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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:06 PM   #3841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
I don't mind driverless trains, per se. The expense of such systems is usually a hindrance.

I wonder if it would be at all possible to essentially turn the Canada Line into a future Vancouver MRT, perhaps turning the two-car units into four-car units.

Though the people over at a some transit websites would probably have a conniption about it.
Anything's possible...it is possible to extend the platforms to accommodate 4-car trains (2-car trains paired together, not the shorter middle C-cars). But it would just be very, very expensive....and sadly, it will be a necessary future expense.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:12 PM   #3842
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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
The RAV was so ill thought that the stations cannot be extended beyond 50 meters, a very cosy fit for 3 subway {60 metre} trains. After that Vancouver is screwed and will have to begin building a whole new line. At least SkyTrain was built with 72 metre stations which carries it's ability for 6 MK1 cars but more importantly the stations were all built to be able to be extended to 105 metres which is 9 MK1 lengths but due to the make up of the MK11 that has the capacity of 10.5 MK1 cars. Running every 90 seconds with the higher pick up speeds of SkyTrain that is high subway capacity.
Again, it's a 3-car subway train. Not 3 subway trains, that would make it a 6-car train.

SkyTrain is built with 80-metre platforms, not 72.


And while the Canada Line is most certainly underbuilt, it does have the same max. capacity as the current Expo Line at 15,000 pphpd. It's substantial....current capacity restraints are solely from a lack of trains.

Ridership for the Canada Line is currently at 105,000/day (a number not expected until 2013!), and odds are it will also be much more than 142,000 by 2021. With the Millennium Line extension to UBC with a transfer hub at Cambie to the Canada Line, ridership on the Canada Line could see an increase of 50,000/day.

The Canada Line can still reach frequencies of 90-secs from Waterfront to Bridgeport, and 3-minutes from Bridgeport to YVR or Richmond.


And the Olympics proved that the Canada Line, with all its current 20-trains in use, can move great volumes. It moved 200,000/day comfortably during the Games...there were some delays when ridership exceeded 200,000 and neared 300,000 on some days.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:20 PM   #3843
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In normal circumstances I would not advocate SkyTrain but it's pretty much a must do to aleviate a needless transfer at Comericial/Broadway. The system must be made to be as seamless as possible.
I do not however agree with a UBC extention. It only needs to go to Alma and after that a BLine. After alma the ride is free flowing, the there is available area along 10th for higher density housing and there are far higher priorities namely Hastings. The Hastings corridor along that part of Broadway is far far busier and more congested. Commercial to Alma but after that Hastings must be top priority with no exception. UBC can wait.
Not sure why you're so obsessed with Hastings, you clearly underestimate the demand coming from UBC...a major regional destination.

A Hastings rail transit line can wait until UBC and the south of Fraser rail infrastructure is complete. Hastings is within the Millennium Line corridor, it doesn't make much sense.
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"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:26 PM   #3844
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something Canada line has going for it is its in Vancouver and judging by what the city has not done, other than joyce, they haven't really built up around the stations - its neighbour cities have done so though so there won't be a huge surge in passenger growth to worry about
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:40 PM   #3845
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something Canada line has going for it is its in Vancouver and judging by what the city has not done, other than joyce, they haven't really built up around the stations - its neighbour cities have done so though so there won't be a huge surge in passenger growth to worry about
haha
IMO not at all...many have underestimated the demand on the Vancouver-Richmond corridor. Current ridership numbers prove that.

Although the City of Vancouver likely won't change its policies on densification around most stations, Downtown Vancouver and especially Richmond City Centre will only grow in the years to come. And Oakridge Mall is on its way into becoming a major destination with its future renovations and expansions. There's also rapidly the growing east-west bus ridership that funnels passengers into the Canada Line.

The Millennium Line extension to UBC is going to attract many, many new riders to the Canada Line:

1) Canada Line corridor residents being able to access Broadway quickly

2) Current bus passengers switching to the Millennium Line (via Canada Line) for its shorter travel times to destinations like UBC

3) A flood of Expo Line passengers transferring to the Millennium and Evergreen Lines at Commercial/Broadway for transfer to the Canada Line. It also makes airport rail travel much more feasible to those living in the East.


I'd expect no less than 50,000 new riders on the Canada Line when the UBC extension opens.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

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Old April 29th, 2010, 03:04 AM   #3846
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Interesting perspectives...

One thing I don't get...why didn't they use Skytrain on the Canada Line? I'm not a huge fan of Skytrain but, for consistencies sake, it makes more sense to use the same technology throughout the system. Also, as someone pointed out, at least Skytrain platforms are easier to lengthen when that time comes. Canada Line, not so much.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 05:55 AM   #3847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNogatco View Post
Interesting perspectives...

One thing I don't get...why didn't they use Skytrain on the Canada Line? I'm not a huge fan of Skytrain but, for consistencies sake, it makes more sense to use the same technology throughout the system. Also, as someone pointed out, at least Skytrain platforms are easier to lengthen when that time comes. Canada Line, not so much.
It's not the technology method that restricts platform extension, it's the construction method. SNC/Lavalin's bid was to shave costs, and it was able to meet the capacity requirements set out by RAVCO by using short platforms with shorter, but wider trains. Also note, RAVCO was to level out the playing field. Originally, Bombardier was proposing to add train stocks with the Edmonds OMC, thus making their bid much more attractive. Of course, this restricts other companies, so RAVCO required that this is an independent system with its own OMC and vehicles, which makes sense to some extent.

Before, I thought for consistency sakes, they should just have it SkyTrain too. But one has to realize most metros around the world don't have the same technology/rolling stock used. It is also important to note that the Canada Line and the rest of the SkyTrain network serve a complete different transit user. Transfers between the Canada Line and the Expo Line are there, but there aren't too many, and if there are, most of them are still commuting within Vancouver and choose to use the Canada Line as the other options are much slower (i.e. 99 B-Line). Take the Hong Kong MTR for instance, most of the lines has its own rolling stock, but from the interior, they all look the same. In that sense, I agree, we should've developed a consistent look and branding for the Canada Line. It should have had the same livery design as the new MK IIs (Black/Blue/Yellow/Grey) instead of the ugly blue/green/grey scheme. The interiors should've looked similar to the MK IIs as well, with lots of white light (vs florescent now), comfortable seating material, and yellow handle bars. The Canada Line train icons should look like the SkyTrain ones and there is no need of differentiating the two.

Another advantage of using conventional rail technology is that we aren't stuck with Bombardier if we ever want more rolling stock in our system. Many manufacturers, including Bombardier, create conventional rail vehicles and given the proper specifications, many more companies can build them.

Also to note, if the Canada Line was built to higher specifications, it would've allowed longer platforms, but would've increased its cost exponentially.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 07:57 AM   #3848
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Originally Posted by MrNogatco View Post
I don't understand the obsession with Bombardier's very expensive Skytrain technology and the equally costly Hitachi system used on the RAV line. Not to mention the tiny trains and limited expansion possibilities built into the system...

A more cost-effective, standard metro system running 6-8 car driver operated trains seems to make much more sense.

Human driven trains, and service personnel other than armed transit cops (glorified fare inspectors) on the trains and platforms would also make the system much friendlier and less sterile.

Good ole' Vancouver, sacrificing substance for expensive and mediocre style since 1986.
Obsession. Let's see:
1. trains can run as frequently as 45 seconds apart
2. automated trains accelerate the same and decelerate the same every single time, no exception - meaning headway's are easily maintained
3. no driver means train turn around can be as quick as it takes to load and unload - no need to wait for the driver to switch ends or take a break
4. no driver means trains can be added, or service extended as demand warrants without having to schedule drivers for them
5. no drivers means that trains can run shorter but more frequently - no labour costs involved in running more but shorter trains.
6. standard metros are not necessarily cost effective. The trains are heavier and require more power, more servicing and higher safety standards and train separation, etc.
7. Skytrain is driven by linear induction - no moving parts, so is actually inexpensive and low maintenance - and extremely reliable
8. Drivers do not make me feel any safer - I've never seen one come out of the cab to render assistance. Agree with more staff at stations, but that can be done on the current system, the technology has nothing to do with it.

Here's a fact - in it's 24 year history, Skytrain has never had an accident while under automated control.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 10:42 AM   #3849
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Good point about the turn around. Missed that. And to note, many of the "manual" systems are actually semi-automated. Some systems went full conversion from manual to automated, like the Paris Metro. Interestingly enough, operator RATP was able to do a full conversion of Line 1 to automation while keeping the system fully running: http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...mate-a-subway/
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Old April 30th, 2010, 01:49 AM   #3850
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IMO not at all...many have underestimated the demand on the Vancouver-Richmond corridor. Current ridership numbers prove that.

Although the City of Vancouver likely won't change its policies on densification around most stations, Downtown Vancouver and especially Richmond City Centre will only grow in the years to come. And Oakridge Mall is on its way into becoming a major destination with its future renovations and expansions. There's also rapidly the growing east-west bus ridership that funnels passengers into the Canada Line.

The Millennium Line extension to UBC is going to attract many, many new riders to the Canada Line:

1) Canada Line corridor residents being able to access Broadway quickly

2) Current bus passengers switching to the Millennium Line (via Canada Line) for its shorter travel times to destinations like UBC

3) A flood of Expo Line passengers transferring to the Millennium and Evergreen Lines at Commercial/Broadway for transfer to the Canada Line. It also makes airport rail travel much more feasible to those living in the East.


I'd expect no less than 50,000 new riders on the Canada Line when the UBC extension opens.
it functioned fine during the olympics it will be fine for years to come

teh last time i used it last week it was dead at the stations i went to and there was plenty of room on the trains in the afternoon - expo line was much busier
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 10:02 AM   #3851
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Canada Line races toward capacity
The SkyTrain branch nears 100,000 riders per day three years ahead of schedule after Olympics brought the crowds out

By Kelly Sinoski, Vancouver Sun
June 1, 2010 11:02 PM

The new Canada Line is nearing capacity three years ahead of schedule, prompting TransLink to look at "tactical options" to help ease pressure on the 19-km route.

The line has been recording an average of 94,000 trips per day — just shy of its capacity of 100,000 riders, a number TransLink had not expected to reach until 2013. It now anticipates it could reach that number as early as next year.

While immediate options to ease overcrowding include running an extra train from Brighouse during peak periods, passengers won't see any more trains running regularly between Vancouver and Richmond until the summer of 2011.

TransLink believes passenger numbers are higher than projected due in part to the Olympic need to get drivers off the roads, as well as a push to funnel suburban bus commuters to the new line.

"You make your projections on what you know ... years in advance of the project startup," TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said. "It's probably the Olympics that have been the key difference [between] what we were expecting and what we have."

Ridership on the $2-billion Canada Line has been growing steadily since it began operating last August.

Hardie didn't have a total count of how many new riders are taking the train, but according to TransLink figures, the number of daily commuters from south Surrey and White Rock using the No. 351 bus was up 38.9 per cent in May from last June.

Weekend traffic also rose by 52.5 per cent on Saturdays and 53.2 per cent on Sundays.

That increase, as well as a rise in commuters from Richmond, Delta and Vancouver, has contributed to passenger crunches along the Canada Line.


The squeeze is particularly severe at Brighouse, the transit hub for all local Richmond buses, and Bridgeport, where buses shuttle long-haul commuters from Delta, south Surrey and White Rock, during rush hour.


For Percy Bond, this means he never gets a seat when he boards the train at Brighouse for his commute into Vancouver. The only way he can do so, he said, is to get off at Bridgeport and take the airport train, which is usually empty, into downtown.

"I like [Canada Line] except for the fact it's always full," he said. "What surprises me is they can't put three cars on ... it would be nice to see in the rush hour."

Hardie said that now, TransLink typically runs 14 of its 20 Canada Line trains, each with two cars, at 3.5-minute intervals, with another two trains added at rush hour.

By August of 2011, the transit authority plans to regularly run 16 trains, which will represent a 12-per-cent lift in service, every 3.33 minutes.


Hardie wouldn't say how much this would cost.

But he noted that when "we run more transit, we spend more money."

But that doesn't mean commuters won't see any improvements this year, he said, as TransLink has the option to improve service during peak periods to deal with severe overcrowding or pass-ups.

Options include adding extra trains to the Brighouse line during "peak of peak" periods, he said, as well as having buses scheduled for Brighouse shifted to Bridgeport, where commuters can catch a second, nearly empty train, from the airport.

While the airport trains don't have the same passenger numbers, Hardie said TransLink isn't considering moving some of those trains to the Brighouse line. He noted a new park and ride facility at Templeton on the YVR line is drawing more transit users and airport traffic is expected to rise. The park and ride is for airport workers and passengers, who are travelling on the Sea Island route.


The YVR line carries an average 9,300 passengers per day, or 10 per cent of the total ridership, compared with 15 per cent on the Richmond line.

Hardie noted the Canada Line has only been running for less than 10 months so it's still early days and variables such as high fuel costs or parking can have an effect on transit use.

Vancouver commuter Ken Law, who lives at 49th and Cambie, drove downtown regularly until the Olympics. He said transit has proven to be more convenient, faster and cheaper, especially with higher parking prices expected with the HST.

"I find it okay," he said. "If you can save money and don't have to drive, there's less stress."

Hardie noted he expects ridership to continue to grow, especially as municipalities continue to densify areas around the transit stations.

Richmond has been densifying its city centre since 2000 in anticipation of huge transit use of the Canada Line. "There was a pent-up demand for effective, reliable transit in the Richmond, Vancouver transit corridor," Mayor Malcolm Brodie said.

Meanwhile, Hardie noted there is another silver lining for TransLink if the Canada Line reaches its capacity by next year.

The rapid transit line was built as a public-private partnership, with TransLink guaranteeing to subsidize ridership shortfalls of less than 100,000 per day. It must also provide operator InTransitBC with some capital, as well as debt-service costs of $38 million to $39 million over the life of the 35-year agreement.


Once it hits an average 100,000 riders, Canada Line will reach the break-even point in covering its own operating costs, similar to the Expo and Millennium lines.

"With a lift in capacity next year, that could move [ridership] pretty darn close," Hardie said, but added: "All signs still point to TransLink having to hustle to meet up with the demand."


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Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/t...#ixzz0pfx7GVzN







One big sigh....albeit an obvious ridership success. I can't believe they're still using only 14 trains, and next year's increase will only add 2 trains for a total of 16. It needs 18 today! Unbelievable.

If this were BCRTC-operated SkyTrain, there wouldn't be any of this nonsense...it doesn't cost THAT much to immediately put 2 or even 4 more trains onto the system. The only thing that's obviously stopping them is the P3 contract.




"You make your projections on what you know ... years in advance of the project startup," TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said. "It's probably the Olympics that have been the key difference [between] what we were expecting and what we have."


The Olympics has increased ridership marginally, I certainly wouldn't put the spotlight on the effect of the Games entirely...we saw the numbers before the Games started and they were already quite high.

You sure did screw up on the ridership projections, Translink...or RAVCO, whatever. It was incredibly clear from the beginning that this line would see high ridership.

It's almost unheard of that a new rapid transit rail service is near/at capacity 10 months after opening. It's a [email protected]
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Old June 4th, 2010, 08:00 PM   #3852
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like the Paris Metro
rubbish!
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Old June 5th, 2010, 08:30 AM   #3853
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.

Here's a fact - in it's 24 year history, Skytrain has never had an accident while under automated control.
Guess I tempted fate here. SkyTrain just had it's first derailment while under automated control. Seems something came loose from a train and derailed the following train. No injuries or fatalities, but it shut down a portion of the line for a few hours.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 07:36 AM   #3854
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Guess I tempted fate here. SkyTrain just had it's first derailment while under automated control. Seems something came loose from a train and derailed the following train. No injuries or fatalities, but it shut down a portion of the line for a few hours.
It's important to note that this accident was not because of a computer glitch, but because a loose component of the rail boogie fell onto the tracks, causing the wheel of the MK I vehicle to hit and "jump" the track. I say "jump" because the train was really going at less than 10 km/h.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 12:01 AM   #3855
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You know, I never really got why the "Rail for the Valley" blog has such a beef with the SkyTrain and similar systems.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 01:56 PM   #3856
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It's because Zweisystem sees every dollar spent on the skytrain as money that could be spent South of the Fraser connecting Chilliwack to Vancouver with tram trains.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #3857
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It's important to note that this accident was not because of a computer glitch, but because a loose component of the rail boogie fell onto the tracks, causing the wheel of the MK I vehicle to hit and "jump" the track. I say "jump" because the train was really going at less than 10 km/h.
it's clear you've nothing to say on the matter....."important"?! 2nd rubbish! Steerable trucks a-hunting on some dance floor

by the rate you keep scratching my postings, your dwelling in some fairy tale has been all too clear for much time already...
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Old June 14th, 2010, 02:50 AM   #3858
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it's clear you've nothing to say on the matter....."important"?! 2nd rubbish! Steerable trucks a-hunting on some dance floor

by the rate you keep scratching my postings, your dwelling in some fairy tale has been all too clear for much time already...
I'm pointing out that it wasn't the fault of the computer, but because of aging infrastructure that needs to be refurbished. It's clear that the MK Is need to be refurbished in some way or another as they've already past their end of their life cycle. And note, TransLink is studying this already, either in the form of a large scale fleet replacement or refurbishment.

Why am I deleting your posts? Because you've been saying everything's "rubbish" the entire time. Sure I might have some bias against you, I mean, who isn't bias? But, at the same time, I wonder why you have a tainted track record with many other moderators before me. Also based on previous posts, It's also clear that you dislike other Canadian cities, particularly Vancouver and Toronto.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 02:37 PM   #3859
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I have never been on Vancouver Skytrain, but I have been on the Detroit Peoplemover, which uses trains that are the same as the first generation trains in Vancouver. The Bombardier Advanced Rapid Transit system brings every conceivable advantage. The use of short, fully automated trains that operate at close headways reduces construction cost by enabling smaller stations, reduces operating costs, and provides greater passenger convenience through shorter station wait times. There should be no debate about the advantages of this system.

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Old June 14th, 2010, 04:18 PM   #3860
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It's because Zweisystem sees every dollar spent on the skytrain as money that could be spent South of the Fraser connecting Chilliwack to Vancouver with tram trains.
I would question spending 2 Billion on a tunnel to a University too. Especially if the money can be better spent elsewhere.
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