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Old January 7th, 2006, 07:39 AM   #761
ailiton
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I took the train to VCC today. VCC is actually like 2 blocks away from the station. One more failure for the M-Line.
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Old January 7th, 2006, 10:17 AM   #762
zivan56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ailiton
I took the train to VCC today. VCC is actually like 2 blocks away from the station. One more failure for the M-Line.
How is it a failure? Thats like saying the Production Way/University station is a failure because it is not on Burnaby Mountain. Wait untill more UBC students find out about the station (and the fact that they dont have to wait for 10 busses to get packed into it) ,and it will be quite busy in the mornings.
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Old January 7th, 2006, 10:30 AM   #763
ailiton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zivan56
How is it a failure? Thats like saying the Production Way/University station is a failure because it is not on Burnaby Mountain. Wait untill more UBC students find out about the station (and the fact that they dont have to wait for 10 busses to get packed into it) ,and it will be quite busy in the mornings.
It's a failure because the station itself (as well as other M-Line stations) does not attract patronage. VCC station is supposed to serve the VCC area, not UBC. This is why Translink is so screwed up because they built a dozen of stations in the middle of nowhere and then set up new bus routes to connect nowhere to somewhere. Translink should learn that they should only build railways connecting somewhere to somewhere, not nowhere to nowhere.
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Old January 7th, 2006, 10:48 AM   #764
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Well, maybe I'm not look close enough, but when I was at the station today, I saw the "Vancouver Community College" sign directly across the street outside the station. I don't know how it would be 2 blocks. The distance between VCC-Clark Stn and Broadway is only about 300m (quite close to the average stop spacing for city bus routes), and the distance to get to the back of VCC will be even shorter - well within the walking distance.

[edit]Found this news release from VCC:
Quote:
Opening the VCC-Clark station - at Sixth Avenue and Keith Drive, just across the street and north of VCC's Broadway campus - is only part of TransLink's new service along the south corridor of False Creek.

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Old January 7th, 2006, 11:16 AM   #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname
just across the street
... from VCC's parking lot, but the line would've been a bit too zig-zaggy if it got any closer. Plus I guess eventually VCC or someone else might develop those lots.
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Old January 7th, 2006, 11:35 AM   #766
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Old January 8th, 2006, 12:29 AM   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ailiton
I took the train to VCC today. VCC is actually like 2 blocks away from the station. One more failure for the M-Line.
VCC's plan is to build on the empty parking lots near Great Northern Way. So the bulk of the new campus will actually be closer to the station. It is also intended to serve the False Creek Flats - i.e. QLT and the others in the area - which wouldn't happen with a station on Broadway.

It was the City of Vancouver which spearheaded the relocation of the stations from under Broadway to serve its pet project tech zone on the flats (primarily with the future Finning Station).

Here's the report:

*****************************

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/990727/RR1.HTM

ADMINISTRATION REPORT

Date: July 23, 1999
Author/Local: J.Bird/6653

W. Pledger/7346

RTS No. 914
CC File No. 5559

Council: July 27, 1999


TO: Vancouver City Council

FROM: Manager - Rapid Transit Project, in consultation with the General Manager of Engineering Services and the Director of Central Area Planning

SUBJECT: SkyTrain Alignment West of Commercial Drive

RECOMMENDATION

A. THAT in response to the Negotiator's Agreement, Council prefers in principle the North Alignment from the Commercial station through the Grandview Cut to the north side of Vancouver Community College as shown generally in Appendix A.

B. THAT Council's preference in RECOMMENDATION A assumes the SkyTrain alignment will continue from the station on the north side of VCC, through the Finning site to a second station on the Finning site, to a tunnel portal in the vicinity of Prince Edward Street, and continue to an underground station in the vicinity of Main and Broadway as shown in Appendix A-1 (the "Finning to Main Extension").

C. THAT RECOMMENDATION A is conditional upon Rapid Transit Project2000 by September 30 , 1999 unless the City agrees to an extension to that date:

1. completing the preliminary engineering work and finalizing the cost estimates for the Finning to Main Extension.

2. achieving an agreement with Finning and Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway, with input from the City of Vancouver, as to the precise alignment and related design issues for the Finning to Main Extension.

3. receiving Provincial approval to fund the Finning to Main Extension.

4. engaging in a public consultation process as to the design implications of the North Alignment including the segment in the Grandview Cut and the Finning to Main Extension.

5. achieving agreement with TransLink on this issue and other regional issues contemplated in the Negotiator's Agreement,

and THAT the Manager, Rapid Transit be directed to seek a memorandum of understanding with Rapid Transit Project2000 to that effect, and THAT the City Manager be authorized to enter into such memorandum.

D. THAT the Manager, Rapid Transit, in consultation with the Manager of Engineering Services and the Director of Central Area Planning, report back to Council if the items set out in RECOMMENDATION C are not likely to be achieved by September 30, 1999.

E. THAT if the items set out in RECOMMENDATION C are not achieved, and it appears from the advice of staff as set out in RECOMMENDATION D that Council's assumption in expressing its preference is incorrect, then Council prefers the South Alignment, under Broadway to VCC, as shown in Appendix A.

F. THAT Council acknowledge that the issue of the North Alignment, particularly the Finning to Main Extension, is one of several interrelated regional issues contemplated by the Negotiator's Agreement and that several of those issues, including the station at Lougheed Mall, require a level of certainty similar to that contemplated in RECOMMENDATION C.

G. THAT the City supports TransLink in its efforts to achieve early certainty around the issues contemplated in the Negotiators Agreement, and requests TransLink to incorporate RECOMMENDATION C into its regional negotiations.

H. THAT while the results of the joint Phase 2 Study to determine a route, technology and a western terminus will not be available for Council's consideration until late fall of 1999, the Negotiator's Agreement provides for cost sharing of SkyTrain technology only, and therefore Council requests Rapid Transit Project2000 undertake the preliminary engineering work required to complete the cost estimates for SkyTrain technology underground from a station in the vicinity of Main and Broadway to Arbutus Street in order that a timely decision can be made as to and end point.

GENERAL MANAGER'S COMMENTS

The General Manager of Engineering Services and the Director of Central Area Planning recommend approval of Recommendations A to H.

COUNCIL POLICY

Staff will work with the Province on planning for the Phase 1 SkyTrain route, alignment, station locations and station area planning.

PURPOSE

The purposes of this report are to:

1. recommend a SkyTrain alignment from the approved Commercial station location on the north bank of the Grandview Cut, immediately east of Commercial Drive, to an underground station in the vicinity of Main and Broadway via the Finning lands in the False Creek Flats.

2. compare the original SkyTrain alignment in a tunnel under Broadway with the alternative alignment via the Finning lands, between the two common points: starting at the new Commercial Station and ending at a terminus at Main (at Broadway), on the basis of land use, transportation, cost and other relevant criteria.

3. describe the recommended alignment in the context of the Negotiator's Agreement recently signed between TransLink and the Province and the joint Phase 2 Study.

BACKGROUND

The Provincial Government's presently approved western terminus for the Phase 1 SkyTrain base alignment is at Vancouver Community College (VCC) at Broadway and Glen Drive. The alignment from Commercial Drive to VCC is as follows: from the new station on the north side of the Grandview Cut at Commercial, the guideway crosses the Grandview Cut to the south side and enters a mined tunnel at approximately 8th Avenue, terminating at an underground station on the south side of VCC, shown as "VCC South" on Appendix A.

During the planning and design phase, the following issues arose:

1. A significant and expensive engineering challenge to design and construct the underground station at VCC over the large China Creek sewer, in poor soil conditions.

2. A concern by the public with safety and security at the proposed underground station at VCC and a potential increase in crime in the surrounding area.

In addition, City staff and the Rapid Transit Project2000 identified an opportunity for SkyTrain to act as a catalyst for development in the new I-3 zone in the False Creek Flats.

To address these issues, City staff and Rapid Transit Project2000 explored other alignment options. These options all continued west on the north side of the Grandview Cut passing underneath the Woodland Drive Bridge, crossing over the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway tracks, and passing under the Clark Drive Bridge. A number of workable options west of Clark Drive emerged, including routes on Great Northern Way and through the Finning lands, all returning to the vicinity of Broadway at Main.

In consultation with Finning, Rapid Transit Project2000 consultants selected one of the alignment options for further consideration by Council, TransLink and other stakeholders.
Concurrent with this work, on June 20, 1999 TransLink and the Province executed the "SkyTrain Negotiator's Agreement on Cost-Sharing and Construction of SkyTrain Extensions". The Agreement addresses SkyTrain extension in Vancouver in three segments: the segment from Boundary Road to Commercial Drive, the segment from Commercial Drive to VCC, and the segment west of VCC. For the segment from Commercial Drive to VCC, the Agreement provides that the City will have the opportunity to select its preferred alignment option, in consultation with TransLink and the Province, and that this decision will be made by July 31, 1999.

This report provides Council with the information necessary for Council to select its preferred alignment option, and describes the option in the context of the Negotiator's Agreement and the Phase 2 Study.

COMPARISON OF THE TWO ALIGNMENTS - TO MAIN UNDER BROADWAY OR VIA THE FINNING LANDS

In this report:

1. The alignment from Commercial Drive to Main Street at Broadway via the Finning lands is called the "North Alignment". The portion of the Northern Alignment from Commercial Drive to VCC is called "VCC North". The portion from VCC to Broadway at Main is called the "Finning to Main Extension".

2. The alignment from Commercial Drive to Main Street at Broadway via Broadway (underground) is called the "South Alignment". The portion of the Southern alignment from Commercial Drive to VCC is called "VCC South".

Rapid Transit Project2000 and City staff have completed a comparison of the North Alignment and the South Alignment, both of which are shown on Appendix A and described in detail on Appendix B.

From a land use and transportation planning perspective, the two alignments can only be compared in a meaningful way if they start at a common point (the new station at Commercial Drive, now in the design phase) and continue to a second common point (Broadway at Main Street). Moreover, for reasons outlined later in the report, there is no advantage in an alignment to a station at VCC north without making the assumption that it will continue further west to shape the new undeveloped I-3 zone in the False Creek Flats. From there, to achieve regional and City transportation and land use objectives, the alignment must return to the Broadway corridor, to extend transit, by whatever means, to serve Central Broadway. Similarly, there is no advantage in an alignment to a station at VCC south without making the assumption that it will be connected to transit by whatever means further west in the Broadway corridor to serve Central Broadway.

For these reasons, the detailed comparison set out in Appendix B compares alignments from Commercial to Main via the North Alignment and South Alignment.

Results of Comparison

On the basis of the above comparison, the North Alignment is superior to the South Alignment for the following reasons:

1. barring a significant land use policy change, a South Alignment under Broadway will primarily serve a relatively stable land use; the North alignment through the new I-3 zone in the False Creek Flats provides the City the opportunity to take advantage of the SkyTrain system to encourage and shape future, transit oriented development.

2. while on a strictly technical basis, ridership appears to be approximately the same on both alignments, the potential for an increase in ridership is likely greater on the North Alignment as the planned Finning and adjacent high tech industrial sites build out.

3. constructing the South Alignment under Broadway would be difficult and have significant impacts on VCC and the surrounding neighbourhoods and to bus, truck and general purpose traffic on Broadway.

4. the North Alignment through Finning will reduce the allocation of future conventional bus resources required to serve the Finning development and other development in the False Creek Flats.

5. based on the preliminary cost estimates provided by Rapid Transit Project2000, and recognizing that the design implications have yet to be resolved, the North Alignment appears to be marginally less expensive, but with an extra station at Finning.

PUBLIC PROCESS

Only part of the North Alignment has been discussed with the public. The route options presented to the public in the early open houses included options in the Cut to the north side of VCC. Generally, the public did not indicate a preference. Most of the comments related to safety and security in and around the VCC underground station and the potential for increased crime in the area, particularly near Queen Alexandra Elementary School at Broadway and Clark Drive.

The portion of the Northern Alignment west of VCC has not been the subject of a broad public consultation process. However, the Rapid Transit Project2000 and City staff have met with three key stakeholders: VCC, Finning and QuadraLogic PhotoTherapeutics.

VCC

Rapid Transit Project2000 met with the Director of Facilities of VCC in the fall and spring. In addition, the VCC Board of Directors considered the South Alignment in November 1998.

Rapid Transit Project2000 and the Manager, Rapid Transit met with the Vice President, Finance & Administration and the Vice President, Educational Support Services of VCC and reviewed the Northern Alignment with them. They commented favourably on the North Alignment, particularly with respect to the potential for expanding their facility to the parking lot near Great Northern Way on the north side of the existing buildings. They indicated that as between the North and South Alignments, the North Alignment better addresses the concerns of the Board raised at its November meeting. They noted that the first opportunity for the Director of Facilities to report to the Board would be September, but that they expected the report would be favourable. Rapid Transit Project2000 committed to working closely with a committee of the administration of VCC on the detailed design of the station.

Finning

Rapid Transit Project2000 and City staff have met with Finning and its consultants. Finning strongly supports rapid transit to the site. The end users envisioned for the development demand excellent public transit service. To that end, Finning sees a station as a key part of I-3 development, and particularly for the vision they and the City have developed.

Finning has indicated to Rapid Transit Project2000 that they will provide the right of way at no cost. However, Finning has concerns regarding the design of the alignment, particularly on the eastern end of the site. They have indicated that the only acceptable SkyTrain alignment is below the new finished grade on the Finning lands. City staff understand that the current preliminary design is consistent with Finning's objectives. However, Recommendation C provides that Council's preference in favour of the North Alignment is conditional upon Finning and Rapid Transit Project2000, with input from the City, addressing the City's and Finning's design concerns and achieving an agreement with Finning.

City staff and Rapid Transit Project2000 have identified that there may be an issue with BNSF regarding the BNSF land immediately to the east of the Finning land between the Grandview Cut and Finning. Rapid Transit Project2000 will have to make suitable arrangements with BNSF for the use of that land, which may involve track relocation.

Quadralogic PhotoTherapeutics (QLT)

QLT's new building is under construction on 2.3 acres formally owned by Finning at the eastern edge of the Finning property, just west of the Clark Drive Bridge. As proposed, the SkyTrain guideway would transition from an elevated guideway to an at grade guideway approximately opposite the QLT building. Though the discussions have not been as extensive as those with Finning, QLT's consultants have indicated that QLT supports SkyTrain on the BNSF land adjacent to their site. However, as with Finning, QLT has design concerns. Staff understand that Rapid Transit Project2000 will consult with QLT as to the guideway design.

THE IMPACT OF THE NORTH ALIGNMENT ON PHASE 1 LAND AND THE NEGOTIATOR'S AGREEMENT

The Province designed the phasing of the SkyTrain extension such that the terminus of Phase 1 is VCC. Anything west of VCC is part of Phase 2, and technically outside the scope and budget of Phase 1.

Generally speaking, all of the regional planning, and the City Transportation Plan support rapid transit on the Broadway Corridor. For the reasons outlined above, changing the alignment to leave the corridor, accessing the North side of VCC is in the interests of the City, but only on the assumption that the alignment continues west, to access and shape the new 1-3 zone in False Creek Flats and return to the Corridor. For that reason, City staff and TransLink have been attempting to achieve certainty from the Province that if the City supports the North Alignment, funding is in place to construct SkyTrain to the False Creek Flats, and to return to the Corridor in the vicinity of Main and Broadway. Depending on the outcome of the Phase 2 Study, the connection west to Central Broadway and to UBC, be it rapid bus, LRT or SkyTrain, will be on the Corridor, consistent with transportation planning policy.

Rapid Transit Project2000 supports the North Alignment, in part because it sees the opportunity to shape development, but also because on the basis of the preliminary cost estimates, the VCC North alignment is in the order of $50m less to construct than VCC South. Note that the cost saving applies to the segment from the new Commercial Drive station to VCC. If the alignment continues to Main at Broadway, the difference in cost between the North and South Alignments is not significant.

As of the date of this Report, Rapid Transit Project2000 does not have approval to continue the alignment west of VCC, as described. Recommendation C provides that Council's endorsement of an alignment that leaves the Broadway Corridor (thereby realizing considerable savings) is conditional upon resolution of a number of issues (including publicconsultation) - but the primary condition is the certainty that SkyTrain will reach the False Creek Flats (Finning lands) and return to the Corridor, thus achieving the City's objective for leaving the Corridor in the first place. Recommendation C also directs the Manager, Rapid Transit, to seek that certainty from the Province. RECOMMENDATION E provides that if this certainty is not available, Council does not endorse leaving the Broadway Corridor. Recommendation E directs the Manager, Rapid Transit and the Manager of Engineering Services and the Director of Central Area Planning to inform Council as to their progress in achieving that certainty.

The Negotiator's Agreement provides that construction of SkyTrain west of VCC will be cost shared 67% by the Province, and 33% by TransLink. The Province will only contribute if the technology is SkyTrain. As described earlier in this report, for the segment from Commercial Drive to VCC, the Agreement provides that the City will have the opportunity to select its preferred alignment option, in consultation with TransLink and the Province, and that this decision will be made by July 31, 1999. Cost savings achieved from Commercial Drive to VCC North may be applied to a western extension (if one is built) or to other parts of the system.

The Agreement also describes the need for the Province and TransLink to review and define the Lougheed Mall Station, and confirm the alignment and configuration. Like the North Alignment, this encroachment into what is technically Phase 2 of the SkyTrain extension may be a wise decision from a transportation and land use perspective. TransLink is facing similar uncertainty with the Lougheed Mall review in that Rapid Transit Project2000 does not have approval beyond the technical, somewhat artificial definition of Phase 1. Recommendations F and G recognize that given that TransLink has an agreement in place to address these issues, it is appropriate for the City and the other member municipalities of TransLink to work together to resolve these issues in a way that is consistent with the Negotiator's Agreement, and in the interests of the region as a whole. This may mean that the Province and TransLink, in the interests of sound planning, may need to revisit the definition of Phase 1 and Phase 2 to deal with the end point issues, so that each Phase makes sense on its own.

Finally, the City's joint Phase 2 Study to a western terminus is underway. The recommendations of the Consultant, BRW, will not be available until fall. However, the Negotiator's Agreement provides that the Province will only contribute if the technology is SkyTrain. In order for the City and TransLink to fully understand the financial aspects of their ultimate decision, it will be important to understand with some precision, the cost estimates to construct SkyTrain further west. RECOMMENDATION H requests Rapid Transit Project2000 to begin the preliminary engineering work necessary to achieve somecertainty around the cost estimates, so that the City and TransLink can make a fully informed decision on the basis of the Consultant's recommendations.

CONCLUSIONS

City staff have concluded that, on the assumption SkyTrain continues to the False Creek Flats and returns to the Broadway Corridor, and on the assumption the design concerns can be addressed, the North Alignment is preferable.

The issue is achieving certainty that the alignment will continue as assumed. Staff believe that the City will have the best chance of obtaining this certainty if this issue is resolved with the resolution of similar issues in the region through negotiations between TransLink and the Province as described in the Negotiator's Agreement.

- - - - -

Appendix B

Comparison of the North and South Alignments

Route Description

The two routes are shown in Appendix A.

The South Alignment is in tunnel from the new station in the Cut at Commercial Drive diagonally under various private properties to Broadway and Woodland Drive and continuing underground under Broadway (with an underground station at VCC) to an underground station at Main.

The North Alignment continues west on the north bank of the Cut, crosses over the BNSF tracks, under the Clark Drive Bridge and drops down to an elevated station north of VCC one block west of Clark at Keith before continuing down onto the Finning lands. Appendix A shows the plan view as well as the vertical profile of the guideway from the Commercial Station to Main Street including through the Finning lands. Within the Finning lands the alignment is in a boxed culvert (on the eastern half of the site it will be excavated with some fill to aid in the transition of grades, on the western portion of the site, fill will be used to raise the ground level of the Finning site so that the various new roads or development could be built on top of the boxed culvert) with a "below grade" station east of the extension of St. George Street. At the western end of the site, the alignment turns to the south; enters a tunnel portal on the north side of Great Northern Way at Prince Edward Street; climbs in a tunnel under Prince Edward Street to Broadway, and turns west to enter an underground station in the vicinity of Main/Kingsway/Broadway.

The North Alignment is about 560 metres longer than the South Alignment and has one extra station (Finning). It takes about 1.6 minutes longer (including station stops) to travel the North Alignment.

Cost

Based on the current estimates generated by Rapid Transit Project2000, staff understand the capital cost of the South Alignment is $282.4m and the capital cost of the North Alignment is $279.3m. However, staff have not independently verified these estimates. In addition, the estimates are preliminary, and will likely change once more detailed engineering and design work, particularly on the Finning development site, is complete.

Staff understand the total system-wide SkyTrain operating costs (to TransLink) of the North Alignment will increase to $53.5m. annually in 2003, $900,000 more than theSouth Alignment because of the additional length of the line and additional 2 vehicles. Again, these estimates are preliminary.

Land Use

The VCC South Alignment station area has a future residential population area of about 6300 people and a future employment population of about 3300 jobs. The VCC North Alignment station area has a future residential population of about 5000 people and a future job population in the order of 5500. The Finning station area has future residential population of about 5500 people and a future job population in the order of 8500.

In the absence of fundamental changes in land use policies, residential and job populations along Broadway (South Alignment) will remain relatively stable over the long term. Residential populations along the Finning (North Alignment) corridor will also remain relatively stable. However, over time the Finning (North Alignment) corridor will likely undergo a significant increase in jobs as development takes place consistent with the new I-3 zone in the False Creek flats.

Conclusion

When comparing the two alternatives in the longer term, the North Alignment is clearly superior to the South Alignment. As the Finning and other I-3 zoned sites in the False Creek Flats redevelop, it is reasonable to expect the job population to increase around the two stations. The City has an opportunity to use SkyTrain as a catalyst to achieve its land use goals in this area.

Bus/SkyTrain Integration

South Alignment (Broadway)

The #9 and #99B would likely remain unchanged. The #9 would continue to operate between Boundary Road and UBC. The #99B would likely continue to operate between Commercial Drive and UBC with some buses short turning at Main Street. This would be necessary to avoid an additional transfer for passengers arriving on the existing SkyTrain line from New Westminster and travelling to destinations west of Main.

As the Finning site develops it would have to be served by conventional bus (possibly also by the City's proposed street car), with connections provided to the existing Main Street Station at Terminal, the new station at Main and Broadway and likely to Broadway and Commercial.

The walking distance between the VCC station under Broadway and the existing #22 service on Clark Drive is about 260 metres.

North Alignment (Finning)

The #9 and #99B services on Broadway would likely remain unchanged. The Finning site would be well served by SkyTrain, which would obviate the need for additional TransLink bus resources to serve this site (reduced bus capital and operating costs). TransLink expects the increased SkyTrain operating costs would be more than offset by the savings in bus operating costs.

The walking distance between the proposed VCC North station and the existing #22 service on Clark Drive is 110 metres.

Conclusion

The North Alignment is superior because:

1. The walking distance between the VCC station and the #22 bus route on Clark is much closer
2. Fewer bus resources are required to properly serve the Finning site

Ridership

Rapid Transit Project2000 used the EMME/2 transportation computer model to analyse both route options. The results were inconclusive, in part because the two alignments and stations are so close to each other. As well, the land use component of the EMME model does not yet include the future I-3 and Finning job population projections. At the request of staff, Rapid Transit Project2000 have agreed to undertake further ridership analysis based on the job population projections for Finning and other I-3 sites in the False Creek Flats.

However, in the absence of detailed EMME/2 modelling, as described above, the North Alignment has significantly more potential jobs than the South Alignment. It is generally accepted that employment land uses have a higher transit trip generation rate than residential land uses, especially if a comprehensive, well connected and attractive transit system is provided. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that the North Alignment has a much greater potential to attract riders than the South Alignment, both locally and on a system-wide basis.

Construction

South Alignment

The soil conditions under Broadway are poor and therefore the portion of the tunnel from Clark to Glen Drive and the VCC south station will have to be constructed using the "cut and cover" technique. Staff anticipate considerable noise and vibration, particularly for VCC. In addition, staff anticipate traffic disruption on Broadway including likely detouring of bus and truck traffic, and possibly complete closure of Broadway during some or all of the construction phase. Bus detours are particularly problematic because they are trolleys.

Staff understand that any future Phase 2 tunnel construction will use a boring machine. This construction will have to start at the western terminus because the station at VCC would be in operation. Phase 2 construction will require a significant staging area. Depending on the western terminus of Phase 2, this could be at Cambie or Granville. Tunnel spoil material would be removed at this point and trucked away.

North Alignment

The guideway from Commercial to the Finning site, including the station at VCC would be elevated, with less construction disruption. In addition, the VCC north station is closer to the VCC parking lot, near Great Northern Way, rather than immediately adjacent to the library and other noise sensitive areas on the south side of the VCC building.

Construction of the elevated and "boxed culvert" sections through the Finning site are more conventional, less complicated and less disruptive than the cut and cover construction required for the South Alignment. The tunnel component under Prince Edward Street between Finning and Broadway would use a boring machine. A significant area for construction staging is likely available on the Finning site. Tunnel spoil material would be removed from the tunnel at the Finning end and could be removed by road or by rail.

* * * * *

And another report on the design of the station and future connections to Clark Drive:

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/010220/Tt2.htm
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Last edited by officedweller; January 8th, 2006 at 12:39 AM.
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Old January 8th, 2006, 04:38 AM   #768
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West Beyond VCC

The infotech park plans which were used to justify the Finning Station are questionable now. A new report concerning the False Creek Flats and the BNSF and CN rail yards seems to confirm that the area will be remaining as a goods staging area.

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/...t1complete.pdf

If a Finning Station were uneconomical, alternate plans should be drawn, possibly:
i). a merge option with the Expo Line near the Home Depot. M-Line trains would run Downtown alleviating some of the crowding at the Downtown stations and the Broadway-Commercial transfer station
ii). rerouting the M-Line without a Finning along Great Northern Way and 2nd Ave with a station at the Canada Line 2nd Ave Station. Perhaps the line could continue along the tram line with stations at Granville Island and Arbutus/Broadway.
iii). a northern routing of the line from VCC north along the CP line along Glen Dr. to Hastings and the west to interline with Skytrain at Waterfront. Alternatively, the Expo Line could be rerouted north to give a faster route to Waterfront and Burrard Stations and the Millennium Line could use the current Expo Line along Terminal and beyond.
iv). tunneling under 10th Ave, but eliminating the Finning Station. This option would not likely happen for quite a while since it would be very costly for short distances of line to be built.


ii). re
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Old January 8th, 2006, 05:47 AM   #769
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I don't think the first 3 are possible though
i) merge the M-line back into the Expo line will result in reduction in the frequency of train in the Broadway area, which actually result in reduction of service (remember that many many people needs to get off at Broadway to get to UBC?)
ii) The route won't get much ridership (just compare the ridership of 9/99 and 50/84). And also, how would it cross the Cambie and Granville bridge? The track can't be at grade, and its unlikely to go above the bridge (since Vancouver don't like elevated track, especially its 2-3 stories high), so most likely it has to go underground.
iii) Rerouting the expo line means rebuilding tracks, which will result in service distruption for months or even up to a year. I don't really think that's the best way to do. Plus the tail track of the M-line already reaches Glen Drive. Even if it makes a sharp turn there, it'll be crossing a lot of tracks...
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Old January 8th, 2006, 08:01 AM   #770
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I could see the last option, but with provision for a future station at Finning as UBC, SFU, Emily Carr and BCIT still have satellite campuses there. It would be probably closer to GNW and elevated (so as not to disturb functioning railyards).
I never really understood why the Finning Station had to be underground.

The bigger problem with the (ii) option is that it won't properly serve the Broadway office corridor because of teh steep hill on the Fairview slopes. The streetcar will also run pretty much that route anyways.

The interlining at Commercial was examined at one time, and it was decided that it a transfer was bearable until a connection to the Canada Line was built. So if congestion really becomes a problem, it'll just accelerate the need for an extension to meet the Canada Line at Broadway/City Hall Station (i.e. the distance to Cambie isn't far and weighed against the cost and disruption, etc. of interferring with the Expo Line, accelerating the M-Line extension seems the best option.
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Old January 8th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #771
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I don't think the first 3 are possible though
i) merge the M-line back into the Expo line will result in reduction in the frequency of train in the Broadway area, which actually result in reduction of service (remember that many many people needs to get off at Broadway to get to UBC?)

Do you mean east of Broadway? Overcrowding is worst from Broadway west.

ii) The route won't get much ridership (just compare the ridership of 9/99 and 50/84). And also, how would it cross the Cambie and Granville bridge? The track can't be at grade, and its unlikely to go above the bridge (since Vancouver don't like elevated track, especially its 2-3 stories high), so most likely it has to go underground.
Read OfficeDweller's posted Phase II Report. A Skytrain/UBC Rapid Bus along Broadway would have similar results for UBC destined passengers as a more northerly route along the old CPR right-of-way and Great Northern. 84 just started, so don't compare it yet. Hospital/City Hall passengers could take the Canada Line (no more creative name?) to Broadway. The line would not necessarily need to be elevated. It could be configured similarly to the at-grade sections in East Vancouver (around 29th Ave) or it could be cut-and -covered much more cheaply than at 10th Ave. Do you know where the old CP right-of-way goes? Under both Cambie and Granville bridges which were both built after the railway line.

iii) Rerouting the expo line means rebuilding tracks, which will result in service distruption for months or even up to a year. I don't really think that's the best way to do.
Not true. The Expo Line disruptions were minimal when the Millennium Line was built to interline at Columbia Station.

Plus the tail track of the M-line already reaches Glen Drive. Even if it makes a sharp turn there, it'll be crossing a lot of tracks...
Today 03:38 AM

True, it would be like the turn west of Main St Station, bad for operations, but similar to the proposed sharp turns west of Finning and at Prince Edward and 10th Ave. The Expo Line heading north rather than Millennium Line would probably be more feasible.

I could see the last option, but with provision for a future station at Finning as UBC, SFU, Emily Carr and BCIT still have satellite campuses there. It would be probably closer to GNW and elevated (so as not to disturb functioning railyards).
I never really understood why the Finning Station had to be underground.


The problem with the 10th Ave underground option is cost. It probably won't be done for 20 years, if ever. Disruptions are another problem. The M-Line and even RAV are greenfields-type projects with development occurring after their being constructed but 10th Ave is a mature area and would cause major disruptions even if tunnel boring machines were used. Think of the RAV project downtown and up to King Edward. Would city hall have the stomach for the same or worse along 10th Ave?

The bigger problem with the (ii) option is that it won't properly serve the Broadway office corridor because of teh steep hill on the Fairview slopes. The streetcar will also run pretty much that route anyways.

Connections could be made using the RAV Line and the Granville St bus or doubling back from Arbutus. The money saved construction dollars saved could go into a stronger network elsewhere, probably the suburbs. Is the streetcar still a priority? It might be better to route it along the Granville Street Bridge and Arbutus.



The interlining at Commercial was examined at one time, and it was decided that it a transfer was bearable until a connection to the Canada Line was built. So if congestion really becomes a problem, it'll just accelerate the need for an extension to meet the Canada Line at Broadway/City Hall Station (i.e. the distance to Cambie isn't far and weighed against the cost and disruption, etc. of interferring with the Expo Line, accelerating the M-Line extension seems the best option.


Yes, the study said that transferring would be bearable for five years after M-Line completion. 3 years is here and we will still be counting in another ten. What I am saying is that the option on the table is unacceptable because of the high costs which are delaying the project. The three options I mentioned cut the costs and therefore the completion time for a decent rapid transit network.

At least the implementation of 84 is a good start, but the frequency will have be doubled to encourage riders to switch. I doubt the buses will be able to keep schedule since 4th Ave is worse than Broadway for congestion.
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Old January 8th, 2006, 05:53 PM   #772
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I thought the new station was to have an overhead covered connection to VCC like Metrotown except longer?
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Old January 8th, 2006, 09:09 PM   #773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splashflash
Do you mean east of Broadway? Overcrowding is worst from Broadway west.
For this, I think the best way is to increase the capacity per train (They'll probably make all 2-cars MKII trains into 4-car trains when the 34 new cars arrived). The maximum frequency for the Skytrain system is 90 seconds (I read from a post from some other forum by a Translink Employee), and interlining will past this frequency unless the frequency between Broadway and Columbia is reduced (which consequenty reduce the frequency of train to Surrey and the M-Line)

Quote:
Originally Posted by splashflash
Read OfficeDweller's posted Phase II Report. A Skytrain/UBC Rapid Bus along Broadway would have similar results for UBC destined passengers as a more northerly route along the old CPR right-of-way and Great Northern. 84 just started, so don't compare it yet. Hospital/City Hall passengers could take the Canada Line (no more creative name?) to Broadway.
But it will miss all other offices along Broadway, plus the extra transfer to the Canada line (for only 1 station, 1 min travel time) is much more inconvinent and will result in a loss of ridership. If a line can be built to serve 2 groups of people, why built it to serve only 1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by splashflash
The line would not necessarily need to be elevated. It could be configured similarly to the at-grade sections in East Vancouver (around 29th Ave) or it could be cut-and -covered much more cheaply than at 10th Ave. Do you know where the old CP right-of-way goes? Under both Cambie and Granville bridges which were both built after the railway line.
The ROW is reserved by the City of Vancouver for streetcars/LRT, plus the ROW has quite a few street crossings (and some are even under the bridge). As you know, LIM tracks can't cross streets....

Quote:
Originally Posted by splashflash
Not true. The Expo Line disruptions were minimal when the Millennium Line was built to interline at Columbia Station.
Because there was a plan to bring the Skytrain to Lougheed Mall/Coquitlam when the Expo line is originally built, so the switches and branched tracks was already built when the Expo line opens (similar to the situation in Lougheed Town Center... except the track is at grade and longer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by splashflash
At least the implementation of 84 is a good start, but the frequency will have be doubled to encourage riders to switch. I doubt the buses will be able to keep schedule since 4th Ave is worse than Broadway for congestion.
The route 84 was designed to have 7.5min frequency at peak, 10min during midday, 15min during evening until 1am, and run 7 days a week. But right now, it is limited to day time service, 15min frequency, M-F because of:
i) the service is just started and ridership is low, there's no point to provide high frequency service
ii) there is not enough bus to cover the route until the new buses arrived in Sept. The buses running route #84 right now are coming from 114, 115, 148, 705, 709, 712, which was cancelled in Dec last year.

Last edited by nname; January 8th, 2006 at 09:20 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 01:36 AM   #774
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Quote:
For this, I think the best way is to increase the capacity per train (They'll probably make all 2-cars MKII trains into 4-car trains when the 34 new cars arrived). The maximum frequency for the Skytrain system is 90 seconds (I read from a post from some other forum by a Translink Employee), and interlining will past this frequency unless the frequency between Broadway and Columbia is reduced (which consequenty reduce the frequency of train to Surrey and the M-Line)
I wonder if frequency is limited by turn-around time. I spoke to an engineer who helped design part of the Skytrain system and he said it was designed to go in circles. If a loop were created, maybe frequency could be lowered. Skytrain is unique (driverless) in that more trains can be added without losing the economy one would have on systems with drivers. Can anyone confirm this?




Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by splashflash
The line would not necessarily need to be elevated. It could be configured similarly to the at-grade sections in East Vancouver (around 29th Ave) or it could be cut-and -covered much more cheaply than at 10th Ave. Do you know where the old CP right-of-way goes? Under both Cambie and Granville bridges which were both built after the railway line.
The ROW is reserved by the City of Vancouver for streetcars/LRT, plus the ROW has quite a few street crossings (and some are even under the bridge). As you know, LIM tracks can't cross streets....
PHP Code:
The $10 million start-up cost of the streetcar begs an anwer for "why hasn't anything been done yet?".  I think the same answer can be applied to a Broadway Subway.  Lack of money.  A line elevated to Cambie and then running at-grade to Granville with a couple of cross streets bridging the rail line would be about half as costly as tunneling by boring machine.  Even if a cut and cover were doneit would save a lot as shown by what is being done on the RAV line
[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by splashflash
Not true. The Expo Line disruptions were minimal when the Millennium Line was built to interline at Columbia Station.

Because there was a plan to bring the Skytrain to Lougheed Mall/Coquitlam when the Expo line is originally built, so the switches and branched tracks was already built when the Expo line opens (similar to the situation in Lougheed Town Center... except the track is at grade and longer)

PHP Code:
You might be right.  Coumbia was the original terminus and Coquitlam was pushing for Skytrain when the Skybridge was being builtWhat you write  about the Lougheed Stn switch is definitely true.  That cost $20 million, as I recall.  Will the LRT be able to pull into the station on the track for disembarking passengers?  It will be almost 20 years for Coquitlam to get any rail system after original promises in about 1991.  I think the same could happen for Broadway.  That is why we have to look for other less costly options.

 
When the Broadway to Main St stretch of track (originally a test track designed to carry Mark I cars but not Mark II or lrvswas upgraded disruptions were minimal.  Anywayit would be interesting to find out how long disruptions really would be if a merge were to be built
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Old January 9th, 2006, 05:47 AM   #775
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If I'm not mistaken there are three B-line buses in service right now. I'm guessing once the Canada Line and Coquitlam Line are built the 98 and the 97 will be removed. I think once those lines are completed two new express bus routes should be added along 41st Ave and on Hastings. Are there any plans to do this?
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Old January 10th, 2006, 04:21 AM   #776
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I still can't believe that they made cost savings by using the existing skytrain system a non-factor in deciding on the Canada line (FYI, the name was a requirement by the Fed govt in order for them to free up the money for the line....holy sponsership batman). Now by '09, we'll have gone from one type of system to 3 (LRT, RAV and Sky). The voters in PoMo objected to an elevated skytrain line. I don't see why it couldn't have been built at grade; if there's room for a LRT, then why not a ST?
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Old January 11th, 2006, 06:55 AM   #777
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By volvo_chan from a Hong Kong transport forum :









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Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
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Old January 13th, 2006, 07:58 PM   #778
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Does anyone have photos of the stations or the public amenities around them??
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Old January 14th, 2006, 03:46 AM   #779
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at some time last month... i was like getting to the bus stop.. until i saw one of these buses one the streets, so i went chasing it to get on but sadly... it ran off... its much silent than the older versions, but my friend said its squishy inside
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Old January 14th, 2006, 07:34 AM   #780
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Photos of the new VCC-Clark Station. (Taken on Jan 6, 2006)






















Enjoy!!!
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