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Old June 17th, 2006, 11:58 PM   #1161
dchengg
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my dad always said, when earthquake comes, good bye richmond! and we have a chance of getting an earthquake!
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 02:25 PM   #1162
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Question

I was just wondering, did they explore the option of placing the Evergreen line underground before deciding to go for Light Rail instead? If so, I guess the costs would not have justified the line being built eh?
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 08:00 PM   #1163
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^ no. but about 2 km of the line will be underground because of steep grades.
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 08:05 PM   #1164
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I see, which part of the line is that at? Why did they choose Light Rail over underground SkyTrain. Sorry, not really clear about it. Seems to be such a waste to have that extra platform at Lougheed to me.
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 08:23 PM   #1165
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WAGES FOR TUNNEL BORING WORKERS

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
A little beauty and a great big boring beast

Raina Delisle, The Province
Published: Sunday, June 11, 2006

Four-year-old Leilani Henry was bestowed a "boring" honour yesterday, but she was excited.

The 440-tonne tunnel-boring machine that will dig a pair of 2.5-kilometre tunnels under downtown Vancouver for the Canada Line rapid transit system was named after the little girl.

...

A bottle of champagne was thrown against the machine, "Sweet Leilani," by Canada Line president and CEO Jane Bird, InTransitBC president and CEO Jean-Marc Arbaud and Jim Burke of SNC-Lavalin.
...
© The Vancouver Province 2006

The machine is undoubtedly impressive, but a recent article in Business in Vancouver by Jim Sinclair sheds a bit of light on how InTranistBC is operating this equipment.

From this week's edition of BIV - 2 sides

Head to Head : Should Canada make greater use of immigrant guest workers to meet rising labour demand and increased labour shortages?

No Jim Sinclair

Exploitation of guest workers erodes wage levels and standards


“If you don’t like your job, you’re always free to quit and find another.”
That’s the classic employer response to discontented workers, particularly in times of high unemployment and especially when they’re talking union.
But more and more B.C. employers are finding too many workers ready to take that advice as the economy heats up.
A Canadian worker confronted with low wages, poor working conditions or an abusive employer can and will exercise his or her God-given right to quit.
Rather than raise wages or improve working conditions, more employers are looking overseas for help – or seeking government intervention to push down labour standards rather than responding to labour market shortages with improved wages.
The result is dramatic growth of guest worker programs in agriculture and construction that see indentured workers imported from Mexico, Costa Rica and other countries on term contracts.
If they don’t like their jobs, too bad. They can quit, but if they do, they’re put right back on the plane to unemployment at home.
That reality was underlined in a recent Business in Vancouver story by reporter Peter Mitham (Growers look further afield for harvest help; issue 866; May 30 – June 5).
Hiring guest workers imposes housing and other costs on employers that add between $3 and $3.50 an hour to base wage costs of $8.50. But Mitham learned that “employers consider the cost worthwhile compared with having to replace local workers who frequently disappear after just a few days’ or weeks’ worth of work.”
It’s a modern form of slavery that deserves to be stamped out. Foreign workers employed under this program live in legal limbo, outside normal employment standards and vulnerable to exploitation and abuse.
The program not only puts downward pressure on the wages and working conditions of workers outside the affected industries, it opens the door to unfair competition by employers who try to squeeze their captive workforce past all normal limits.
In one instance last year, a group of guest farm workers found conditions so intolerable they went on strike and demanded to be sent home.

Early this month, InTransit BC confirmed that 50 workers from Central and South America were working on the RAV line, claiming these construction labourers are uniquely skilled in the operation of “sophisticated” tunnel boring machines.
The machines may be sophisticated but the pay and benefits are medieval. One Costa Rican confirmed to Global News that he is being paid only $1,000 a month plus room and board, well below minimum wage and a far cry from the $18 to $21.50 an hour claimed by InTransit.
Representatives of the B.C. Building Trades Council showed reporters the list of workers they could dispatch to the job, but they would be free to insist on decent wages, safe working conditions and other benefits that could eat into InTransit’s profit margin. And like most Canadians, they won’t work a six- or seven-day week.


There’s no doubt Canada needs more workers to fill positions in agriculture, construction and other key industries. But they should be recruited through the usual immigration processes and granted the full protection of Canadian law while they are here.
Employers in sectors with labour shortages need to look in the mirror to find solutions and stop asking for subsidies in the form of guest worker programs and exemptions from employment standards.
If the real cost of a guest worker is $3 to $3.50 above minimum wage, then employers should offer that wage to workers already in Canada and see if that changes the equation. They should invest in training and other benefits to encourage worker loyalty. And they should seek to turn ethical employment practices into as powerful a consumer marketing tool as organic production.
Immigration has been and remains a critical contributor to our country’s well being. Most of us are here today because of it, but guest workers do not become nation builders. They, instead, are the most easily exploited labour force and that should be unacceptable to all of us.
Jim Sinclair ([email protected]) is president of the British Columbia Federation of Labour.


Who owns InTransitBC, and why are they setting this kind of example?
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 11:06 PM   #1166
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It was meant to be a skytrain, funding was even lined up (about as well as it is now, but still) and then the NIMBY's came. People decided that having a elevated train running through "downtown" Port Moody would ruin the small town ambiance. You know, like a 6 lane highway doesn't already....I personally think its increadable short sighted, but o well. Now we wait and see if NIMBY's will keep Translink from building stations near schools because of "hoodlems".

It will be underground from Como lake/Clarke until St. Johns/Barnet (by the old strip club [hurrah small town ambiance!]). It's done like that because the grade is so steep.

I still don't understand why they want to run it along St Johns though. There's a CPR alignment like 200m North of it that runs the whole route.
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 11:17 PM   #1167
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For the sake of completensss, here's the other side of that BIV head to head:

Head to Head : Should Canada make greater use of immigrant guest workers to meet rising labour demand and increased labour shortages?

Jock Finlayson Yes

Foreign workers help tap boom timesand deepen pool of potential residents


Like many other advanced industrial countries, Canada is about to come face to face with the economic and social challenges arising from an aging population and a sharp slowdown in labour force growth.

These hugely important demographic trends promise to change both the human resource practices and the marketing strategies of many businesses. At a more macro level, they will put unprecedented stress on pension and health-care systems and reshape the nation’s job market.

The labour shortages being experienced by an array of industries – from construction and mining to oil and gas, health care and advanced technology – are but a foretaste of what lies ahead. Consider the following factoid: forecasts point to approximately one million job vacancies in B.C. over the next dozen years, yet only 650,000 young people will move through the province’s K-12 school system over the same period. Even if all of these K-12 graduates stay in B.C., the result will still be a shortfall of 350,000 prospective workers measured against the expected number of job openings.

Several options exist to lessen the impact of anticipated labour shortages, including extending the “normal” retirement age, encouraging more older workers to stay on the job, tapping into underused labour pools such as aboriginals and persuading more prime working-age Canadians living in other provinces to move to B.C.

Immigration is another oft-cited strategy to address the looming labour supply crunch, but it is far from being a panacea. In recent years, immigrant landings in B.C. have hovered in the vicinity of 35,000 annually – a tiny inflow when compared with the 2.1 million people who make up the province’s workforce.

Moreover, not all immigrants end up employed. Under Canadian immigration policy, many enter as “family class” immigrants or as refugees. In fact, over the five-year period from 2000 to 2004, the “skilled worker” category accounted for only 48 per cent of the immigrants arriving in B.C., and even this figure significantly overstates the actual number of skilled newcomers since it includes the spouses and dependent children of the principal applicants.

The figures cited above refer to permanent immigrants. But there is another category of foreign workers that should not be overlooked: those holding temporary work permits.

Last year, about 19,000 foreigners entered B.C. on temporary work visas. Most were care-givers, nannies and farm workers, but modest numbers of academic researchers and other highly skilled individuals also come to B.C. with work permits.

In most cases, temporary foreign workers must have approved job offers from Canadian employers prior to entry. In determining whether to issue work visas, federal government agencies strive to ensure that the admission of foreign workers will not adversely affect job opportunities for Canadian citizens.

As skill shortages grow more acute, government policy-makers should be looking to develop a more aggressive work visa program. Qualified foreign visa-holders can help to meet specific labour market shortages – especially short-term shortages.

For example, the current construction boom in B.C. and Alberta will undoubtedly wind down within a few years’ time. Domestic workers can’t fill all of the trades positions now required by the construction industry. But is it really wise to train many tens of thousands of Canadians to fill 100 per cent of these positions, given that that many construction jobs probably won’t exist once the current boom passes? Bringing in foreign workers for two or three years can be an efficient way to meet short-term labour demand.

Once they have acquired Canadian experience, foreign visa-holders can also be an attractive pool from which to select permanent immigrants.

Canada’s immigration rules should be overhauled to make it easier for both temporary foreign workers with needed skills and foreign students graduating from Canadian education and training institutions to apply to become landed immigrants once they have spent some time in the country.

Jock Finlayson ([email protected]) is executive vice-president at the Business Council of B.C. (www.bcbc.com). Head to Head runs monthly.
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 11:43 PM   #1168
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DELCAN REPORT

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewcs
It was meant to be a skytrain, funding was even lined up (about as well as it is now, but still) and then the NIMBY's came. People decided that having a elevated train running through "downtown" Port Moody would ruin the small town ambiance. You know, like a 6 lane highway doesn't already....I personally think its increadable short sighted, but o well. Now we wait and see if NIMBY's will keep Translink from building stations near schools because of "hoodlems".
I don't think one can blame this decision on citizen protesters. Translink had Delcan, a well-known Canadian company, and some others do an analysis of alternatives and conventional LRT was chosen.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pdf...cal_report.pdf

It concluded that while Skytrain had the highest benefits it also had the biggest capital costs and the biggest urban visual impacts. LRT had somewhat lower benefits, but also lower costs, but higher enviromental impacts if a southeast approach to Coquitlam were chosen.

You mention a six-lane highway. Some 15 or so years ago when the Barnet highway was widened to four lanes, and into the 1990s as well, there was talk of a Port Moody bypass. It would link the Barnet highway in the west to the Barnet-Lougheed alignment at the east side of Port Moody along the waterfront-industrial area, and the entire route could eventually be upgraded to freeway status with the elimination of commercial accessess and intersections and their replacement with interchanges and a frontage road. What has happened to this proposal?

Finally, I have to admit that I have some sympathy for your dreaded Nimby's on at least one point, the hoodlums and general criminal element that are believed to hover around the Skytrain system. I think it's quite apparent that the Expo line at least has, for whatever reasons, become a conduit for thieves who have a major drug habit to support. Some years ago I recall a presentation by an ICBC official who stated that the higher premiums for the theft component of auto insurance in BC was entirely the result of much higher than average vehicle thefts within a distance of a mile or so around the Skytrain line. The rest of BC, and even the rest of Greater Vancouver, did not have vehicle theft rates that were at all out of the ordinary.

I don't for one moment think you can blame this higher than average theft rate on the Skytrain technology per se. I would love to since I detest Skytrain, but that would be stretching an argrument too far. However, the way that system is operated in connection with fare collection, auto-pilot trains, etc. is conducive to moving theives and their loot around the metro area.
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Old June 23rd, 2006, 12:41 AM   #1169
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As noted in a previous post, the alternatives study for the Coquitlam/Evergreen Line can be found at the following link:

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pdf...cal_report.pdf

For the chosen corridor (Northwest Corridor via Barnet Highway), three technologies were in contention:

- Skytrain
- Light Rail
- Guided Rubber-Tired Trams (Translohr or Bombardier's GLT)

The construction costs and ridership were estimated as follows:

Peak Hourly Directional Demand (Table 7.1.1)
- Skytrain: 5900
- Light Rail: 2600
- GLT: 2200

Construction Cost (Table 7.2.1)
- Skytrain: $842.1 Million
- Light Rail: $701.1 Million
- GLT: $284.4 Million

Benefit to Cost Ratio (Table 8.1.1)
- Skytrain: 1.37
- Light Rail: 1.22
- GLT: 2.31

Part of the ridership advantage of Skytrain comes from passengers switching from West Coast Express trains. Much of the cost advantage of GLT comes from not having to build a tunnel to bypass a 12% grade on Clarke Road Hill.

It is interesting that light rail was chosen even though it didn't excel in any given area and it gave the lowest benefit to cost ratio.
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Old June 23rd, 2006, 08:38 AM   #1170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
For the sake of completensss, here's the other side of that BIV head to head:

Head to Head : Should Canada make greater use of immigrant guest workers to meet rising labour demand and increased labour shortages?

Jock Finlayson Yes

Foreign workers help tap boom timesand deepen pool of potential residents

I didn't include Jock Finlayson's part of this debate because he stuck to generalities, he didn't really address the particular issue of the wages paid to these tunneling workers.
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Old June 23rd, 2006, 08:41 PM   #1171
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Yeah, but with any polarized article, it's nice to have both perspectives.

WRT Canada Line construction - the City of Vancouver is removing (cutting down) street trees on Granville between Robson and Georgia in anticipation of station site excavation next month.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 02:08 AM   #1172
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$1000/month + room & board?

that's not so bad. at least near minimum wage.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 09:53 AM   #1173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonie
$1000/month + room & board?

that's not so bad. at least near minimum wage.
$1000/month and all those stuff may be allot for people from other countries, for example china. we may think its very little, but compared to them its allot.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 05:56 AM   #1174
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station length, only 40 meters?

Hello everybody, interesting thread to read for a public transport enthusiast like myself.

Regarding the Canada Line, I was quite surprised to find out that the stations will only be 40 metres long. That would make them the shortest stations in the world for a major metro line in a large city. Of course there are some airport terminal to terminal transit systems and monorails for tourist attractions that may have stations that are shorter but they don't really count as a real public transit system.
I've been to the Canada line information centre in vancouver and their reasoning was "difficulty in utility relocations prevent them from being longer"
I don't see how this would be any different in other cities that have built and are currently building or expanding metro systems. Most cities of Vancouver size have systems with stations 80-120 metres long.
It seems capacity will be reached quickly and it will be an uncomfortable, overcrowded system. Lengthening the stations after it is built seems like it would be a logistical nightmare and extremely expensive.
Can someone lend their expertise on this? Am I missing something?

Thanks
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Old June 27th, 2006, 07:12 AM   #1175
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^ you've basically said what we're all thinking. it's a huge mistake to build such small platforms.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 07:28 AM   #1176
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Is there any info on how long they expect the line to keep up to demands? Just curious.

If they can decide on another North - South route (Arbutus?), then it won't be so bad. I'd rather have two small capacity lines in different areas of the city than one heavy duty option.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 08:38 AM   #1177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73
Is there any info on how long they expect the line to keep up to demands? Just curious.

If they can decide on another North - South route (Arbutus?), then it won't be so bad. I'd rather have two small capacity lines in different areas of the city than one heavy duty option.
Well, they're projecting 150,000 passengers per day by 2020 which is about the same as today's Expo Line ridership. The Expo Line is 28 km long with 20 stations. The Canada Line is 19 km long with 16 stations and is projected to have a ridership of 100,000 in 2010. Given that we have congestion with Expo SkyTrain's 80 metre platforms ....you can definetely imagine what kind of congestion there will be at the Canada Line's 40 metre platforms in not 2020, but in 2010.

The problem is that Arbutus will be streetcar, not real light rapil transit.....and it wouldn't help unless the streetcar crosses over the Fraser and serves Richmond as well.

LOL, we may have to bring back the 98 B-Line in 2020. and we'll dig again along Cambie in 2020! poor poor merchants....



BTW, the Expo Line's projected 2010 daily ridership is 210,000. Quite a jump from 165,000 today. By 2020, its station platforms would too have to be extended.

The Canada Line trains are twice the length of the B-Line buses and nearly 3 times the capacity of these buses.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 09:57 AM   #1178
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ok so wait the expo line is skytrain, what about the millenium line?

and the canada line is moslty undergroung, turning into elevated at its southernmost points, correct? and its not very high capacity?

sorry but ima complete foreigner and i think i'm pretty well-informed given that.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 10:16 AM   #1179
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Both the Expo and Millennium Line are SkyTrain. At Expo's Columbia Station, there are track switches which lead to the Millennium Line otherwise you would cross SkyBridge and head to Surrey.

Regarding the Canada Line.......10 km of it (from Waterfront Station to Marine Drive Station) is underground while 7 km south of that is elevated and 2 km is at-grade at the airport. It has a maximum system capacity of 15,000 ppdph with a maximum frequency of 90 seconds in Vancouver and 180 secs at the Richmond and Airport spurs, with its maximum 50 metre platforms (expanded from 40 metres) allowing for a two-20 metre car and one-10 metre car train (20 metre cars have 160 passenger capacity.....10 metre cars have 80 passenger capacity. total is 400 passengers/train).

With both SkyTrain lines, the maximum system capacity is 25,000 pphpd with a maximum frequency of 90 secs, with 80 metre station platforms (btw, they can be expandable to 104 metres).






The problem with the Canada Line is its platforms. 40 metres, expandable to 50 metres, is way too short and thus does not allow for more cars other than 2-cars (40 metres) or 3-cars (50 metres).
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Old June 27th, 2006, 07:27 PM   #1180
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Forgive me if this is not feasible, its just an idea. I'm not too sure of Vancouver's geology or geography, but anyway, about the Arbutus line, or whatever someone else mentioned earlier... Would it have been better for the original RAV to have been built like this?



Repeat: Not official map from BC Transit or the transit authority in Vancouver, its just an idea.


To distinguish the Richmond side, I just called it the Delta line. Could possibly connect to the Millenium Line at Arbutus. In effect, the line would be like what the Millenium did to the original network, doubling back in a way. I guess not feasible eh? But would it have helped reduce congestion on the Marine Drive - Waterfront section?
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