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Old July 17th, 2005, 09:17 PM   #481
ssiguy2
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Again, it is NOT that they are spending that much money on transit but rather RAV.

If you would have polled people if they wanted $1.72 bil for just RAV subway or the following for the same amount of money you would have gotten a very different response:

$900mil for LRT RAV which would still allow for a downtown subway,
$250mil to add 100 ARTICULATED SkyTrain cars mostly for the EXPO line so all trains
could have 2 articulated cars and not one and would allow all the 4 car MK1 trains to have 6 cars,
$100 mil to expand the SkyTrain depot
$100 mil to add 200 new buses
$50 for bus depot expansion
$150mil for CommuterRail to the Fraser Valley {bassed on WCE costs, same due to inflation but no need to spend money on the important and already built WaterfrontStation................. which could also have a station at the all important Broadway/Commericial SkyTrain Expo/Millenium Interchange,
$20mil to purchase 40 new CommuterBuses from northern Surrey/Langley to take HOV to Lougheed and then Broadway/Commercial and Downtown,
$25mil for a new Seabus
$50mil for FalseCreek/Gastown/Downtown/EnglishBay LRT & LRT car aquisition,

All this comes in at $1.735bil just $15mil more for RAV subway and yet INCLUDES RAV.
Also by purchasing all of these it also means it will free up lots of money later for the SkyTrain expansion to Cambie.

If you put it in those terms I think your RAV study results would have been VERY VERY different.
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Old July 17th, 2005, 09:38 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
Again, it is NOT that they are spending that much money on transit but rather RAV.

If you would have polled people if they wanted $1.72 bil for just RAV subway or the following for the same amount of money you would have gotten a very different response:

$900mil for LRT RAV which would still allow for a downtown subway,
$250mil to add 100 ARTICULATED SkyTrain cars mostly for the EXPO line so all trains
could have 2 articulated cars and not one and would allow all the 4 car MK1 trains to have 6 cars,
$100 mil to expand the SkyTrain depot
$100 mil to add 200 new buses
$50 for bus depot expansion
$150mil for CommuterRail to the Fraser Valley {bassed on WCE costs, same due to inflation but no need to spend money on the important and already built WaterfrontStation................. which could also have a station at the all important Broadway/Commericial SkyTrain Expo/Millenium Interchange,
$20mil to purchase 40 new CommuterBuses from northern Surrey/Langley to take HOV to Lougheed and then Broadway/Commercial and Downtown,
$25mil for a new Seabus
$50mil for FalseCreek/Gastown/Downtown/EnglishBay LRT & LRT car aquisition,

All this comes in at $1.735bil just $15mil more for RAV subway and yet INCLUDES RAV.
Also by purchasing all of these it also means it will free up lots of money later for the SkyTrain expansion to Cambie.

If you put it in those terms I think your RAV study results would have been VERY VERY different.
and where would the funding come from? $750 mil is coming from the feds/airport and $400 million is coming from the provincial government. That is $1.15 billion and that money will only be going towards RAV or it is nothing. The province and the airport would put their money back in the bank. The federal contribution would be dubbed down to $300 million and it would instead likely go towards the interior instead of the GVRD.

This leaves us with $570 million. $300 million will be coming from the private sector and that would be gone.

What do we have left then? $370 million from Translink. It can hardly buy all the things you proposed. Maybe some streetcars, buses, new SkyTrain cars OR enough to make the Coquitlam Line a 13 minute ride or a 23 minute ride.

$1.72 billion (likely $1.78 billion in a few weeks as Translink is likely to approve dual tracks and turnstiles) is whats on the table ONLY for RAV, not general infrastructural improvements. Its either RAV or pocket change.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 12:30 AM   #483
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^ I agree. The GVRD and Translink has no access to the cashcow (income taxes & sales taxes) like US cities do, and instead they have to rely on Property taxes and beg for government handouts in order to fund for transit improvements+expansions. Of course, politics come into play, and Translink has to make do with whatever they can to receive maximum funding. Similiar situations are playing out in Toronto and all across the country...

For one, why Toronto's YorkU line gets first dibs into the provincial coffers is beyond me. (aside from political reasons)
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Old July 18th, 2005, 02:40 AM   #484
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RAV would still get prov/fed/YVR cost sharing.
Commuter rail as well from the feds/ province as rail based.
SkyTrain cars would get fed help due to being Bombardier as well as SkyTrain Centre.

I do understand what you are referring to but they could get the funding if they tried especially from the province.
As stated earlier, someone wants a new BMW instead of a '93 Jetta but remember they seat the same number of people but with the difference you could buy 5 more of those Jettas.
Calgary decided to have Jettas and it has turned into a BMW system at Chevy prices.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 02:49 AM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
RAV would still get prov/fed/YVR cost sharing.
Commuter rail as well from the feds/ province as rail based.
SkyTrain cars would get fed help due to being Bombardier as well as SkyTrain Centre.

I do understand what you are referring to but they could get the funding if they tried especially from the province.
As stated earlier, someone wants a new BMW instead of a '93 Jetta but remember they seat the same number of people but with the difference you could buy 5 more of those Jettas.
Calgary decided to have Jettas and it has turned into a BMW system at Chevy prices.
However, the province & Ottawa does want a showcase line when 2010 rolls by, and will likely take away the money to influence Translink to change its mind. Falcon did it once before to get RAV rolling in the first place. What this all boils down to is dirty politics.

LRT unfortunately isn't really glitzy, and any additional traffic jams caused by the LRT wouldn't necessarily make them popular either.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 03:15 AM   #486
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I don't see what the big deal is. People in this city want the Canada Line and they want it underground. We don't want LRT, we aren't getting LRT and if you want LRT in your city then fine. You can have it, it's all yours. We aren't Calgary and we sure the hell ain't Portland. Meanwhile we will be enjoying are commute to work underground, quickly, efficiently and out of traffic for decades to come. This is a fact and it's going to happen..thank god!
And this whole "creme de la creme" rubbish the past while is getting a bit old.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 04:52 AM   #487
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Well said Overground. This thing is going to be around for many years. A couple billion looks like a lot, but when you think about how long it should serve the city... It is proven technology that works for Vancouver. It is taking a long time, but eventually the bulk of Vancouver will be covered.

I'm not very familiar with the Calgary system. From photos I've seen, it basically looks like a bus that is on rails. Has anyone used both the Calgary LRT and Skytrain? How do they compare? I rode the Skytrain last night and can't see something be much better. The cars came very frequently - like every minute or two. Very quick and smooth ride.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 05:28 AM   #488
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Ok, so we've got 8 people who post in this topic and who are all from Vancouver who WANT RAV as it is verses 3 people who don't want the line as it is from god knows where. That really says something.


The feds won't put their money into the project unless it's something glamourous. The airport won't put money into the line unless the ride from point A to point B is no more than 25 minutes; LRT will be much longer than 25 minutes......and the province doesn't want LRT.


Calgary's Jetta may look like a BMW to you but it's no BMW to Vancouverites.




The Coquitlam Line SHOULD BE SKYTRAIN. It makes so much sense and yet the provincial government can't cough up some pocket change to make it SkyTrain. I fear that the commute time will be a deterrent for people using the line (23 minutes). With SkyTrain, you can travel it at just 13 minutes: it's a huge difference and people will use it because it's so quick. It's the same scenario as RAV.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 06:20 AM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
RAV would still get prov/fed/YVR cost sharing.
What basis do you have for this statement?

The public's maximum supported travel time from the airport is 25 minutes. And YVR's money, as Mr. X mentioned again, was contingent on that 25 minute maximum. And so was the federal government's, at least according to this Wikipedia article: "contributions by the national government and the airport authority were contingent on service times that such a system [LRT] would not have been able to achieve". With slower LRT, you'd lose the support of all three parties, and $750 million.

Also, how about your $900 million LRT claim? The KPMG report stated a $1.1-1.2 billion project cost, going down Arbutus! Certainly, you should see how LRT would be more expensive along the chosen route. I don't think $1.4-1.5 would be out of the question. $900 million?! Even NES LRT will cost $800 million!
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Old July 18th, 2005, 06:26 AM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
The Coquitlam Line SHOULD BE SKYTRAIN. It makes so much sense and yet the provincial government can't cough up some pocket change to make it SkyTrain. I fear that the commute time will be a deterrent for people using the line (23 minutes). With SkyTrain, you can travel it at just 13 minutes: it's a huge difference and people will use it because it's so quick. It's the same scenario as RAV.
I also hope that it would be skytrain... but Port Moody doesn't like it. Right now, I take the 169 from Coq. Stn to Braid, and it takes an average of 15 min during peak and can be as fast as 9 min at night. The LRT would take at least 17 min to get to Lougheed Town Ctr... Unless they use skytrain-LRT hybrid cars so no transfer at Lougheed, I don't think I'll take the LRT (since it is much slower), and I guess many would think the same too
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Old July 18th, 2005, 07:29 AM   #491
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Nice sideview of Vancouver from Skytrain..

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Old July 18th, 2005, 07:59 AM   #492
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Quote:
Also, how about your $900 million LRT claim? The KPMG report stated a $1.1-1.2 billion project cost, going down Arbutus! Certainly, you should see how LRT would be more expensive along the chosen route. I don't think $1.4-1.5 would be out of the question. $900 million?! Even NES LRT will cost $800 million!
Exactly! NES LRT is 11 km (2-3 km tunnel) and has 10 stations, RAV LRT is 19.5 km (at least 6 km tunnel) and has 18 stations and two bridges. The ratios don't add up. If Coquitlam is $800 million, RAV LRT will for sure be much much more especially if it already costs $1.1-1.2 billion just for Arbutus!



Quote:
I also hope that it would be skytrain... but Port Moody doesn't like it. Right now, I take the 169 from Coq. Stn to Braid, and it takes an average of 15 min during peak and can be as fast as 9 min at night. The LRT would take at least 17 min to get to Lougheed Town Ctr... Unless they use skytrain-LRT hybrid cars so no transfer at Lougheed, I don't think I'll take the LRT (since it is much slower), and I guess many would think the same too
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Coquitlam Line project will hit any snags. I don't see it becoming SkyTrain unless something very dramatic happens. Coquitlam's city council unaminously wanted SkyTrain, but the mayor is the only person that stands in their way to speaking to Translink's board of directors. The councillors also asked for more money for NES from the Ministry of Transportation, they didn't get a reply for months and that was a polite 'no' from Falcon.


nice picture RT!
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


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Old July 18th, 2005, 08:10 AM   #493
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Regarding another issue, the Millenium Line SkyTrain extension to UBC, it should be underground SkyTrain to Arbutus so there can be a major transportation hub at Arbutus for bus, rapid bus, SkyTrain, and the future Arbutus corridor streetcar. From Arbutus, it should be rapid bus from Arbutus to UBC. I'm not sure if there's enough ridership (and capital funds) to build a subway from the existing Millenium Line all the way to UBC.

What the city plans:


With this plan made in 2000, they claim it will have 124,000-150,000 daily riders. The cost ($710 million) is outdated.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 18th, 2005, 08:11 AM   #494
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B-Line Stop

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Old July 18th, 2005, 08:15 AM   #495
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@ mr X, I noticed your latest posts are usually "exactly" and basically just taking other people's opinions and pretending its your own. I was absolutely correct to say that you simply don't know anything about the issue, which is no surprise given that you are just some bored 12 year old rich kid who wants both RAV and the Coquitlam Line as a means to joy ride.

And if you really want Coquitlam Line to be Skytrain, well, let me see. If you make RAV Sky-train, then whatever surplus money for it would be used to upgrade the Coquitlam Line into Skytrain. But then again, you don't really give a damn about the Northeast given that all you care about is your wealthy neighborhood of Point Grey.

And your wish the Coquitlam Line would hit snags is sick! Why would you want to deny a segment of your population decent rapid transit. Its not like the province would ever give funding for a Skytrain system to Coquitlam so why would you want to deny them the next best thing? Will you please stop thinking about yourself!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
Regarding another issue, the Millenium Line SkyTrain extension to UBC, it should be underground SkyTrain to Arbutus so there can be a major transportation hub at Arbutus for bus, rapid bus, SkyTrain, and the future Arbutus corridor streetcar. From Arbutus, it should be rapid bus from Arbutus to UBC. I'm not sure if there's enough ridership (and capital funds) to build a subway from the existing Millenium Line all the way to UBC.

What the city plans:


With this plan made in 2000, they claim it will have 124,000-150,000 daily riders. The cost ($710 million) is outdated.
Oh sure, when another rapid transit proposal comes to the Westside again, and this time straight to your neighborhood, it must be underground....SCREW THAT!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zonie
Looks like someone's running out of straws to grasp at.

I suggest you have a look at some of the Consultation & Public Survey Reports to see just how high the level of support for the Canada Line is. We're talking 79% of all Lower Mainlanders (mentioning a $1.5-1.7 billion shared project cost), and 81-90% of those in Vancouver & Richmond, depending on the question's phrasing. That's with Synovate-conducted, 500-person sample, random telephone surveys, plus further oversamples, for a 4.4% margin of error at a 95% confidence level.

Also, see how few people (<25%) in all the Lower Mainland support at-grade for this route, while levels of elevated & underground support are very close. And by far the most important aspect of using the Canada Line in the public's eye is speed - it has to be no more than 25 minutes from the Airport to Downtown and 30 minutes from Richmond Centre to Downtown. According to the other report I referred to before, it's unlikely LRT could manage these.

This line in its chosen form is very strongly supported throughout the entire region. It would be a tremendous waste of money to hold a GVRD-wide referendum!
Well, why is this not in a referendum then? You don't exactly let Ipsos Reid choose who your Prime Minister is, now do you? RAVCOs claim of public support is flawed for it never really officially asked the public in a fair democratic process. Surveys can be skewed so responses would be in favour of the line. Only a GVRD wide referendum would truly show if there is true support for the line at its current form. And if the public truly wants it as you claimed, then what is stopping them from initiating the referendum. As far as I know, the only waste of money is the tunneling requirement imposed by mr X and the creme de la creme...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overground
I don't see what the big deal is. People in this city want the Canada Line and they want it underground. We don't want LRT, we aren't getting LRT and if you want LRT in your city then fine. You can have it, it's all yours. We aren't Calgary and we sure the hell ain't Portland. Meanwhile we will be enjoying are commute to work underground, quickly, efficiently and out of traffic for decades to come. This is a fact and it's going to happen..thank god!
And this whole "creme de la creme" rubbish the past while is getting a bit old.
The creme de la creme is the sole reason why RAV is underground. They are the reason why its tunneled while other parts of the GVRD have to contend with an elevated system. These people think they are hollier than the rest of the people in the GVRD and frankly, its sickening! And btw, Calgary and Portland has way better transit systems than the GVRD for our rapid transit systems give almost all our residents access as oppose to just a select lucky few in Vancouver, Burnaby, New West Richmond and North Surrey (there are 21 cities in the GVRD I believe).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2

As stated earlier, someone wants a new BMW instead of a '93 Jetta but remember they seat the same number of people but with the difference you could buy 5 more of those Jettas.
Calgary decided to have Jettas and it has turned into a BMW system at Chevy prices.
Your da man, ssiguy2!!!!

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Old July 18th, 2005, 08:47 AM   #496
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Interestingly, one of the factors mentioned in the NE Sector rapid transit studies is that the new NE line should not canibalize traffic from the WestCoast Express. I think that's one of the reasons why Translink favoured LRT - so that WCE would still be significantly faster. (Notwithsthanding that WCE is only a rush hours service).

BTW - the latest estimate for Seattle's LRT extension north to Northgate is over US$3 billion for 8 miles of line in tunnel. LRT isn't always cheap.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 09:15 AM   #497
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Quote:
@ mr X, I noticed your latest posts are usually "exactly" and basically just taking other people's opinions and pretending its your own. I was absolutely correct to say that you simply don't know anything about the issue, which is no surprise given that you are just some bored 12 year old rich kid who wants both RAV and the Coquitlam Line as a means to joy ride.
Saying that over and over again doesn't make it so. These opinions have always been my own and it's not like this has been the first time ever that I've said these things, everything I have said here I have said before many times already. If anything, you just can't find a better excuse than the same old "12 year old creme de la creme who wants both RAV and the Coq. Line as a means to joy ride".......get a life loser, btw you don't even live in Vancouver anymore!



Quote:
And if you really want Coquitlam Line to be Skytrain, well, let me see. If you make RAV Sky-train, then whatever surplus money for it would be used to upgrade the Coquitlam Line into Skytrain. But then again, you don't really give a damn about the Northeast given that all you care about is your wealthy neighborhood of Point Grey.
I've always said I wanted less tunnel on RAV, I've stressed that enough already. But your paranoia seems to ignore it. Have you really lived in Vancouver?....because West Point Grey is 10 km from where the RAV Line is built.




Quote:
And your wish the Coquitlam Line would hit snags is sick! Why would you want to deny a segment of your population decent rapid transit. Its not like the province would ever give funding for a Skytrain system to Coquitlam so why would you want to deny them the next best thing? Will you please stop thinking about yourself!
I want rapid transit in this part of the region, and I want to see the region build it right. An additional $200 million will make it all the difference between a rapid 13 minute ride or a slow 23 minute ride.




Quote:
Oh sure, when another rapid transit proposal comes to the Westside again, and this time straight to your neighborhood, it must be underground....SCREW THAT!!!!
and EVERY VANCOUVERITE HERE WOULD AGREE THAT SKYTRAIN TO ARBUTUS NEEDS TO BE UNDERGROUND, NOT BECAUSE IT'S IN THE WESTSIDE BUT BECAUSE THIS IS BEING BUILT AT ONE OF THE DENSEST AND MOST BUSIEST CORRIDORS IN THE WHOLE REGION!




Quote:
As far as I know, the only waste of money is the tunneling requirement imposed by mr X and the creme de la creme...
I love it, the paranoia of me wanting everything tunnelled. Makes you look like a fool and a lunatic after the 20 or more posts of me proving that not true.

Your paranoia and hostility towards everybody who disagrees with you consumes you.





Quote:
Interestingly, one of the factors mentioned in the NE Sector rapid transit studies is that the new NE line should not canibalize traffic from the WestCoast Express. I think that's one of the reasons why Translink favoured LRT - so that WCE would still be significantly faster. (Notwithsthanding that WCE is only a rush hours service).
The WCE only serves 9,000 people and it already has efficiency problems???!!!!!!!!!!
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

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Old July 18th, 2005, 09:16 AM   #498
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Hey, is someone psychic? Richmond wants to relocate the Alderbridge station to Lansdowne.

RAV station relocation part of grand scheme

By Martin van den Hemel
Staff Reporter
Jul 16 2005

City hall wants Alderbridge stop shifted to Lansdowne

City hall wants one of its Richmond-Airport-Vancouver rapid transit stations relocated so that it will fit in with a vision to make Lansdowne Road a greenway connecting the Olympic oval and the Garden City lands.
On Monday, council agreed with a staff recommendation that refers to a request that RAV Project Management Ltd make the alteration.
As it stands now, the RAV plan is to build one of five Richmond stations at the corner of No. 3 Road and Alderbridge Way. The others would be located at Bridgeport Road, Capstan Way, Cambie Road and Saba Road.
But since the city has its eyes set on Lansdowne becoming a prime pedestrian and cycling thoroughfare between the $155 million long-track speed skating facility and the Garden City lands, which is up for development, making the switch makes sense.
The reason is that Lansdowne is going to become a major pedestrian/cycling greenway. We plan to push Lansdowne all the way through to link with the Oval site, the RAV line and of course the Garden City Lands," said City of Richmond spokesperson Ted Townsend.
And having the station closer to Lansdowne will also improve access not only to those major destinations but also Kwantlen."
Townsend said TransLink is apparently looking at extending the U-Pass system to Kwantlen.
They've had great success with ridership spiking at other post-secondary institutions where that's been introduced."
Cactus Club owner Jim Stewart said this is the first he's heard of this plan to build a RAV station near his business.
It could potentially be a good thing," he said of the potential increase in customer traffic.
However, the prospect of a station towering over his restaurant isn't that appealling.
Lansdowne Centre general manager Lorelei Guthrie said that while parking problems may result from the arrival of the RAV line, the benefits of the system far outweigh the downside.
In the long term, it's a good thing."
Naina Sloan, spokesperson for RAVCo, the TransLink subsidiary tasked with managing the construction of the $1.7 billion line, said RAVCo still hadn't received a formal request for the change in station locations.
But she said the relocation is minor.
It's a refinement. It's not a huge change."
It could have capital cost implications however, she said.
Whether or not the shift is possible, we still don't know."
The city has also suggested names for all five station, all of which would match the street location save for the Saba Road station. It should be called Brighouse station, the city suggested.
Since the city isn't in favour of using sponsorship and commercial names for local station names, RAV management will be advised of that. The city also wants input into the naming of the Sea Island stations on the arm of the line heading to the airport.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 09:31 AM   #499
crazyjoeda
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Wait, are there people in this thread that think RAV should be an LRT? I can see why you might think having in underground instead of elevated is a waste, but an LRT would be a total waste. We all ready have rapid bus service on what will be come RAV an LRT is only small step up, why build an LRT just to tear it down and build RAV for 2.5billion 15 years later?

I would have prefered Skytrain for the NE sector line (I think its better value) but that area is low enough density that most of the line will be grade seperated.


BTW that is a dope shot RT, cant wait till the Shangir-la and the other new skyscrapers are done.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 09:50 AM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Well, why is this not in a referendum then? You don't exactly let Ipsos Reid choose who your Prime Minister is, now do you? RAVCOs claim of public support is flawed for it never really officially asked the public in a fair democratic process. Surveys can be skewed so responses would be in favour of the line.
I see you have no faith in statistics, but even as someone with just a tiny bit of statistics background, let me tell you that a 30-40% margin of support on separate samples of that size (conducted roughly one year apart) is not going to suddenly vanish when put to a referendum - no way! Holding one would be an absolutely needless waste of millions.

Also note that questions were posed in a number of different ways to reduce skewed results. Not to mention, several other formal/informal polls conducted by a number of different groups also asked the question at many points in time in a whole variety of ways, and I don't think I've ever seen one that hasn't shown strong support.
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