turnstiles, that's insane! And 90 seconds?! That's mad!
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Old July 10th, 2005, 08:29 AM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addisonwesley
Wow - $100 million for turnstiles, that's insane! And 90 seconds?! That's mad!
There are over 30 SkyTrain stations....that would work out to between $2-4 million for each station. Remember that the stations have to be re-constructed so they will funnel passengers.

and yes, a train at peak hours comes every minute and thirty secs.
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"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 10th, 2005, 08:56 AM   #376
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Ohh - reconstruted, hmm, well, hope they get that work started.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 09:14 AM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
There are over 30 SkyTrain stations....that would work out to between $2-4 million for each station. Remember that the stations have to be re-constructed so they will funnel passengers.

and yes, a train at peak hours comes every minute and thirty secs.
The stations I think need to be recontructed sooner or later, most of the Expo line stations look very worn out and look like trash and some stations like Metrotown I don't think are big enough.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 09:18 AM   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by en
The stations I think need to be recontructed sooner or later, most of the Expo line stations look very worn out and look like trash and some stations like Metrotown I don't think are big enough.
True. But we need to spent money wisely.....do we really need to re-model these stations (except for the installation of turnstiles) or is there a better way to spend money elsewhere such as building more rapid transit lines and buying more buses?

The Expo SkyTrain line stations can be expanded so they can accommodate 8-car Mark I's. I'm not sure if the M-Line has the same capability.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 09:50 AM   #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
True. But we need to spent money wisely.....
If you truly wanted to spend money wisely, RAV should not be tunneled. Duh!
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Old July 10th, 2005, 10:25 AM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
If you truly wanted to spend money wisely, RAV should not be tunneled. Duh!
AND I do not support tunneling where it is certainly possible which is south of QE Park! Why the hell do you always insist that I support tunneling for god knows what?!!!!!!

Can you not accept the fact that somebody has a different opinion on this matter?
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

Last edited by mr.x; July 10th, 2005 at 10:38 AM.
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