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Old May 16th, 2006, 09:20 AM   #1101
npinguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
Once George W. Bush and Dick Cheney vacate the White House, oil and gas prices will start to moderate. By 2010 I expect to be paying between 60 and 70 cents retail for gasoline.
Yes, and I expect that by 2010 we'll all be eating sugar plums, and dancing around merrily on soft green pastures while naked nymphs frolic around and toss flower petals at our feet.

And my expectation might be more realistic.



Gas prices are insane because oil production has reached capacity, and is no longer increasing. Meanwhile, the middle east oil barons and the western corporations have a stranglehold on the product which means they can charge whatever they want. With hundreds of millions of cars in north america alone, they all know the demand isn't going anywhere, and since they're in charge of the supply, the prices will stay up.

Maybe, if we're all lucky, by 2010 cheap efficient alternative fuels will be discovered, but even if that happens, gasoline won't be 60 or 70 cents a gallon unless the US finds an oil field the size of california within it's borders.
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Old May 16th, 2006, 10:35 AM   #1102
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Remember that Translink did not want the Evergreen Line to cannibalize the premium Westcoast Express - that's one of the reasons that a "slower" system (non-exclusive ROW) was acceptable for the Evergreen Line. If you want a fast direct connection to downtown - as a 9-5 commuter - you take the WCE, not the Evergreen<->M-Line<->Expo-Line route.

The Evergreen Line (as part of the "T-Line" in the Livable Region Strategic Plan) is also intended to provide connectivity to Surrey (again via the Evergreen<->M-Line<->Expo-Line route in the other direction).

I think what you'll now see is lower capacity streetcar type systems built from the ends of the backbone systems - i.e. it's already being planned in Surrey to Guildford from Central City and I could see it down Railway, etc. to Steveston from Richmond Centre.
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Old May 16th, 2006, 06:38 PM   #1103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npinguy
Yes, and I expect that by 2010 we'll all be eating sugar plums, and dancing around merrily on soft green pastures while naked nymphs frolic around and toss flower petals at our feet.

And my expectation might be more realistic.

... gasoline won't be 60 or 70 cents a gallon unless the US finds an oil field the size of california within it's borders.
I like the bit about the nymphs!

I meant 60 or 70 cents a litre.

For two fairly authoritative reports on the likely future of the oil market, here are two sources:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...lsupply04.html

Aug 2004 Long-Term World Oil Supply Scenarios: The Future Is Neither as Bleak or Rosy as Some Assert, by John H. Wood, Gary R. Long, David F. Morehouse, Energy Information Administration, US Dept of Energy


http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...f/chapter4.pdf

World Economic Outlook:Globalization and External Imbalances, April 2005, A Survey by the Staff of the International Monetary Fund
Chapter IV: WILL THE OIL MARKET CONTINUE TO BE TIGHT?

The second of these, the IMF study, projects that crude would sell at between $35 and $55 per barrell between 2005 and 2030. One could well object that we have already exceeded that with crude at $70 per barrell. I interpret that as a short term price peak that doesn't affect the longer term picture, which is that we are already paying the highest prices we can reasonably expect, and that lower, more normal prices are undoubtedly ahead.
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Old May 16th, 2006, 07:28 PM   #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
Remember that Translink did not want the Evergreen Line to cannibalize the premium Westcoast Express - that's one of the reasons that a "slower" system (non-exclusive ROW) was acceptable for the Evergreen Line. If you want a fast direct connection to downtown - as a 9-5 commuter - you take the WCE, not the Evergreen<->M-Line<->Expo-Line route.
I believe you're referring to Section 6 of the report I cited above, in which they project that a Skytrain extension to Coquitlam would reduce WCExpress ridership from over 2000 to about 900. Frankly, I find that projection to be completely unbelievable. There must be something very wrong with their modelling to produce a result as perverse as that.

Once WCExpress leaves Port Moody it presently has only one drop-off, Waterfront Station. It will make that trip in 25 minutes, or 30 minutes from Coquitlam Stations, whereas according to Exhibit 5.3, even a Skytrain extension to the Northeast sector would be making that trip, or an equivalent one from Coquitlam City Hall, in 61 minutes. Why on earth is someone going to jump on a one hour train when they are used to a half hour train?

The only possibility is that Translink figures that a huge number of these WCExpress passengers are presently going downtown, and then heading east and south on the Skytrain to destinations such as Broadway/Commercial or Nanaimo St, Joyce, etc. From my own daily experience as as WCExpress rider from Maple Meadows I find this very, very hard to believe. There might be a small number of people making those connections, but most WCExpress riders are headed either downtown, or midtown (Broadway/Cambie thru to Broadway/Granville, or further west such as UBC.

The real fear is not that the Skytrain/LRT will cannibalize the WCExpress, but that they will have to cancel both the Express and the regular bus service in order for force people to use the new "rapid transit" system. Again referring to Exhibit 5.3 in the above cited Delcan report, they project a trip from Coquitlam City Hall to Waterfront would have been 61 minutes with a Skytrain extension and 72/73 minutes with the selected LRT. Compare that to a humble #160 bus, taking 45 minutes to do the same trip using HOV lanes. All that extra "investment" for a system that will take a at least 33% longer to do the same trip.
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Old May 17th, 2006, 01:35 AM   #1105
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Yup - I think that's the reference.
I think you're right - I don't think that people would switch.
But in addition to destination points west of downtown, I think that the 5 trains per morning or per evening for WCE is more of a restriction that commuters would try to avoid by Skytraining. i.e. instead of rushing for the train home, they could hang out downtown, shop, eat, etc. - or just be impatient that they missed their scheduled train and hop on Skytrain.

As I mentioned, the Coquitlam Line is part of the Livable Region Strategic Plan and should be judged solely on connectivity to Downtown Vancouver - it serves to connect to Surrey, New West and Metrotown too. Remember that the original plan for Skytrain to Lougheed and Coquitlam was for a Skytrain branch connecting to the Expo Line at either Royal Oak or Columbia. That would have been even longer than the Millennium Line route, even with the transfers.

I'm tending to think of the Evergreen line as a feeder line - either into WCE at Coquitlam or Port Moody for downtown rush hour commuters or feeding into Skytrain at Lougheed for regional commuters or off-hour commuters (too bad no one seat ride).
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Old May 17th, 2006, 08:55 AM   #1106
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They should not haver feeder lines on the burrard penisula, its basicly flushing money down the toilet because these street level lines like the Evergreen line will be ineficient withing a decade because of the growth in these areas. Actualy in my opinion the evergreen line will be obsolete the very day it will be built, for me it will still be twice as fast to go by car during rush hour from burnaby to coquitalm than using that line, and might i ad cheaper. Now if they have a built a skytrain line than that would take about the same amount of time as a car to make that trip, and i would strongly cosinder taking it, and if not then i would end up taking it in the near future as congestion on the roads gets worse.
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Old May 17th, 2006, 02:23 PM   #1107
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Wasn't the whole reason why SkyTrain was NOT built was because of Port Moody NIBMYs not wanting their "small town atmosphere" to be changed do to the elevated structure of SkyTrain? (I don't see how great the atmosphere in Port Moody is when a 4-6 lane highway (7A I think) runs straight thru the main street.....)

SkyTrain could have been used to increase density in Coquitlam (which is bascially a giant suburb)
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Old May 17th, 2006, 11:22 PM   #1108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alesmarv
They should not haver feeder lines on the burrard penisula, its basicly flushing money down the toilet because these street level lines like the Evergreen line will be ineficient withing a decade because of the growth in these areas. Actualy in my opinion the evergreen line will be obsolete the very day it will be built, for me it will still be twice as fast to go by car during rush hour from burnaby to coquitalm than using that line, and might i ad cheaper. Now if they have a built a skytrain line than that would take about the same amount of time as a car to make that trip, and i would strongly cosinder taking it, and if not then i would end up taking it in the near future as congestion on the roads gets worse.
I find it reassuring that Translink will NOT be demolishing the unbuilt siding and third platform at Lougheed Station when it builds the Evergreen line. That way, Skytrain could still be expanded with a branch along the southeast corridor along Lougheed Highway.

en, that's right. The Skytrain allignment was along the CP tracks, not down the middle of the street. I think it may have been at grade so it would have blocked access across the CP tracks. If it was elevated, it wou;ldn't block access but would block views.
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Old May 18th, 2006, 05:10 AM   #1109
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


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Old May 18th, 2006, 06:11 AM   #1110
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CANADA LINE TRAIN INFORMATION

Rotem's XG EMU Intercity Type (K-Series) offers passenger convenience. Each component of XG EMU reduces the "total life cycle cost" of the vehicle by reducing the maintenance costs.

Supplier: Rotem (Hyundai Motor Group)
Model: XG EMU Intercity Type (K-Series)
Maximum Opereating Speed: 80 km/h
Maximum Design Speed: 110 km/h
Driver: Automation/Driverless
Acceleration: 1.3 m/s(2)
Jerk Limit: 0.8 m/s(3)
Service: 0.8 ~ 1.36 m/sec(2)
Emergency: 1.35 m/sec(2)
Noise level: 70 dB(A) at 80 km/h (Ground)
Line Voltage: 800 V DC

Train Formation: [A+A] (2 vehicles per train)
End to End Journey Time: 25/26 minutes
Pasasenger Capacity: 334 per train
Seating Configuration: Side-by-side transverse, flip-up seats at wheelchair and bicycle positions
Bicycle Accommodation: 2 per train
Wheelchair Accommodation: 4 per train
Width: 3 metres
Height: 3.6 metres
Length: 41 metres per train
Weight: 76 tonnes empty
Car Body Material: Stainless Steel 301L
Interior Material: Sandwich Material with NOMEX (Honeycomb)

Propulsion & Electric Systems: TMS & VVVF Control (IGBT), AC Traction Motor, SIV: VVVF Control, IGBT
Bogie: Bolsterless Type, Rubber & Air Spring Suspension
Brake System: Regenerative + Dynamic + Friction Brake, Compressor: AC Motor Driven, Friction Brake : Wheel Mounted Disc Brake
Air Conditionning Equipment: R134a, Roof Mounted Package type, 42 kW/car
Gangway: Wide Open Gangway (high noise transmission loss)
Passenger Door: Electric Sliding Plug-in Type

Security Features: Passenger Silent Alarm, Emergency passenger-operated intercom panels, Modern vandal-resistant finishes
Information System: EIDS (Electronic Information Display System), Electronic “Destination” signs on the outside of each vehicle ("YVR-AIRPORT", "WATERFRONT", "RICHMOND"), Public Address System announcing next stations

Order Quantity: 20 trains; 40 vehicles
Order Cost: CAN$1.5 million per vehicle; CAN$60 million contract
Order Delivery: 2009

Currently In Opereration XG EMU's: Hong Kong MTR, France, Italy


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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

Last edited by mr.x; May 18th, 2006 at 06:40 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2006, 11:57 AM   #1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
I find it reassuring that Translink will NOT be demolishing the unbuilt siding and third platform at Lougheed Station when it builds the Evergreen line. That way, Skytrain could still be expanded with a branch along the southeast corridor along Lougheed Highway.
I would also hope that they will not demolishing the third track/platform. I hope that they would actually finish building the third platform, and route the westbound train to that platform. So track 1 will remain having eastbound train to Columbia, track 2 will be reserved for future short turn train at Lougheed (so the train can unload passengers at the 2nd platform and wait there until it can switch over to the 3rd platform to begin westbound service without having to go all to way to the center track besides TCH or block the thru trains on both direction while it is switching tracks). The LRT would take the new 4th platform connecting to the westbound skytrain at the 3rd platform.
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Old May 19th, 2006, 09:20 PM   #1112
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Nice proposal (esp. since people are more time constrained getting to work in the morning than getting back home) - write that in to Translink.....

The short turning could be to/from the east as well (probably planned that way for when the PMC line was to be built, as the PMC<->VCC segment was to be a one seat ride.)

*************


New pics at the gallery:

http://www.canadaline.ca/galleryFront.asp





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Old May 21st, 2006, 12:59 PM   #1113
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Great Progress in Vancouver, but in Richmond, it's still the utility relocation along no. 3 Road!!!
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Old May 21st, 2006, 03:20 PM   #1114
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Great to see construction for any public transit in Canada! Like the new trains too!
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Old May 26th, 2006, 06:33 AM   #1115
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Vancouver Sun, Page A01, 25-May-2006
More city residents legging it to work

By Frances Bula

More people in Vancouver walk to work than anywhere in North America except New York City.

The proportion of people commuting by bicycle has doubled in 10 years.
And the transit system, with triple the number of people using it to go to the University of B.C. since 1997 thanks to U-Pass, has become so popular that it's in danger of losing passengers because of overcrowding.

That's the latest transportation picture for Vancouver, a city that is setting the standard as North America's "greenest" city as it bucks the trend to more cars, roads and traffic that prevails elsewhere.

Vancouver has already exceeded the goals it had for 2021 when it comes to reducing car trips and promoting cycling and walking downtown, a shift that many environmentalists and planners say is vital in order to reduce pollution and create more livable cities.

"Our projection for 2021 was to be at 18 per cent for all biking and walking trips. We're now at 27 to 32 per cent, as of 2004. This does not look very ambitious any more," says Lon LaClaire, Vancouver's strategic transportation planning engineer, the co-author of a report outlining the city's progress on its transportation plan.

That's largely because of the city's hugely successful development of a residential downtown, he said. Having 72,000 people living on the downtown peninsula surrounding the central business district is a major reason for that radical increase in walking and cycling.

"There are two things that affect how people get around -- land use and structure. The bigger piece is probably the land use." The city has also doubled the number of kilometres of cycling routes in the past 10 years and worked on ways to make walking more enjoyable.

But people outside Vancouver's boundaries are also choosing not to bring their cars.

Although trips to the city have increased by 23 per cent between 1995 and 2005, vehicle traffic decreased by 10 per cent across Vancouver boundaries in the same period.

The just-released statistics in the city report come from trip diaries, surveys and 24-hour road counts done mostly in 2004.

All of that is in stark contrast to most of the United States. The U.S. Department of Transportation noted recently that "the private vehicle, especially driven alone to work, is the mode of choice. . . . In every major metro area, workers who drove alone to work increased in numbers and share in the last 40 years."

The one problem area for Vancouver is central Broadway, where drivers in cars still account for 50 per cent of all trips. That's partly because the transit connections between the city's two major office hubs -- Broadway and downtown -- are so bad. It's also because transit along Broadway is at capacity.

"We're hitting the wall," said LaClaire. "There's no more capacity in the system for them to get on."

More than 60,000 people use the Broadway buses every day and passengers are getting left at stops because buses are so crowded, even though they're running at one a minute.

LaClaire said the Broadway/Commercial transit hub is the city's biggest congestion problem, with the result that transit use has dropped off slightly in the past year because some people are giving up.

"It's a really tragic thing for us. Anywhere else, carrying that number of people would be on [light rapid transit]."

The extension of the Millennium SkyTrain line from Vancouver Community College to Granville Street had been a priority for TransLink and was originally scheduled to be done by this year. But it was bumped for the Richmond-to-downtown Canada Line and the proposed light rail line into Coquitlam, Port Moody and Port Coquitlam.

LaClaire said some of the Broadway problems will be relieved by the Canada Line, which will create a fast link from Broadway to downtown. But, LaClaire said, the extension to Granville has to be a priority.

His department plans to set new transportation targets for 2031, since it has already achieved most of what it planned to do by 2021.


FAR FROM THE ROAD LESS TRAVELLED
Researchers investigate the busiest blocks for pedestrian traffic in Vancouver and preferred methods of travelling in the city. Studies find that more Vancouver residents walk to work than in any other Canadian city.

BUSIEST BLOCKS
A 2002 study flagged these among the downtown spots with the highest number of observed pedestrians between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. and 3 p.m. and 6 p.m.:
- Robson, Burrard to Granville
- Hornby, Robson to Pender
- Alberni, Bute to Burrard
- Howe, Dunsmuir to Cordova
- Robson, Denman to Broughton
- Davie, Hornby to Granville
- Pender, Carrall to Main
- Burrard, Davie to Comox
- Granville, Davie to Smithe
- Pender, Bute to Granville
- Seymour, Pender to Cordova
- Hastings, Burrard to Homer
- Smithe, Hornby to Granville
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


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Old May 26th, 2006, 09:16 AM   #1116
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what i think why passengers get left at stations is because, its either the buses dont come at all, and if they come 2 or 3+ buses come all at once...
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Old May 26th, 2006, 09:47 AM   #1117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bs_lover_boy
Great Progress in Vancouver, but in Richmond, it's still the utility relocation along no. 3 Road!!!
Still, we're right on schedule....approximately 10% of the project is completed or 5 months out of 52 months of construction.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old May 29th, 2006, 09:42 AM   #1118
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To get an idea of how long the Canada Line station platforms will be, just look at this aerial picture of Kuala Lumpur's monorail. Our Canada Line stations are 41 metres long (with an exception of a few at 50 metres at the most)....the monorail platform length in the picture is 40 metres.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old May 30th, 2006, 01:00 AM   #1119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
CANADA LINE TRAIN INFORMATION

Rotem's XG EMU Intercity Type (K-Series) offers passenger convenience. Each component of XG EMU reduces the "total life cycle cost" of the vehicle by reducing the maintenance costs.
...
Train Formation: [A+A] (2 vehicles per train)
End to End Journey Time: 25/26 minutes
Pasasenger Capacity: 334 per train
Seating Configuration: Side-by-side transverse, flip-up seats at wheelchair and bicycle positions
Bicycle Accommodation: 2 per train
Wheelchair Accommodation: 4 per train
Width: 3 metres
Height: 3.6 metres
Length: 41 metres per train
Really? Only two bicycles per train, spread over 300+ people? That's not really consistent with the declared priority of encouraging biking and walking.

With a frequency of one train every two minutes, capacity would be about 10,000 people per hour, or about the same as five lanes of freeway, each lane carrying 2,000 single occupant vehicles per hour. Of course one solitary freeway lane carrying 1000 single occupant vehicles and 1000 50 person buses would have an hourly capacity of 51,000 people per hour, but there's some important reason why that doesn't count.

Finally, at 3 metres by about 40 metres, the total area of the trains is about 140 square metres. When carrying over 300 people, there will be well over two people per square metre, which it sticks in my mind is pretty much the standard assumption in the industry, if not three people per square metre. That doesn't leave a whole lot of extra room for luggage, or child strollers, or any of a number of other things. This tendency to pack people in like sardines hardly makes the transit experience more attractive.
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Old May 30th, 2006, 01:08 AM   #1120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
Many of these brochures tend to focus on things that the average transit user isn't really concerned with, stylistic matters for example. I note that the sketch plans make references to "washroom". Since it's singular, I assume it's an employee washroom, and that transit users will still have no access to washrooms.

I wonder if this is typical of subway/rail systems in other cities? For someone contemplating a one and a half hour trip from, say, downtown to White Rock, it's a pretty demeaning thing to realize that, more important that having a pass or cash for the fare, you better be God Damn sure you've totally drained your kidneys and bowels before starting the journey.
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