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Old December 2nd, 2005, 08:31 AM   #701
CeC
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The only city in Canada is Calgary, period!
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 08:32 AM   #702
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Okay. So it seems "Skytrain" technology is used in non-backbone lines in Kuala Lumpur, New York and Toronto. So to quote this statement again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by j4893k
Actually many large cities also choose skytrain technology. The technology also can be modified to accompany larger amounts of passengers and the fact that it was developed by Ontarionians for Ontarionians is irrelevant.
...and ask a follow up question, are there "many" additional cities that uses this technology?

The reason why I'm asking is I notice Vancouver forumers in general seem to imply that this "Skytrain" is some kind of miracle technology that is embraced by hundreds of cities around the world and yet it seems that aside from the Greater Vancouver area, its use is very limited to spur lines in very few cities, at least one realizing it was a mistake. It is hardly something to brag about.

So whatever those Vancouver forumers are smoking, I really want to have some please....
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 08:35 AM   #703
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Ok, I'm kiddin. Hey man, those two new lines in Vancouver look great. Calgary needs to follow your steps. This city is literally bursting at its seams, the traffic is horrible and our current mass transit system just doesn't cut it. In any case, congrats to Vancouver for having such a progresive approach to city planning and transportation.
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 08:39 AM   #704
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Why is there a difference in capacity? Are the trains smaller? Shouldn't it be the same as a subway? Maybe the skytrain just needs to expand the stations so that they can handle more wagons, other than that, I don't really see a difference between a skytrain and a subway. With the GoTrain yeah...

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Old December 2nd, 2005, 09:11 AM   #705
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Yea, the trains are smaller. Vancouver is smaller... You can expand the platforms, add more cars if necessary.

"I notice Vancouver forumers in general seem to imply that this "Skytrain" is some kind of miracle technology that is embraced by hundreds of cities around the world" <<< Ok. Name them. If you can't name more that a few Vancouver forumers saying this, then you're either full of shit or smoking something yourself. Sorry for swearing, but good golly man!
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 09:38 AM   #706
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Linear induction motors on rapid transit lines are not unique to Bombardier's Skytrain technology. Hitachi also has a LIM metro system:

http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products..._features.html

THis is from the Hitachi site. The same would apply to the Bombardier cars.

The linear motor used in the Linear Metro system has a thin rectangular body and requires no reduction gear, which is necessary for rotary motor railcars. This lowers the floor height above the rail as compared with conventional rotary motor railcars. When the height of railcar is reduced by approximately 50 cm, the cross-sectional area of tunnels can be reduced to a large extent. In addition, thanks to the non-adhesion drive system, the Linear Metro car can travel on grades as steep as around 8%; around 3.5% is the limit for conventional rotary motor railcars. The capability of running on steep grades expands the degree of freedom in route planning and sometimes reduces tunnel length, contributing to a reduction of construction costs.

BTW, the Millennium Line was built without Federal funding, and here's the cost breakdown for the costs of the Canada Line:

Government Funding
Federal Government: $419 M
Provincial Government: $235 M
Translink: $321 M (up from $300 due to added bike path on bridge and more double track)
YVR Airport Authority: $245 M
City of Vancouver: $27M (one future station that was accelerated)
Total Government Funding: $1.247 billion

Private Sector Funding
The Bank of Ireland, Société Générale and Norddeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale: $600 M (through debt financing)
InTransitBC: $120 M
(SNC-Lavalin, the British Columbia Investment Management Corp. and Quebec's Caisee de dépôt: $40 M each)
Total Private Funding: $720 M

Toronto has way more passengers than Vancouver - so I don't see why a PPP can't get going over there.
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 09:40 AM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJoe
Yes they are used but rarely as the backbone to a system. KL is probably similar to the Toronto situation, it was tacked on as somewhat of a novelty item, proved to be crap and is regarded as a mistake.
Not sure that's true about KL, DrJ. ART is used for a backbone 29km line that carries around 170k passengers/day. I think the complaints are more integration with other transit modes and inter-line transfers. But I'm told that had more to do with politics in terms of station locations, etc...
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 09:42 AM   #708
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I think KL had some disputes about the 3 differently owned lines and their transfer stations are not conveniently located.
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 09:52 AM   #709
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exactly, officedweller. Hence if people want to transfer from one line to another, they have to go out of one station and hike to a different station. Has nothing to do with the technology...
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 10:27 AM   #710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73
Ok. Name them. If you can't name more that a few Vancouver forumers saying this, then you're either full of shit or smoking something yourself. Sorry for swearing, but good golly man!
Don't waste your time arguing with the same guy who claimed that the RAV line should have utilized streetcar LRT technology and that the only reason the RAV line goes underground is due to "creme de la creme" that lives on cambie street. Furthemore, he claims that he has lived in Vancouver, and yet he is sticking to his story that only the top rich people in Vancouver decide to live by one of the busiest roads in the city.

Last edited by zivan56; December 2nd, 2005 at 10:37 AM.
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 01:49 PM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
...
I'm curious. Exactly how many large cities in the world actually uses "Skytrain" technology?
The list of transit lines that use Bombardier's LIM system is as follows:

Detroit People Mover
Toronto Scarborough Line
Vancouver Expo Line
Vancouver Millennium Line
Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya (Putra) Line
New York JFK Airtrain
Seoul Yong-In Line

As one other member of this forum noted, Hitachi also markets LIM powered trains. I believe that Hitachi LIM powered trains are being used on subway lines in Osaka and Tokyo.

The great advantage of LIM is that control of the vehicle is not dependent on traction at the wheels. The train is propelled forward by the interaction of magnetic fields between magnetic coils on the bogies and reaction plates in the rail bed. This has great advantages for automation. Presently, to the best of my knowledge, the only transit systems that are fully automated without any staff onboard the trains are those that feature either rubber tires or LIM propulsion. Of course, this may change as automation technology improves.

Automated systems that feature steel wheels and conventional rotary electric motors all have at least human monitors onboard riding in the passenger compartments. This is true of the London Docklands Light Railway, the Copenhagen Metro, and the Singapore Northeast Line. It is not clear if this will be true of the new Vancouver Canada Line. The wheel slip concern is real as evidenced by the slides below. (My apologies to those who have already seen these slides on another thread.)







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Old December 2nd, 2005, 02:36 PM   #712
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Quote:
As for anything new in the past 15 years, it doesn't make up for the 119 years in between.
Please, elaborate. What exactly has the government NOT done?
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 05:25 PM   #713
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I'm not SkyTrains biggest fan but it has proven itself to be reliable, fast, and safe. Let's not confuse the RAV line with the technology itself. It has good capacity if the trains are long enough just like a subway.

BTW CeC................Calgary has an EXCELLENT Lrt system and was built at a third the cost of SkyTrain. It is Calgary that has the better urban planning than Vancouver. Vancouver was the last major city in Canada to get rapid transit.
The CTrain carries as many passengers as the SkyTrain but was a hell of a lot cheaper, has less length and serves a population 40% of Vancouver's.

Vancouver should have built a CTrain in the first place due to its affordability and the numbers prove it.
CTrain has proven itself to be far more cost effective than SkyTrain. This helped along especially due to Calgary having more inner city stations unlike Vancouver which has far fewer stations than Burnaby.
Translink should be going to Calgary to see how to build an cost effective rapid transit system at an affordable price NOT the other way around.
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 10:05 PM   #714
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It's great that vancouver is building two new rapid transit lines. However, there is still a lot of work to be done after that. Millenium Line extension is probably the next priority, then I would say a line along the northshore
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Old December 3rd, 2005, 12:22 AM   #715
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Just a few quick facts about the new lines. The "Canada Line's" (that name was a funding requirement..blah...) trains/skytrains whatever, will be different than the ones running on the Expo and Millenium lines...I don't know how, but I remember reading that the trains will be none transferable. As far the the green line goes, its two possible names (after much public consultations) are the Spirit Line or Evergreen Line . That was appearently the best possible names suggested. Its not Skytrain tech, that option was initally considered, but Port Moody residents decided they didn't want a monolith cutting through the "TownCenter" (its a long strip mall... I know, I live here).

Also, I don't know how clear the pictures are about the station locations, but they look like they will be very close together. Anyone else notice this?
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Old December 3rd, 2005, 04:37 PM   #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewcs
As far the the green line goes, its two possible names (after much public consultations) are the Spirit Line or Evergreen Line . That was appearently the best possible names suggested.
I remember suggesting Pacific Line for the Coquitlam LRT. I wonder why they didn't like it.
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Old December 3rd, 2005, 09:25 PM   #717
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Great projects. I'm surprised it will only be $1.9B for the 19km Canada line. It's a lot cheaper than the 6km Sheppard line ($1B). I wonder why that is. What's the expansion of the Coquitlam Line going to be (to the SE)? And why is the YVR Terminal 3 station being deferred?

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Old December 3rd, 2005, 11:06 PM   #718
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^ the Coquitlam Line (11 km, 10 stations) will be LRT, a few hundred metres will be elevated, about 2 km will be tunnel, and the rest at-grade ........ at $800 million (but probably $1.1 billion).

YVR 3 has been deffered because there's no need for it right now. it would be built in the middle of nowhere.
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Old December 4th, 2005, 01:17 AM   #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
Linear induction motors on rapid transit lines are not unique to Bombardier's Skytrain technology. Hitachi also has a LIM metro system:

http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products..._features.html
I recall riding such a line in Osaka, it had the same hum you get with skytrain and there was a very low pantograph above the car. It appeared that it may have been a lower voltage perhaps for the cars lighting. The tunnel sections appeared to have been precast, even the larger sections which made up the stations.

I do like the idea of a smaller profile to reduce tunneling costs and have wondered if a Talgo metro has ever been considered, it would seem to lend it self to LIM propulsion?

Seattle is building an LRT system now that will be unique (at least in the USA) in that it uses 1500 VDC. As a result the tunnel sections have a much larger diameter and some of the tunneled sections have been very expensive. I think the Skytrain system would have allowed for lower tunneling costs and more lines to be afforded.
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Old December 4th, 2005, 02:03 AM   #720
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Interesting. The Hitachi car in the pic does look like it has a pantograph. I expect that the tunnel segments for our bored tunnel and for Seattle's bored tunnel will be precast segments. I think they just slip them in around teh circumference as the tunnel boring machine progresses.

Samson - I have no clue why the Spadina extension is so expensive. The southeast route was an option for the Coquitlam LRT. The line will be on the northeast route.
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