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Old July 13th, 2005, 05:47 AM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt_0891
LRT could work, but many people would have to drastically change their lifestyle or be prepared to be stuck in endless traffic.
BULL'S EYE!!!! That is the root cause of the problem of the Greater Vancouver area. The fact that people simply do not want to give up their auto oriented lifestyle for decent but affordable light rail transit. I find it so damn hypocritical that Greater Vancouver prides itself for not having freeways and yet simply does not do what it can to expand the rapid transit network that would cover every resident of that area, whether they live in Maple Ridge, West Vancouver, or White Rock. Instead of spending all that money on Millenium Line or RAV, you could have easily have a comprehensive and properly Light Rail Network that would more than cope up for the lack of roads. But alas, Vancouverites don't want to change their lifestyle. The whole RAV being tunnelled, for example, is done for two reasons: 1) To appease the creme de la creme and 2) two appease the single occupant driver.

And now, I hear the Ministry of Transportation of BC is pushing for building a new freeway system towards Vancouver to service even more drivers. WTF??? You see! Poor urban planning indeed. All centered on the single occupancy vehicle user. RAV and Millenium Line is just there for show since ultimately, they will or are being built solely because of politics and will be underutilized given their locations, the zonings, and the fact that the people in power don't give a damn about getting the best bang out of your tax dollar buck!

@ zonie, RAV may have the capacity to carry more riders than the MAX but that does not translate to riders.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 05:56 AM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npinguy
no. THese are the testimonials of whiners who find a way to complain about ANYTHING.

all those "complaints" are ones that have been brought up by a TINY minority of people. And most of it is bullshit. The system is one of the most comprehensive in NA in terms of access. All th suburban office parks have bus access. I've worked at MORE than one - in richmond and burnaby while living in vancouver and commuting by transit

the traffic is only horrendous in the midns of the whiners and nothign out of the ordinary for the standsads of the planet

the skytrain riddled with crime is a complaint about overly safe morons who don't know any better. Compared to any other city of similar size - in Canada or anywhere, the crime is minimal.



But you know what - your'e right Wally. Just because 1% of the population fof Vancouver complain about issues and problems THAT AREN'T ACTUALLY THERE, that means that Vancouver has a horrible history of planning blunders.

TRY NAMING ONE. One outside of RAV (which we have yet to see what it's affect will be), and the ME line (which nobody in vancouver thinks is a blunder). Name ONE (or two, if there's so many as you seem to think s).

OH PLEASE!!!! You are obvioulsy making up your stats. Show me the link that only 1% of the population are whiners! And about your trying to name one outside RAV and the ME Line. Well, there is only the Expo Line that is left since the big metropolis of Greater Vancouver only has three rapid lines now and forever.

You are so typical. "Love Vancouver, love Vancouver, its perfect! There is nothing wrong with my city that I happen to live in because its perfect" All legitimate complaints are automatically false, we have the most comprehensive transit network that beats New York, London or Hong Kong. Our Skytrain is the best in the planet. BLAH BLAH BLAH! IN YOUR DREAMS KID!!! The Greater Vancouver Transit is a joke! The city of Vancouver demands this and that and yet expects its suburbs to pay for their "sexy" subway and streetcar with little return for their buck. Given that, say Port Coquitlam, also pays for that fancy trolley bus, not just the city and residents of Vancouver who can use them, well, where are Port Coquitlam's fancy trolley buses?

And as far as business parks, what about Glenlyon in Burnaby? Commerce Parkway in Richmond? The Xantrex complex in Burnaby Mountain? That area in Langley with the Costco and office buildings? Where are their buses and how often do they come?
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Old July 13th, 2005, 06:04 AM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
And remember, in Vancouver there is significant crosstown commuting traffic. The CBD is not the only work destination for many people - so those arterial road lanes are still required for crosstown traffic.
Again, bad city planning. Why would a region disperse its employment centers into areas not easily served by rapid transit? They should at least enforce the GVRD LRSP but with mayors like Doug McCallum, who happens to be chair of your precious Translink, tells the GVRD to **** off, builds office parks, big box stores and supports more freeways to service his sprawly citizenry, how can you possibly have a decent transit network that services all residents of the region?
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Old July 13th, 2005, 07:38 AM   #424
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I'm not at all advocating no expansion of the rapid transit network. Quite the opposite as I support rapid transit to Richmond/Airport but not the way it is being built.
It is an outrageous amount of money resulting in relativly small ridership increase.
Remember, the 70,000/day they are hoping for are only 30,000 new passengers as the rest are already using transit and suburban buses are all being rerouted to it.

You serve urban dwellers first! Vancouver works ass backwards. The proof is in the pudding.........incredible expensive SkyTrain lines with poor return on the dollar.
Yes the Expo line carries 180,000/day but its also 30km long. That is not very good for a city this size.
Ottawa has higher percapita ridership yet serves only40% of the population base and doesn't even have LRT or SkyTrain just Transitway. That should tell you heeps.

BTW, don't tell mer I'm always down on Translink. The first thing I said in my last post was how I support Vancouver trolleys and as I have mentioned before I find the bus service in downtown and the inner city areas very good. Its just these huge white elephants Vancouver insists on building that get little in the way of results.
The numbers just don't lie.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 07:42 AM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by en
If I remember correctly at looking at the Portland map, the LRT mainly serves the suburbs of Portland outside of downtown, and there a huge part of south Portland (actual city) that it does not even go though)
Downtown Routes:

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Old July 13th, 2005, 08:06 AM   #426
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Wally. That's three posts in a row. My head hurts. Aside from Portland, what other cities are good examples of well planned cities? I'm curious. Maybe there is a pattern or reason why some cities work well and others don't. I think Vancouver's "planning" was pretty much set a hundred years ago. Not much we can do about that now, but people are trying to deal with what we've got. With rapid population growth, cracks in the system appear. This is common in growing cities. Damn, at least we're not like Cairo or some place like that. Give us some praise once in a while.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 08:14 AM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
BULL'S EYE!!!! That is the root cause of the problem of the Greater Vancouver area. The fact that people simply do not want to give up their auto oriented lifestyle for decent but affordable light rail transit.
Except for NYC, not many North Americans want to give up their auto-oriented lifestyle. Not in Portland, Toronto, Chicago, Vancouver, Calgary, and the list goes on. Seriously though, I think rising gas prices could revolutionize the way NA develops suburbs in the future.

Quote:
Instead of spending all that money on Millenium Line or RAV, you could have easily have a comprehensive and properly Light Rail Network that would more than cope up for the lack of roads. But alas, Vancouverites don't want to change their lifestyle.
The problem with implementing a LRT network is that it would disrupt too much traffic (private and commerical vechicles), and cause massive headaches across the region. If Vancouver had a freeway running to downtown & a cohesive freeway system throughout the region, that would be a different story, since trucks and private vehicles will use the freeway instead, and arterial roads would be freed up for LRT.

As I've stated before, Calgarians and Portlanders have stable freeway systems to rely on, so they're less likely to complain about LRT than Vancouverites.

Quote:
I find it so damn hypocritical that Greater Vancouver prides itself for not having freeways and yet simply does not do what it can to expand the rapid transit network that would cover every resident of that area, whether they live in Maple Ridge, West Vancouver, or White Rock.
The problem with Maple Ridge, West Vancouver (they don't want PT by the way) and White Rock is that most of the developments there are sprawling detached suburbs, and with a low ppkm2, it simply can't support any form of PT. Unless these areas change their style of development, building PT there would be a waste of tax dollars. BTW, they are serviced by WCE & Translink buses, which are the most cost-effective alternatives for the area.

Quote:
And now, I hear the Ministry of Transportation of BC is pushing for building a new freeway system towards Vancouver to service even more drivers. WTF??? You see! Poor urban planning indeed. All centered on the single occupancy vehicle user. RAV and Millenium Line is just there for show since ultimately, they will or are being built solely because of politics and will be underutilized given their locations, the zonings, and the fact that the people in power don't give a damn about getting the best bang out of your tax dollar buck!
Well, remember that Portland too has a well-developed freeway system running around the CBD & surrounding suburbs. Though it would be a dream for cities not to have freeways, the fact is that they're needed to ship goods around and ensure that the GVRD's economy keeps chugging along. A healthy city needs a fine-balance between transit and roads. Vancouver has the same population as Portland, yet compared to Portland, Vancouver's highway system looks woefully under-developed. It's ridiculous how 91 (91A) does not even link with Hwy1.

The use of HOV lanes & encouraging carpool could effectively solve some of the traffic problems, and SOVs should be tolled for being an inefficient way to travel.

Of course, Freeways are meant to handle current capacity, and the region should enforce the Livable Strategies Plan in more regions of the GVRD to increase density and create more transit friendly communities around Skytrain stations (possibly modelling it after downtown). This would encourage Vancouverites to change their lifestyles and favour PT over the car.

This would require a drastic shake-up of the GVRD's political scene (merging municipalities together, weaking the influence of NIMBYs, etc.). Essentially, Vancouver's unusually large concentration of Canada's rich and elite has become quite a crutch for the region.

Last edited by rt_0891; July 13th, 2005 at 08:56 AM.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 08:15 AM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73
Wally. That's three posts in a row. My head hurts. Aside from Portland, what other cities are good examples of well planned cities? I'm curious. Maybe there is a pattern or reason why some cities work well and others don't. I think Vancouver's "planning" was pretty much set a hundred years ago. Not much we can do about that now, but people are trying to deal with what we've got. With rapid population growth, cracks in the system appear. This is common in growing cities. Damn, at least we're not like Cairo or some place like that. Give us some praise once in a while.
or India.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 08:19 AM   #429
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Is that the honour system at work?
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Old July 13th, 2005, 09:23 AM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73
Wally. That's three posts in a row. My head hurts. Aside from Portland, what other cities are good examples of well planned cities? I'm curious. Maybe there is a pattern or reason why some cities work well and others don't. I think Vancouver's "planning" was pretty much set a hundred years ago. Not much we can do about that now, but people are trying to deal with what we've got. With rapid population growth, cracks in the system appear. This is common in growing cities. Damn, at least we're not like Cairo or some place like that. Give us some praise once in a while.
Well, its difficult cover all the silly arguments praising the Vancouver Transit system that truly sucks in one posts given that I have to put my point across to at least three or four forumers. I'll give a praise to Vancouver for the usual natural settings stuff but I most certainly not give it praise for its pathetic transit system.

The success of Portland has a lot to do with its people and leader's desire to curb sprawl and create transit oriented development. Other cities are trying and I said so many times already that Vancouver's GVRD LRSP is a good plan. Unfortunately, planning is the easy part. Implementation is hard, especially in the Greater Vancouver area in which rapid transit expansion is decided solely by politics, the RAV Line being the baby of the right wing party while the Millenium Line being the baby of the left wing party. And even the head of Translink itself even goes against the sound urban planning of the GVRD and would rather have more sprawl and auto oriented development.

If and only if the Greater Vancouver area would for the life of me just do what is right and logical, then I would support it. But RAV at its current form, hell no! Millenium Line as Skytrain, **** that! Every rapid transit expansion in the GVRD in the past six years are a joke and I pity those poor people in places where these political trophies are not present and yet still have to pay for them.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 09:27 AM   #431
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Vosloh-Kiepe has released information on our new trolleys:










View the full report on our trolley buses in PDF (the whole thing isn't German just to tell you so you're not turned off by it when you see German.......the left side is German, the right side is English):

http://62.153.170.122/files/dao_proj...couver_501.pdf









and from rt_0891, pictures of the trolleys:
The new Trolleys:











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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


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Old July 13th, 2005, 09:28 AM   #432
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Vosloh-Kiepe has released information on our new trolleys:










View the full report on our trolley buses in PDF (the whole thing isn't German just to tell you so you're not turned off by it when you see German.......the left side is German, the right side is English):

http://62.153.170.122/files/dao_proj...couver_501.pdf
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 13th, 2005, 08:04 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Well, its difficult cover all the silly arguments praising the Vancouver Transit system that truly sucks in one posts given that I have to put my point across to at least three or four forumers. I'll give a praise to Vancouver for the usual natural settings stuff but I most certainly not give it praise for its pathetic transit system.

The success of Portland has a lot to do with its people and leader's desire to curb sprawl and create transit oriented development. Other cities are trying and I said so many times already that Vancouver's GVRD LRSP is a good plan. Unfortunately, planning is the easy part. Implementation is hard, especially in the Greater Vancouver area in which rapid transit expansion is decided solely by politics, the RAV Line being the baby of the right wing party while the Millenium Line being the baby of the left wing party. And even the head of Translink itself even goes against the sound urban planning of the GVRD and would rather have more sprawl and auto oriented development.

If and only if the Greater Vancouver area would for the life of me just do what is right and logical, then I would support it. But RAV at its current form, hell no! Millenium Line as Skytrain, **** that! Every rapid transit expansion in the GVRD in the past six years are a joke and I pity those poor people in places where these political trophies are not present and yet still have to pay for them.
I know that the MAX system is a success, but I was wondering what is the percentage of people who use transit in Portland?
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Old July 14th, 2005, 01:58 AM   #434
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Quote:
Again, bad city planning. Why would a region disperse its employment centers into areas not easily served by rapid transit? They should at least enforce the GVRD LRSP but with mayors like Doug McCallum, who happens to be chair of your precious Translink, tells the GVRD to **** off, builds office parks, big box stores and supports more freeways to service his sprawly citizenry, how can you possibly have a decent transit network that services all residents of the region?
It boils down to a comany's bottom line. Companies move offices from downtown to the 'burbs to reduce overhead. If they are forced to locate in a suburban subcentre, then it may be as expensive as downtown Vancouver. If that's the case, the 'burb is less attractive to the company and the 'burb may lose the corporate taxpayer. If all municipalities in the region may the cost of business so high by ALL forcing companies to locate in downtown locations - we'll lose even more companies to other cities.

That's the problem that the municipalities face - how to focus development in town centres when that increases costs for the businesses so much that it becomes uneconomical for them.

As for in street LRT versus exclusive right-of-way (tunnel) - you need to compete with the car to attract new riders. You're not going to do that if your rapid transit is less convenient or slower than the automobile.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 03:13 AM   #435
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As I have said, I think RAV should be LRT but tunnelled to KingEd as there would be no way of accomadating the liner but after that Cambie is a wide road down a low density corrido. There is no need nor justifaction for a tunnel all the way to Marine to serve single family homes.
The city has guaranteed that there will be no change in the density so there can be no development like MetroTown or Joyce.
If they did LRT they could also upgrade the current rail bridge over the Frazer to Richmond, yet more money saved.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 06:45 AM   #436
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@ officedweller,

Are companies allowed to build office parks on lands designated as ALR? If not, what exactly prevents them from doing so if they want to because its cheaper? Some kind of law that prevents them from doing so?

The reason why companies move to the suburbs is because the city of Vancouver make the suburbs more attractive. I can only assume that either the environment is not friendly to them through bad city planning or lack of available commercial development space or there must be some municipal government factor such as ridiculously high commercial taxes that make the cost of doing business in the city core extremly high and unattractive.

But if you were to enforce laws such as properly zoning commercial development only on or near rapid transit lines and make those areas more attractive to commercial development through incentives like tax breaks, they will set up where they will be serviced more efficiently. If bottom line in reducing overhead is the only factor, then what is stopping those companies from all moving their operations to Third World countries?

As far as at grade LRT being competitive with the car, if the LRT takes precedence over car traffic, it will be faster than the travelling time of the single occupancy vehicle. You don't need an expensive tunnel for that. The city of Vancouver just needs to make a choice, that is to make LRT the ultimate priority in the streets. In such cases, like in those numerous cross traffic intersections you mentioned, the light turns would green for the train while the train riders would wave bye bye to those poor saps stuck in their Acuras and BMWs idling by in front of the red light.

@ Haber

According to TriMet, the ratio of weekday ridership to the population of TriMet's service area is 24%.

http://www.trimet.org/inside/rankings.htm

To put in perspective, in page six, section 4-d of this recent Translink report, the 2004 Trip Diary Survey shows that an estimated 13.4% of GVRD residents used transit at least once during a typical weekday.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/boa...4tripdiary.pdf

Last edited by [email protected]; July 14th, 2005 at 06:52 AM.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 07:52 AM   #437
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Ssiguy2, The main factor in maintaining full grade-separation down Cambie is not existing density, but traffic. There's no huge change in traffic levels north or south of King Edward - it's heavy on both sides.

And remember, it's not always clear which option (elevated/tunnel/trench/at-grade) is cheaper - just take a look at the Richmond part of the line, where elevated was $90 million cheaper than at-grade. So how can you know for certain that there'd even be a significant cost-savings with an at-grade line?

Also, the operations cost of a fully grade-separated line is lower due to no need to deal with intersections, accidents, or even drivers with automation. Further, like officedweller says, the faster the line, the more riders it will attract. Couple those advantages with the efficiencies of adding real capacity, rather than replacing road capacity, and it seems you're only paying attention to the immediate capital cost.

As for the ridership differences Wally points to, how much of that can be attributed to the fareless square?
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Old July 14th, 2005, 08:01 AM   #438
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great pics
is that taken on Granville Street???
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Old July 14th, 2005, 08:06 AM   #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shangri_la
great pics
is that taken on Granville Street???
yep. Taken on Broadway and Granville at the Chapters bus station.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 08:30 AM   #440
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^ Once again, I am proven right by the attitudes of these Vancouver forumers who think their transit system is so perfect, if there is another that is proven by hard data that is better, it MUST be some other crazy factor such as a fareless square. No amount of logic, sound urban planning, justifiable argument could ever convince such a forumer since they think that their city is so perfect because they just happen to live in it...

The fareless square is a result of excellent urban planning and payment for such a square makes sense in Portland. Afterall, our payroll taxes pay for TriMet and given that the fareless square is a location of high employment, its just fair that people in that area get a free ride since they have paid their share of the transit cost. But when it comes to RAV, most people of the GVRD lives and work outside the city of Vancouver and yet it is those very same people that would pay for the minority who are lucky enough to live in the Westside of Vancouver and have the political capital to demand a tunnel while the rest of the region suffers total gridlock and indecent transit.

The reason why at grade at Richmond is cheaper is because they needed a special hybrid train to adapt to the rest of the line, which has to be automated and tunneled. If the whole line uses conventional LRT technology, it would be much cheaper. Your argument goes beyond logic, zonie.

Faster lines do not necessarily attract the most riders. Other factors does so like accessibility, the destinations and its ability to extend its reach to more people. Why is it that the at grade C-Train carries just or more riders than Greater Vancouver's fully grade seperated Skytrain? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Calgary has a huge employment center in the core and along its route and covers most if not all of the city while Vancouver's employment center is spreadout it areas not easily accessible by Skytrain and does not cover all regions of the GVRD now and forever?
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