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Old July 12th, 2005, 07:45 AM   #401
rt_0891
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We need highways that are exclusively for trucks, so we can alleviate port traffic.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 08:17 AM   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
A city with no highways and limited road capacity for the future, LRT on the Cambie corridor is out of the question. Calgary, Portland, Toronto, and especially European cities all have an extensive network of highways and rapid transit rail (most commonly LRT). The rapid transit technology in Vancouver has to pick up the slack that roads/highways leave, elevated/tunnel technology is required for RAV. Transit and roads work hand in hand.

LRT on Cambie ain't rapid transit at all. The current plan has a commute time of 25 minutes, with LRT it could be 40 minutes.....that's longer than a car ride from downtown to Richmond Centre.

I haven't been around the Hastings Street area for a year now but the city should do some rezoning from downtown to the PNE, rezoning the corridor to dense residential and commercial. The DT eastside as well.
How the **** do you know that? Have you actually tried the Calgary C-Train or the Portland MAX? Or is your concept of at grade LRT equals a slow tourist streetcar? The MAX and C-Train are FAST and I must say it is just as fast or sometimes faster than Skytrain. The train lets people board in the station and when its time to go, the driver pushes a button and the light goes green. It does not stop for any car traffic at all! Just look around the various threads about the tram systems in the Europeans cities and tell me why they are so damn popular and why when it comes to the Westside of Vancouver, it must only be tunneled?
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Old July 12th, 2005, 08:46 AM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
the $1.8bil RAV will only attract 30,000 new passengers a day by 2020. A horrific waste of money when LRT would do at less than half the price.
That's your way of looking at it. I would say RAV will add closer to 100,000 riders a day to the whole public transit system. It's not like the buses it will replace won't be used elsewhere. By 2020, I'm not certain an LRT could even efficiently handle enough passengers.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 09:00 AM   #404
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Anything at grade on Cambie would be terribly slow, as it would never get through the traffic. Making dedicated lanes would not even be considered, imagine a 6 lane road in some parts suddenly turning into 2...can you say "permanent gridlock"?
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Old July 12th, 2005, 09:03 AM   #405
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@ Zonie, again, how the hell could you possibly know that LRT cannot handle it? WTF is all this prejudice against LRT among Vancouver forumers. Are you people that defensive over your pathetic ridiculously expensive Skytrain and RAV that you would diss the most reliable, expandable, tested and proven rail technology out there? GOD!!! You can't even build a Skytrain from Coquitlam to UBC and the airport without running out of money or getting squashed by the creme de la creme.

And what is your justification that RAV will add 100k a day? Do you think the car loving people of Richmond and Westside Vancouver whom a lot are from mega cities with much more sophisticated rail transit network but would rather drive their Acuras and BMWs, especially since apparently, there is no reduction in roadspace, would trade those cars for a transit pass soon?

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Old July 12th, 2005, 09:08 AM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zivan56
Anything at grade on Cambie would be terribly slow, as it would never get through the traffic. Making dedicated lanes would not even be considered, imagine a 6 lane road in some parts suddenly turning into 2...can you say "permanent gridlock"?
If the LRT has priority over the car traffic like the ones in Portland and Calgary, then that ain't bad as the people in the cars watch idly by while the train goes by. People should be punished for taking their cars instead of the rail line that is available for them to use. And if that's not acceptable, then what makes you think those very same car drivers would take the tunneled RAV if the roads are freely available for them to use?
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Old July 12th, 2005, 11:18 AM   #407
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Quote:
And what is your justification that RAV will add 100k a day?
This link suggests RAV will carry 100,000/day, and be supported by strong growth along the corridor. And if nobody likes to take transit in Richmond, then why are the buses packed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
@ Zonie, again, how the hell could you possibly know that LRT cannot handle it?
This supposed quarter- to half-priced LRT system you and ssiguy are boosting would likely involve a lot of at-grade operation on some busy arterial. It would be very difficult to run a sufficient number of trains before traffic grinds to a halt, especially if some lanes are replaced with tracks, like Zivan said. The net cost of that, including the inefficiencies caused to commercial traffic, would eventually be higher than the cost of RAV for a much lower capacity system.

Just to put it in perspective for you, RAV alone is projected to carry more passengers than the entire Portland Max system (83,800 on their website).
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Old July 12th, 2005, 08:00 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
If the LRT has priority over the car traffic like the ones in Portland and Calgary, then that ain't bad as the people in the cars watch idly by while the train goes by. People should be punished for taking their cars instead of the rail line that is available for them to use. And if that's not acceptable, then what makes you think those very same car drivers would take the tunneled RAV if the roads are freely available for them to use?
The fundamental difference between Portland/Calgary vs. Vancouver is that Vancouver's CBD is not serviced by any freeways, while Calgary can rely on Hwy2. & a bit on Hwy1 (though parts of it is not controlled-access) & Portland can rely on I-5, 405 (practically a ring around the CBD), 26 & 30 feeder routes.

Incidently, Vancouver has a giant port just East of the CBD, and relies heavily on Commerical trucks to transport the Containers elsewhere (see Main-Knight corridor). Add to the fact that people have to travel on city streets to get to downtown Vancouver, and suddenly, every aterial road-lane becomes gold. LRT could work, but many people would have to drastically change their lifestyle or be prepared to be stuck in endless traffic. If LRT is applied in Calgary and Portland, most citizens can still easily travel by car to get to the CBD, so it wouldn't really affect them.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 08:55 PM   #409
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And remember, in Vancouver there is significant crosstown commuting traffic. The CBD is not the only work destination for many people - so those arterial road lanes are still required for crosstown traffic.

As for focussing on the City of Vancouver, Nutterbug hits it on the head:

Quote:
What's more, the NIMBYs make development of new transit systems within the city that much more difficult.
Homes within the City of Vancouver are within easy driving distance to downtown - so why would those residents want rapid transit to downtown as a priority? Traffic within the City of Vancouver isn't as bad as being stuck on a freeway (like at Port Mann or Hwy 99) - you can rat-run through the side streets to avoid traffic.

The commuters who need traffic relief - via rapid transit - are those with the longest and most difficult commutes.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 11:09 PM   #410
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^ I live in white rock and went to school in Kitsilano. Traffic on highway 99 is bad, but not any where near as bad as street traffic in Vancouver in fact most delays on the highway are caused by the oak street bottle neck. I know quite a few who live near the RAV-line route and most of them use the B-line or other buses to go into the downtown core, B-line is fairly slow durring rush hour I think that having a rapid transit line that can move you from Richmond centre to Waterfront in under 30min (you can't do that in a car even at night with out speeding or running lights) will get people out of there cars.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 11:15 PM   #411
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I remember having to get to Richmond for a 6:00 pm for a wedding rehearsal a couple of years ago - I was stuck on Oak Street for 45 minutes. My comment about rat-running applies to homes in Vancouver. The bridges are the biggest bottlenecks around.

Interesting article from the Seattle Times regarding the Monorail:

***************

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

Editorial

Prophets of Monorail, face the reality

Having abandoned its plan for a 50-year mortgage and having lost its two executive prophets, the Seattle Popular Monorail Authority is wondering what's next. Our recommendation is to end the project.

Part of that case was made here July 2. We argued that the only way to save the monorail would be to ask Seattle voters for a sharply higher car-tab tax, and that neither the plan nor its managers inspired the confidence to make that choice. There is another reason. Transportation is a regional problem, and the Seattle Monorail Project is not a regional system. It never made much sense for the region's central city to go off by itself and spend $2 billion on an elevated railway to be used, and paid for, by city residents only.

All Seattle residents are taxpayers of another rail-transit agency with a broader tax base and much more county, state and federal political support. That is Sound Transit. When monorail was proposed, Sound Transit was in a mess. Monorail allowed Seattle voters to put Sound Transit out of their minds and chase their city-only dream. Now the Monorail Authority is in a mess, and Sound Transit has meanwhile forged ahead by selling bonds, receiving its federal grant, beginning construction of light rail and by operating commuter trains and a bus service. Monorail has done none of these things.

This page has been critical of Sound Transit and remains so: Its bus service is a good addition to Metro Transit's fine service, but its commuter trains amount to elephants of capital providing a mouse's worth of benefit, and its light-rail construction is costing a fortune. But cost overruns at one rail-transit agency do not make it more excusable to have overruns at another. If anything, they should limit our tolerance of public-sector dot-com fiascos.

In addition, other projects clamor for support. A tax increase for the Alaskan Way Viaduct, Interstate 405, the Highway 520 bridge, other road projects — and probably also Sound Transit light rail, phase two — is likely to be on the ballot in November 2006. That's not just Seattle's ballot, but the whole region's. Seattle voters need to face that question as members of a region, not as a separate group with a private dream.

Monorail was a fine dream. The reality is otherwise. Let it go.

Copyright © 2005 The Seattle Times Company
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Old July 13th, 2005, 12:45 AM   #412
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The new Trolleys:











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Old July 13th, 2005, 01:26 AM   #413
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Cool. Thanks. You can tell it's a low floor vehicle - the roof line is lower than the older trolley in front of it.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 02:28 AM   #414
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^ Is that the new livery design for all the new buses, or just the fleet of that particular model of trolleys? I like it better than the yellow stripe sandwiched between the blue stripes as seen on the standard Translink buses, though the B-Line livery is my favourite.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 03:09 AM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
When I was in Vancouver, all I hear is whining and complaining. The fares are too high. The system isn't comprehensive enough. The bus services are not available in certain areas. The Skytrain is riddled with crime. The people are commuting to the suburban office parks not served by transit. The traffic is horrendous. Are these the testimonials of a city with no planning blunders?
no. THese are the testimonials of whiners who find a way to complain about ANYTHING.

all those "complaints" are ones that have been brought up by a TINY minority of people. And most of it is bullshit. The system is one of the most comprehensive in NA in terms of access. All th suburban office parks have bus access. I've worked at MORE than one - in richmond and burnaby while living in vancouver and commuting by transit

the traffic is only horrendous in the midns of the whiners and nothign out of the ordinary for the standsads of the planet

the skytrain riddled with crime is a complaint about overly safe morons who don't know any better. Compared to any other city of similar size - in Canada or anywhere, the crime is minimal.



But you know what - your'e right Wally. Just because 1% of the population fof Vancouver complain about issues and problems THAT AREN'T ACTUALLY THERE, that means that Vancouver has a horrible history of planning blunders.

TRY NAMING ONE. One outside of RAV (which we have yet to see what it's affect will be), and the ME line (which nobody in vancouver thinks is a blunder). Name ONE (or two, if there's so many as you seem to think s).
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Old July 13th, 2005, 03:48 AM   #416
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I must say I have A LOT of problems with Translink but the trolley fleet isn't one of them.
For Vancouver , yes the M-Line and soon to be RAV are wastes of money in epic proportions. Just compare the ridership levels to CTrain that cost less than one third the price and serves inner city dwellers far better.
It not just what Vancouver has built but also just poor planning.
Why didn't they create a transit ROW to Richmond/Airport years ago. It would have been very easy considering the low density.
Allowing low density in all areas south of Broadway has been a nightmare.
Vancouver has no proper roads but was also the last major city in Canada to get rapid transit.
Why does Translink try to serve suburbanites befor urbanites where the ridership is.
Why did they not set aside Arbutus Corridor while it was there like anyother city would do.
Why did they not secure the railway to Langley for Commuter Rail. Why have they not even secured the ROW right beside it before they allowed all the development in Cloverdale and now it is too late?
Why do they not have HOV on the Lion's Gate like highway 99?
Why are they not demanding a fleet of commuter buses as a condition of the inevitable PortMann widening?
Why did they go with those huge and expensive WCE double-decker trains when the thing only carries 9,000/day? Why not use an O-Train type vehicle which is far less costly to both run and buy and yet are more flexible so they could run thru the day?

Vancouver is a product of poor urban planning which is making rapid transit both expensive and underutilised.
Vancouver's downtown is populace and dense and with a few exceptions like MetroTown and Newest Vancouver is a sprawling mess.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 04:35 AM   #417
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51. The number of times "Calgary" or "C-Train" has been mentioned in a Vancouver topic.

27. The number of times "Toronto" or "Go Train" or "TTC" has been mentioned in a Vancouver topic.


Enough with this!



Awesome pics of the trolleys btw.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 04:52 AM   #418
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Quote:
Why didn't they create a transit ROW to Richmond/Airport years ago. It would have been very easy considering the low density.
SkyTrain was going to be built by now for $500 million, yes this is the RAV line.....but the political climate changed and it was cancelled.



Quote:
Why did they not set aside Arbutus Corridor while it was there like anyother city would do.
The city has already said it has plans for streetcar along the corridor.



Quote:
Why do they not have HOV on the Lion's Gate like highway 99?
There isn't any space to begin with. There's no point in putting HOV lanes on a tiny 3-lane bridge.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 05:04 AM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt_0891
The fundamental difference between Portland/Calgary vs. Vancouver is that Vancouver's CBD is not serviced by any freeways, while Calgary can rely on Hwy2. & a bit on Hwy1 (though parts of it is not controlled-access) & Portland can rely on I-5, 405 (practically a ring around the CBD), 26 & 30 feeder routes.

Incidently, Vancouver has a giant port just East of the CBD, and relies heavily on Commerical trucks to transport the Containers elsewhere (see Main-Knight corridor). Add to the fact that people have to travel on city streets to get to downtown Vancouver, and suddenly, every aterial road-lane becomes gold. LRT could work, but many people would have to drastically change their lifestyle or be prepared to be stuck in endless traffic. If LRT is applied in Calgary and Portland, most citizens can still easily travel by car to get to the CBD, so it wouldn't really affect them.
If I remember correctly at looking at the Portland map, the LRT mainly serves the suburbs of Portland outside of downtown, and there a huge part of south Portland (actual city) that it does not even go though)
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Old July 13th, 2005, 05:46 AM   #420
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ssiguy2, I cannot stand your negativity. First off, you live on Saltspring Island, which makes me wonder why you even care about public transit seeing as though you never ride it. Secondly, you discredit yourself with such fallitical statments as "Vancouver is a product of poor urban planning." Translink trys to serve suburbanites before urbanites because, if you have ever lived downtown, you would know you can easily walk anywhere you need to, not to mention the latest invasion of community shuttles. Why serve people who can already get around without a car?

As for the Lions Gate Bridge, it does have an HOV lane on the West Vancouver side, vehicles with, I believe, 8 or more passengers can skip over the Marine Drive back ups. On the southside, buses have an HOV lane to dodge the traffic on Georgia. I know thats not what your talking about though, you mean on the bridge. Well the bridge only has three lanes, and it was built in 1937. That was 68 years go. Please forgive the Guinness family for their lack of foresight. The bridge originally only had two lanes, then a thrid was added. It was not designed to handle large volumes of traffic, so don't tell me they should have put another layer on the bridge when they already ban trucks from using it. They couldn't have twinned the bridge because that would destory Vancouver's crown jewel, and a thrid crossing is a waste of money. Easiest way to deal with it, increase Sea Bus service from Waterfront to Ambleside, Bowen Island, maybe Deep Cove (or some North Vancouver equivilent) a la Sydney's Circular Quay (which by the way, I was very impressed with). And Translink is working on this.

Millenium line a waste of money? Sitting in your home on Saltspring I assume you judge the line by its ridership numbers. Well, I ride it about once a week, which is pretty good considering I live on the North Shore (well, 5/7 days a week). The stations are unbelievably beautiful and worth every penny. The line is highly efficent and fast, I have no complaints what so ever. The Gilmore area has seen an explosion in growth with atleast three or four towers in construction. Even aside from the M-Line, did you critize the Expo Line until Central City was built? Then the annoucment of five towers over thirty stories in height, the first tower selling out in what, seven hours? That is nineteen years after the line was built, and it is still spurring growth, conforming with the GVRD's plan to deal with sprawl. The M-line is just three years old. The ridership will grow.

You sound like the type of guy who makes statements like "The RAV-Line is a Cadillac solution to a Volkswagon problem." Well yeah, it is. But I don't know about you, but I certinely would enjoy a nicer car then the one I ride in now, wouldn't you? Not to mention the safety aspect of owning a more expensive car. If you own something like a Bently or Lamborghini, you don't have to worry about it being stolen because everyone is looking at it. But, above all, this is comming from someone who not only lives in a completely different metropolitan area, but will never even use it. If/when you have to use Public Transit, I'm sure you'll see something you didn't before.

And just as a closing remark, this was printed in the Spring/Summer 2005 Harvard Design Magazine. It includes an article on the success of Vancouver's Urban Planning, and interviews Larry Beasly, head of planning in Vancouver:

"[Vancouver] is very unique, and it is very intresting in that it actually competes with those world cities not by trying to be what they are but by being an alternative that they could never be."

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