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Old March 8th, 2010, 09:05 AM   #3821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
The last day of service for the streetcar "trail" project is on March 21st. Unfortunately, there hasn't been an announcement to build/expand the streetcar project towards Waterfront Stn via Gastown, Chinatown, Main Street-Science World Stn, and the actual Olympic Village (not the station).

People love the Brussels trams. It's a little narrow, but most of them know, through explanation of Bombardier and City of Vancouver workers, that these streetcars are narrow because Brussel streets are narrow. In Vancouver, I'm sure a standard LRT vehicle width would be used instead. Many Vancouverites haven't experienced a surface rail train, since Vancouver doesn't have LRT or Trams, so it was a pleasant surprise for many. General consensus: everyone loves it and wants it to stay.
Yes,trams in Brussels are really narrow; you should see the older types,they look for the first sight (instead of - IMHO - Brussel's Flexity Outlook) for reeeaaallllyyyy narrow Maybe Bombardier should lend you some Flexity Classic trams (for example,Flexity Classic for Bremen - NGT8-1 - is 2,65m wide;meanwhile,there are no Flexity Outlook wider than 2,4m),then Vancouverite's would REALLY love them But we'll have to wait for results of this nearly 2 month's service (of course if this impression and love for trams are as strong as you say ).
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Old March 8th, 2010, 07:00 PM   #3822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
Yes,trams in Brussels are really narrow; you should see the older types,they look for the first sight (instead of - IMHO - Brussel's Flexity Outlook) for reeeaaallllyyyy narrow Maybe Bombardier should lend you some Flexity Classic trams (for example,Flexity Classic for Bremen - NGT8-1 - is 2,65m wide;meanwhile,there are no Flexity Outlook wider than 2,4m),then Vancouverite's would REALLY love them But we'll have to wait for results of this nearly 2 month's service (of course if this impression and love for trams are as strong as you say ).
I think everyone wants it, and even the local transit authority and government love the line, but really, the issue comes down to funding.
  1. TransLink is a regional body and there are far more other priorities for TransLink. It's not really "fair" to improve transportation for an area which already has excellent access whereas other areas (South of Fraser suburbs) have horrible transportation.
  2. TransLink is cash strapped right now and can barely maintain existing transit operations.
  3. City of Vancouver has always envisioned the streetcar and has started the pilot project, but lacks enough funding to make the entire project possible.
  4. TransLink has a monopoly in Vancouver's transportation system.

What might possibly work is that the City of Vancouver, somehow, is able to fund and operate the streetcar line with a number of other organizations (i.e. P3 Project - Provincial and Federal Gov't, and streetcar supplier Bombardier, Alstom, etc.) and strike a deal with TransLink (which they will do) to run the streetcar network. Hopefully, it all goes well and we'll have an announcement before the end of the trial project.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 07:13 AM   #3823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
I think everyone wants it, and even the local transit authority and government love the line, but really, the issue comes down to funding.
  1. TransLink is a regional body and there are far more other priorities for TransLink. It's not really "fair" to improve transportation for an area which already has excellent access whereas other areas (South of Fraser suburbs) have horrible transportation.
  2. TransLink is cash strapped right now and can barely maintain existing transit operations.
  3. City of Vancouver has always envisioned the streetcar and has started the pilot project, but lacks enough funding to make the entire project possible.
  4. TransLink has a monopoly in Vancouver's transportation system.

What might possibly work is that the City of Vancouver, somehow, is able to fund and operate the streetcar line with a number of other organizations (i.e. P3 Project - Provincial and Federal Gov't, and streetcar supplier Bombardier, Alstom, etc.) and strike a deal with TransLink (which they will do) to run the streetcar network. Hopefully, it all goes well and we'll have an announcement before the end of the trial project.
No reason why not. West Vancouver runs it own bus network (the Blue Bus) under a similar arrangement.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 12:19 PM   #3824
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Montreal's Mayor enjoyed his experience during the 2010 games and hopes to take a few ideas from Vancouver back to Montreal.

Quote:
Trolley buses, bike racks among ideas to import from Vancouver

Matias Marchal, a reporter with Metro in Montreal, visited Vancouver during the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games and went back home with five ideas he figured his city could "import" from ours. Trolley buses and bike racks on buses added up to one of those ideas.

In case you're wondering, the other four ideas are InSite, harbour ferries such as AquaBus or False Creek Ferries, hybrid-engine taxis and Vancouver's environmentally sensitive approach to downtown planning. The English translation is by TransLink's PIO, Drew Snider.
(TransLink, 2010)

See PDF: http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Docu...Vancouver.ashx
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Old April 13th, 2010, 02:10 AM   #3825
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Quote:
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but it's not a wash everyday
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Old April 17th, 2010, 09:52 AM   #3826
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Broadway Rapid Transit Corridor Study

Backgrounder:
TransLink, City of Vancouver (CoV), and the Province has been toying with rapid transit on Broadway for decades now. Originally, it was supposed to have constructed by now, but other priorities came about, like the Canada Line for the Olympic Winter Games. In January of last year, the Province announced the UBC Line, bringing rapid transit to UBC via Broadway Corridor. Options are being studied. The corridor right now carries well over 100 000 passengers by bus. Central Broadway is second only to the downtown corridor, on the opposite side of False Creek, when it comes to attracting passengers by transit. UBC is also the regions busiest places, attracting many students and staff members via transit.

Intro Video:


Options being studied (all from TransLink):





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Old April 22nd, 2010, 07:43 AM   #3827
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The public transportation system in Metro Vancouver is woefully inadequate for an urban region with a population of over two million people.

It is considered by many to be a system primarily for the young, the old, and the poor. The buses are nicknamed "loser cruisers" and many people would rather drive a dilapidated vehicle they can barely afford before using the transit network.

The mickey mouse SkyTrain system is expensive, overburdened and cobbled together without much thought given to cohesion, convenience and efficiency.

It will probably take ten more years of "studies" and "assessments" before the much needed underground subway line is built along Broadway to UBC.

Then we have the light-rail fetishists who want to build tram lines everywhere (including down Broadway to UBC!). Trams are basically trolley-buses on tracks and while they may have their uses...along the Arbutus corridor, from Main Street to Granville Island etc., they are not a one stop solution for this region's transportation problems.

Throw in a corrupt and unaccountable organization (TransLink), high fares (in relation to services offered), all around poor planning, and you have public transit Vancouver style.

If Vancouver wants to be taken seriously as a "world class" city planning and building an efficient, comprehensive public transportation network that people aren't embarrassed to use would be a good start.

Here's a tip: To get people out of their cars you have to make using public transit more convenient than driving, the frustrating mess we have today is not going to cut it.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 09:09 AM   #3828
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Tell that to TransLink and the LRT activists who believe building light rail on Broadway can bring LRT to the Fraser Valley.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 09:55 AM   #3829
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That's who my little rant was aimed at, but those guys have their heads buried firmly in the sand.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 09:59 AM   #3830
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I would be surprised if they had heads.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 10:31 AM   #3831
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lol

True enough...
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 10:33 AM   #3832
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Part of me is tempted to just hand over Translink to China Railway Construction Corps, but I know this won't be possible.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 10:41 AM   #3833
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In case many of you don't know already, but there have been many people weighing this debate.

Jarrett Walker, a well known transport planning consultant:
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/...man+Transit%29
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/...man+Transit%29

Note that well known to Vancouver urbanist Price Tags also referenced Jarrett Walker's Mind The Gap blog post.

The Transport Politic, another well known blog.
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...roadway-route/

Then, on the flipside of the debate, a short blurb from the Livable Region's blog, with a comment debate between Patrick Condon (UBC's Landscape Architecture Professor), who wrote the Portland Comparative analysis and proposed streetcars all over Vancouver instead of the RRT for Broadway arguing over "livability" and "density" and "accessibility," points that I think are definitely valid but doesn't solve anything for the Broadway corridor

http://www.livableregion.ca/blog/blo...p=single#c2159
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Old April 23rd, 2010, 08:32 PM   #3834
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In normal circumstances I would not advocate SkyTrain but it's pretty much a must do to aleviate a needless transfer at Comericial/Broadway. The system must be made to be as seamless as possible.
I do not however agree with a UBC extention. It only needs to go to Alma and after that a BLine. After alma the ride is free flowing, the there is available area along 10th for higher density housing and there are far higher priorities namely Hastings. The Hastings corridor along that part of Broadway is far far busier and more congested. Commercial to Alma but after that Hastings must be top priority with no exception. UBC can wait.
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Old April 23rd, 2010, 09:26 PM   #3835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
I do not however agree with a UBC extention. It only needs to go to Alma and after that a BLine. After alma the ride is free flowing, the there is available area along 10th for higher density housing and there are far higher priorities namely Hastings. The Hastings corridor along that part of Broadway is far far busier and more congested. Commercial to Alma but after that Hastings must be top priority with no exception. UBC can wait.
Not so sure if I agree with the fact that "Hastings" should be the top priority after some sort of Broadway Rapid Transit. While Hastings is busy and has a great potential for ridership, the Millennium Line follows a parallel corridor route, and at least that portion of Hastings is well served by local forms of transit. There could be debate on whether the South of Fraser deserves more priority next.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:07 AM   #3836
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I don't understand the obsession with Bombardier's very expensive Skytrain technology and the equally costly Hitachi system used on the RAV line. Not to mention the tiny trains and limited expansion possibilities built into the system...

A more cost-effective, standard metro system running 6-8 car driver operated trains seems to make much more sense.

Human driven trains, and service personnel other than armed transit cops (glorified fare inspectors) on the trains and platforms would also make the system much friendlier and less sterile.

Good ole' Vancouver, sacrificing substance for expensive and mediocre style since 1986.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:32 AM   #3837
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I don't mind driverless trains, per se. The expense of such systems is usually a hindrance.

I wonder if it would be at all possible to essentially turn the Canada Line into a future Vancouver MRT, perhaps turning the two-car units into four-car units.

Though the people over at a some transit websites would probably have a conniption about it.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:11 AM   #3838
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The RAV was so ill thought that the stations cannot be extended beyond 50 meters, a very cosy fit for 3 subway {60 metre} trains. After that Vancouver is screwed and will have to begin building a whole new line. At least SkyTrain was built with 72 metre stations which carries it's ability for 6 MK1 cars but more importantly the stations were all built to be able to be extended to 105 metres which is 9 MK1 lengths but due to the make up of the MK11 that has the capacity of 10.5 MK1 cars. Running every 90 seconds with the higher pick up speeds of SkyTrain that is high subway capacity.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:31 AM   #3839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
The RAV was so ill thought that the stations cannot be extended beyond 50 meters, a very cosy fit for 3 subway {60 metre} trains. After that Vancouver is screwed and will have to begin building a whole new line. At least SkyTrain was built with 72 metre stations which carries it's ability for 6 MK1 cars but more importantly the stations were all built to be able to be extended to 105 metres which is 9 MK1 lengths but due to the make up of the MK11 that has the capacity of 10.5 MK1 cars. Running every 90 seconds with the higher pick up speeds of SkyTrain that is high subway capacity.
In terms of ridership capacity numbers, Canada Line has a potential capacity of the Expo Line in terms of movement of people per hour. The Expo Line is more important to have a high capacity because it connects many regional and municipal centres. Also, the Expo Line cuts through diagonally, which cannot be reproduced anywhere. With the Canada Line, parallel routes can be used, and this is better as it also improves access to rapid transit for many communities. And unlike what many people say, the Canada Line is not going to be overcapacity for quite a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNogatco View Post
I don't understand the obsession with Bombardier's very expensive Skytrain technology and the equally costly Hitachi system used on the RAV line. Not to mention the tiny trains and limited expansion possibilities built into the system...

A more cost-effective, standard metro system running 6-8 car driver operated trains seems to make much more sense.

Human driven trains, and service personnel other than armed transit cops (glorified fare inspectors) on the trains and platforms would also make the system much friendlier and less sterile.

Good ole' Vancouver, sacrificing substance for expensive and mediocre style since 1986.
Cost-effective 6-8 operated trains? First of all, constructing 6-8 car platforms are expensive and not cost-effective. This will just be excess capacity that wouldn't be used for a long time.

Automated trains allow for high frequencies that driver operated trains cannot reach. In theory, SkyTrains can arrive more frequent than 60 seconds, but optimal frequencies are every 90seconds, as ssiguy2 pointed out already. System automation also reduces the cost of having drivers in the first place: from an operational standpoint, it is cheaper, and this has been studied and noted by many public transit agencies. Linear Induction SkyTrains, while slightly more expensive as initially, are easy to operate and maintain. Our MK Is have lasted longer than its designed lifetime and haven't required a motor overhaul. Canada Line, on the other hand, we will have to see... That being said, initial costs per kilometre for Bombardier SkyTrains are still cheaper than 6-8 car systems. Just want to note that the Expo Line has platform extensions that can fit 6 MK IIs.

WRT staff that make up the system, well that's just another story. Being a frequent transit user, I don't see transit cops too much on the system. I see more of the SkyTrain staff. On the Canada Line, service is much better on their line and there is quite a bit of Canada Line attendants at stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
I don't mind driverless trains, per se. The expense of such systems is usually a hindrance.

I wonder if it would be at all possible to essentially turn the Canada Line into a future Vancouver MRT, perhaps turning the two-car units into four-car units.

Though the people over at a some transit websites would probably have a conniption about it.
4-Car units might be pushing it as the Waterfront track interchange are potential limits. In fact, the Canada Line technically can't fit a full 3rd Car unit (@ 20 metres). I believe the maximum is ~ 15m, which would mean overhang for the Canada Line trains, but just be able to fit all the doors on a 50 metre platform.

There are many advantages to automated systems. For one, operational cost is lower, and this has been studied already by many transit agencies. Human error problems are also reduced and

Last edited by deasine; April 25th, 2010 at 10:47 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #3840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNogatco View Post
I don't understand the obsession with Bombardier's very expensive Skytrain technology and the equally costly Hitachi system used on the RAV line. Not to mention the tiny trains and limited expansion possibilities built into the system...

A more cost-effective, standard metro system running 6-8 car driver operated trains seems to make much more sense.

Human driven trains, and service personnel other than armed transit cops (glorified fare inspectors) on the trains and platforms would also make the system much friendlier and less sterile.

Good ole' Vancouver, sacrificing substance for expensive and mediocre style since 1986.
Actually, the Canada Line uses Hyundai trains....and at the end of the day, I would take the Bombardier Mark II's in a heart beat. They are much more superior than the Hyundai trains we have, especially with speed and acceleration (Vancouver is near the top of the list when it comes to this).

And no, I very much like our automated system. While trains are shorter, trains come more frequently than most driver systems and it is done at minimal cost. You can't do this on a driver system without a significant operational cost. Automation is simply cheaper (both operational and capital), more effective, and safer.

In the future, the seating arrangements in the train can be arranged to side seating...that will easily boost capacity inside each train by at least 50%. And without station improvements, but with additional cars for both longer trains and more frequent service, the Expo Line and Millennium Line can each handle 30,000 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd). That is substantial. With future platform extensions from the current 80-metres to ~100-metres, the future max. capacity will near 40,000 pphpd.

The Expo Line has not reached its max. frequency and certainly not its max. capacity....it utilizes 14,000 pphpd of its 30,000 capacity; the trains do not fill the entire length of the platform.

We made a choice to build SkyTrain as our region's transit backbone. What's done is done, there's no turning back, and it has proven itself to be a great system....as the regional backbone, extensions must continue.

What we also need is fare gates.



Would you rather have...

1) A 30,000 pphpd system with smaller 3-car trains running every 90-secs...

OR

2) ...a 30,000 pphpd system with larger 8-car trains running every 6-mins?
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