daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 14th, 2010, 04:33 PM   #3861
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
I have never been on Vancouver Skytrain, but I have been on the Detroit Peoplemover, which uses trains that are the same as the first generation trains in Vancouver. The Bombardier Advanced Rapid Transit system brings every conceivable advantage. The use of short, fully automated trains that operate at close headways reduces construction cost by enabling smaller stations, reduces operating costs, and provides greater passenger convenience through shorter station wait times. There should be no debate about the advantages of this system.
45 second headways are meaningless if the operating agency does not buy enough trains to maintain the headway.
As evident with the Canada Line, smaller stations do not seem to be pleasant. I have my reservations about Skytrain, but I did admire spaciousness of the stations, especially on the Millennium Line. Using the Canada Line again, as an example, it looks like it is going to be very costly to expand the underground stations.
__________________
The more valuable you perceive your time as worth, the less valuable it actually is.

Zaz965 liked this post

Last edited by deasine; June 15th, 2010 at 05:45 AM.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 14th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #3862
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The Bombardier Advanced Rapid Transit system brings every conceivable advantage
thus succeeding at converting "comfort" into some 4-letter words :barf:;puke::crap: all that waste for nothing yet its rolling stock was just several years old...





Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
There should be no debate about the advantages of this system.
there won't be, its induction's just missin' that wee bit o' draw
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post

Last edited by trainrover; June 14th, 2010 at 10:17 PM.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 15th, 2010, 05:23 AM   #3863
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I would question spending 2 Billion on a tunnel to a University too. Especially if the money can be better spent elsewhere.
If you were a local, you'd know that a SkyTrain extension along the West Broadway corridor would serve MUCH, much more than just the university...and it would hands down be an instant ridership success, with 150,000 passengers/weekday over the 11-km span being a conservative estimate.
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

Zaz965 liked this post
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 15th, 2010, 05:30 AM   #3864
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
45 second headways are meaningless if the operating agency does not buy enough trains to maintain the headway.
As evident with the Canada Line, smaller stations do not seem to be pleasant. I have my reservations about Skytrain, but I did admire spaciousness of the stations, especially on the Millennium Line. Using the Canada Line again, as an example, it looks like it is going to be very costly to expand the underground stations.
What's the difference between having shorter trains with a higher frequency and longer trains with a shorter frequency? The same number of cars are used, the only difference is the number of trains.


Currently, only 14 of the 20 trains on the Canada Line are being used. Another 4 can be put into service to maintain a minimum 10% fleet spare reserve.

While the Canada Line is certainly underbuilt with the long-term timeline, it will most likely have sufficient capacity for 30-years with more trains being purchased to increase frequency and platforms being extended by 10-metres to accommodate a 15-metre middle car between the existing 2-car trains.
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

Zaz965 liked this post
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 15th, 2010, 06:17 AM   #3865
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I would question spending 2 Billion on a tunnel to a University too. Especially if the money can be better spent elsewhere.
I remember we had a debate before about this. But thankfully now, the City of Vancouver, TransLink, and UBC has released more detailed statistics with regards to the Broadway Rapid Transit project.

Following is from City of Vancouver:


Quote:
Central Broadway’s Transportation Role

Central Broadway is one of the city’s most active transportation arteries for all modes of travel.

* Walking: The City of Vancouver’s 2008 Pedestrian Study found that three of the top ten busiest pedestrian blocks in the City are located in the Central Broadway C-3A area. The number of pedestrians in Central Broadway has likely increased with the opening of the Broadway/City Hall Canada Line Station.

* Cycling: During warmer months up to 3,000 cyclists move along the Central Broadway corridor every day. While most of these cyclists use two bike routes located within three blocks of Broadway (10th Avenue and 7th Avenue), about 500 cyclists use Broadway itself. This is approximately double the number of cyclists typically crossing the Cambie Bridge and slightly less than those crossing the Burrard Bridge every day.

* Transit: There are roughly 80,000 transit trips along Central Broadway every weekday. Buses make up 3% of eastbound morning peak period traffic along Central Broadway but carry roughly 60% of the people.

* Goods movement : Goods movement is a key function of Central Broadway. It is one of the busiest east west truck routes in the region. Approximately 500 trucks use Central Broadway to service the city beyween 9 am and 4 pm each day.

* Private Automobiles: Despite the reduction in auto related services along Central Broadway (car dealerships, auto repair), it continues to be well used by private vehicles. Over 16,000 vehicles (roughly 19,000 people) move along Central Broadway every day between the hours of 9 am and 6 pm.
Also to note, roughly ~47% of all transit passengers entering the Broadway District is from outside of City of Vancouver, using primarily the 99 B-Line and the Canada Line as their method of transportation.

Aside from surface rail taking up two lanes of traffic, creating more congestion on Broadway and its side streets, I'd also like to point out that any form of surface rail will remove space for cyclists, who have a shared HOV-bus lane from Commercial Station to Arbutus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
45 second headways are meaningless if the operating agency does not buy enough trains to maintain the headway.
As evident with the Canada Line, smaller stations do not seem to be pleasant. I have my reservations about Skytrain, but I did admire spaciousness of the stations, especially on the Millennium Line. Using the Canada Line again, as an example, it looks like it is going to be very costly to expand the underground stations.
I'm not sure what you mean by "it is evident with the Canada Line [that] smaller stations do not seem to be pleasant."

To be honest, 45 second headways are the maximum frequency, but this frequency isn't practical to run. Really, 90 seconds is the maximum average operated frequency, and SkyTrains during rush hours run at an average of ~108 seconds per train, which is close to the average. The fleet has recently expanded with the 1400 series MK IIs (the black ones), increasing the length of each train. By 2020, if all goes well, we would have an even larger fleet with 6-car Mk IIs instead of the current 4-car configuration, and 8-car MK Is instead of the current mixed 6-car and 4-car trains.

As Mr. X pointed out already, we are only using 14 trains instead of the 20, and that has to do with the P3 contract between TransLink and the operating agency, ProTrans. Based on what I know now, the contract is essentially a lawyer's paradise, but many of the terms are expected to change as the Canada Line has already reached 2013 passenger figures. Relatively easy and cheaper methods of expanding passenger capacity without major modifications of the system include:
  1. More Trains: The Canada Line can technically run 30 trains at once despite the single-tracking at the YVR-Airport and Richmond-Brighouse branches
  2. Reconfiguration of seats inside the vehicle: More space can be gained for standees by chaging it to side seating configuration, or removing a "column" of seats, and installing more overhead bars
  3. All stations expanded to 50m instead of 40m: All underground stations are built with 50m, but the extra 10m length is covered simply with drywall. This will fit a three-car train, expanding capacity even more.

If all else fails, I would rather see another parallel transit line to offset passengers on the Canada Line. In a sense, Hong Kong's MTR does this exact same thing. Using a slightly older MTR map here, from Subway Maps:



The Tung Chung Line (Orange), which is more like a frequent commuter railway rather than a Metro, offsets passengers from the Tsuen Wan Line (Red). There are many commuters who take the Tung Chung Line out, then transfer at Lai King, going back onto the Tsuen Wan Line. In fact, MTR built Lai King so that it gives a direct platform-to-platform transfer for those commuters.
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 18th, 2010, 01:04 PM   #3866
Alex MacKinnon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I would question spending 2 Billion on a tunnel to a University too. Especially if the money can be better spent elsewhere.
Have you been to Chiliwack? He's advocating for a one seat ride from Chilliwack to Pacific Central Stn. I can see why we would resurrect the interurban line for part of route say Surrey to Abbotsford, but what's the point in trying to create commutes like this one?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't connect Abbotsford and Chilliwack with the rest of the Vancouver area, but I think atleast having a few commuter routes to drum make sure demand would be a good thing to have before we start getting away from projects which will have a very desirable effect in an area with absolutely terrible road access.
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
Alex MacKinnon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 25th, 2010, 02:14 AM   #3867
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

A few screenshots from the document from the BC Gov't of upcoming Evergreen Line. http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/epic/...348_r_app.html.Not too much we don't know already, other than the precise exact alignment. The renderings we were show are/were quite accurate.

















Notice
In the original LRT alignment, on the top right hand corner of this screenshot was to be the LRT OMC. In this case now, it is a future rail yard.



Notice
Future Coquitlam Spur Line



Notice
The guideway in Coquitlam is to be on the West side of the road rather than the centre, unlike what is proposed for Burnaby & Port Coquitlam on Clarke.

__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 26th, 2010, 03:05 AM   #3868
dwdwone
Subway Dave
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
I have never been on Vancouver Skytrain, but I have been on the Detroit Peoplemover, which uses trains that are the same as the first generation trains in Vancouver. The Bombardier Advanced Rapid Transit system brings every conceivable advantage. The use of short, fully automated trains that operate at close headways reduces construction cost by enabling smaller stations, reduces operating costs, and provides greater passenger convenience through shorter station wait times. There should be no debate about the advantages of this system.
It's quite popular I hear.
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
dwdwone no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2010, 07:09 AM   #3869
shangri_la
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 14
Likes (Received): 1

It's been pretty quiet on this thread. With school back in session tomorrow, there are changes to transit service, among them the return of buses to Granville street downtown. It's gonna be weird to see buses on Granville Street again after getting used to them on Howe and Seymour.

http://www.translink.ca/en/Schedules...e-Changes.aspx

Granville Mall retailers welcoming the return of buses
Transit route expected to give boost to store-front foot traffic
By Brian Morton, Vancouver Sun September 6, 2010 7:02 PM


James Taylor, general manager of Caffe Artigiano at 574 Granville street, sips a coffee on Granville Mall. He is happy for the return of buses to the mall.
Photograph by: Steve Bosch, PNG

VANCOUVER - Buses are scheduled to starting rolling along the Granville Mall again Tuesday after a lengthy absence and retailers expect it to give them a good economic shot in the arm.

“It will bring a lot of traffic here [and] will mean thousands of visitors a day to the neighbourhood,” James Taylor, general manager of Caffe Artigiano, 574 Granville St., said in an interview. “And anything that brings guests to the neighbourhood is perfect.

“Our customer base will grow, with 100 per cent certainty.”

Trolley buses will return to the mall after being removed more than four years ago – April 2006 – to allow for construction of the Canada Line and then for the redevelopment of the mall by the city of Vancouver.

However, buses will continue using an alternate route on Friday nights, weekends and holidays.

Trevor Eastveld, a sales associate with SleepCountry at 756 Granville, said that customer traffic has already picked up with the numerous street events held along Granville Street during the summer, but that the return of buses will certainly help.

“The worst thing was all the [Canada Line] construction. It destroyed us for more than a year. But we’re gradually getting it back.”

Nick Kerasiotis, owner of Olympia Bar & Grill, 911 Granville, said he expects a 10-per-cent rise in business with the return of buses to Granville Mall as shoppers stick around to have lunch or dinner.

“People will see the restaurants along Granville again. It will give life to Granville.”

Kerasiotis also said that the Canada Line construction made it particularly difficult to attract customers, especially those from other parts of Vancouver.

Mike Jackson, manager of Granville Sports Corner, 925 Granville, believes the return of buses to Granville Mall will bring more life to the area.

“It’s got to be good,” said Jackson, who added that his shop suffered a 10-to-20-per-cent drop in business since the buses were taken off the mall. “The construction was major. It was a war zone out there and our clientele really dropped.”

Jackson said that customers from parts of Vancouver not serviced by the Canada Line will now find it easier to get to Granville Mall.

Leo Gomez, manager of clothing retailer Helly Hansen Granville, at 766 Granville, said the added traffic from buses will help their bottom line although the store has only been open for three years so it’s hard to know specifically how it will impact business.

“There’s a lot of stops along our block and that will bring a lot of customers. But we [also] get a lot of foot traffic because of the Canada Line.”

[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
shangri_la no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 04:28 AM   #3870
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

SURREY RAPID TRANSIT STUDY
TransLink is currently studying and evaluating options, as well as consulting the public for ideas to move forward, on rapid transit options for the Surrey and South of Fraser Area.



Identifying the Alternatives
In the South of Fraser Area Transit Plan the public helped to develop a future transit vision that includes rapid transit. Stakeholders then helped to identify the most important areas where people live, work, shop, study and play both today and in the future.

Based on this feedback and further analysis, the most effective way to address the challenges and opportunities is by:
  • Connecting directly to Surrey Centre and other urban centres with high future growth
  • Serving major activity centres today and those planned for the future
  • Connecting these key areas with the most direct routes possible, and using higher capacity rapid transit technology in areas with the highest growth and ridership potential
  • Taking into account environmentally sensitive and other areas where it would be difficult to construct rapid transit

The initial process has identified four approaches to designing a rapid transit network using Bus Rapid Transit, Light Rail Transit, Rail Rapid Transit and connecting conventional bus service.
The ONLY Rail Rapid Transit Alternatives (SkyTrain) are down Fraser Highway to Langley
and down King George Highway to Newton (i.e. to the Interurban RoW).
The connection to Guildford is LRT or BRT - there's no RRT alternative (differing from the Provincial Transportation Plan)
None of the alternatives combine RRT and LRT like the UBC Alternatives did.
Neither do they present an alternative that contains two RRT lines branching.

Rail Rapid Transit Alternatives:
http://www.translink.ca/en/Be-Part-o...ernatives.aspx

RRT Alternative 1


RRT Alternative 2


RRT Alternative 3


LRT Alternatives:
http://www.translink.ca/en/Be-Part-o...ernatives.aspx

LRT Alternative 1


LRT Alternative 2


LRT Alternative 3


LRT Alternative 4


BRT Alternatives:
http://www.translink.ca/en/Be-Part-o...ernatives.aspx

BRT Alternative 1:


BRT Alternative 2:
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2010, 02:34 AM   #3871
deasine
=)
 
deasine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,452
Likes (Received): 57

Forgot to post this earlier... a few conceptual renderings of the Evergreen Line Stations. Most of them do look quite similar to the Canada Line ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dleung View Post
Renders for the new Evergreen line in Vancouver are out. Construction is to begin in 2011 and finish by 2014. Two of the stations look like exact copies of the Canada Line ones, with a half-assed extension to cover the 80-metre platforms. Nothing near as iconic as the Millenium line stations. Some of the station features will include bear-proof garbage bins... yes, bears on the platform aren't out of the question...


The existing lougheed station with a second, smaller canopy covering the third track:


Burquitlam Station




Port Moody Central Station






Ioco Station




Coquitlam Central Station




Douglas College Station

source:http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/d...ssionGuide.pdf
videos:http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/video_gallery.htm
__________________

welopezp liked this post
deasine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2010, 03:45 AM   #3872
lightrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 205
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNogatco View Post
I don't understand the obsession with Bombardier's very expensive Skytrain technology and the equally costly Hitachi system used on the RAV line. Not to mention the tiny trains and limited expansion possibilities built into the system...

A more cost-effective, standard metro system running 6-8 car driver operated trains seems to make much more sense.

Human driven trains, and service personnel other than armed transit cops (glorified fare inspectors) on the trains and platforms would also make the system much friendlier and less sterile.

Good ole' Vancouver, sacrificing substance for expensive and mediocre style since 1986.
Okay - imagine this. With your driver operated system, an unanticipated surge in passengers means you need more trains. So what do you do? Call in your standby drivers, who need to take the train out of the yard and into service. Call in more drivers, but then they might not be available or it will take to long. With automated trains, a press of a button at central control will have extra trains in service within seconds. While many trains are stored at the OMC, a lot are positioned around the network and can go into service literally within seconds. Another trick would be to shorten the turnaround at the end of the trips. Automated trains have no need to go for a pee or to walk to the other end of the train. On the automated system, frequency can be increased simply by shortening the turnaround, essentially sending the train back out as soon as it is loaded.

Sorry, but automated has so many advantages on a grade separated metro that I don't understand why any city even builds driver-based systems now - other than to not get into fights with unions. Even London is working towards automating the tube lines where possible.
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
lightrail no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2010, 06:20 AM   #3873
Balkanada
why worry?
 
Balkanada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 627
Likes (Received): 895

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
I have never been on Vancouver Skytrain, but I have been on the Detroit Peoplemover, which uses trains that are the same as the first generation trains in Vancouver. The Bombardier Advanced Rapid Transit system brings every conceivable advantage. The use of short, fully automated trains that operate at close headways reduces construction cost by enabling smaller stations, reduces operating costs, and provides greater passenger convenience through shorter station wait times. There should be no debate about the advantages of this system.

Does Detroit have a peoples mover because the municipality is afraid that the people operating the trains will be assaulted by the Detroit thugs?
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
Balkanada no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 01:15 AM   #3874
IanCleverly
A New Kind of Medicine
 
IanCleverly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Caerphilly, South Wales
Posts: 446
Likes (Received): 230

__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
IanCleverly no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 02:12 AM   #3875
Spam King
Make America Great Again!
 
Spam King's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Polanco, Distrito Federal
Posts: 879
Likes (Received): 569

I dont get why some people post here and on SSP, about the exact same subjects. Isn't it redudant to post the exact same thing on the same topic in two different forums?
__________________
In the heart of a busy metropolis skyscrapers are a vivid reminder of the constant yearning of the human spirit to rise to God


MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!

Zaz965 liked this post
Spam King no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 08:52 PM   #3876
manrush
Agenda 21 Advocate
 
manrush's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Urban New England
Posts: 4,150
Likes (Received): 499

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam King View Post
I dont get why some people post here and on SSP, about the exact same subjects. Isn't it redudant to post the exact same thing on the same topic in two different forums?
Not everyone reads both forums.
manrush no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 09:40 PM   #3877
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Well done, Balkanada, your offed spite is enough to make one suppose that aging must be counted backwards where you hail from

- Tribute to Detriot - Tribute to Detroit - Tribute to Detroit -
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post

Last edited by deasine; May 25th, 2011 at 08:25 AM.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 23rd, 2011, 12:11 PM   #3878
Nouvellecosse
~ Mysterious Entity ~
 
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Halifax, N.S.
Posts: 4,446
Likes (Received): 313

I agree that automated systems definitely have an advantage and there should be more of them.

@ Trainrover, what the heck? Honestly, most of the time I have no idea what you're trying to say. You seem very eccentric.
Nouvellecosse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 23rd, 2011, 11:14 PM   #3879
spongeg
Registered User
 
spongeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Coquitlam/Rainbow Lake
Posts: 8,034
Likes (Received): 1739

__________________
below it all

Zaz965 liked this post
spongeg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 24th, 2011, 08:45 AM   #3880
lightrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 205
Likes (Received): 16

Thanks Spongeg - that's a great video - never seen it before
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
lightrail no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
british columbia, canada, vancouver

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium