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Old June 13th, 2005, 04:47 AM   #101
ssiguy2
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Premier Campbell also refused it to go down Arbutus becuase its too wealthy and would hurt his constituents.
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Old June 13th, 2005, 07:57 AM   #102
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A few notes:

RAV is third rail light metro - not Bombardier's Skytrain, but similar.

Automation technology is independent of the propulsion technology. LRT can be automated, but would still have to be in an exclusive Right-of-Way to avoid hitting cars. SNC-Lavalin's alternate proposal proposed a hybrid system that could be manually operated on No. 3 Rd - but was rejected because the cost was too high (the bids were for a "DBOM" contract covering design, build, operate (LRT has drivers!) and maintain).

Cambie was chosen because it has more passenger destinations within the City of Vancouver than Arbutus does. The Arbutus Right-of-Way is owned by the CPR and would need to be purchased. The Arbutus Right-of-Way is also being reserved by the City of Vancouver for an expansion of the False Creek streetcar. The "creme de la creme" caused the Arbutus Right-of-Way to be rezoned by the City of Vancouver to prohibit an elevated rail line along it. Cambie also provides a more direct route to Richmond - remember the line is chiefly the Richmond line - the Airport component is a spur.

After RAV was defeated at the Translink Board, the City of Vancouver made it known that it would not even consider an at-grade down Cambie Street option due to traffic interruption. That caused some board members (who were holding out hope for a cheaper alternative) to change their votes.

The "Cambie Heritage Boulevard" is fiercely protected by heritage advocates in the City of Vancouver (as well as the City of Vancouver itself).

The SNC Lavalin bid for RAV places the tunnel under the northbound roadway - not under the median. There is also a large BC Hydro line under the median that would require costly relocation if an at-grade or trench or cut and cover option were used in the median. The only place where the median will be impacted will be at the 64th Ave portal - but the curb lanes will be removed to create new greenspace to compensate.

Bombardier's rejected bids avoided tunneling south of 49th Ave. since it proposed an open trench in the median (with a bored tunnel north of that). Its bids were higher than SNC-Lavalin's bids, so it was rejected.

By going with SNC-Lavalin's bid, we got more tunnel at lower cost than Bombardier's open trench. That's because SNC-Lavalin lowered costs with the shallower cut and cover construction and with precast tunnel segments.

WRT Millennium Line ridership, here's an excerpt from Translink's May 9, 2005 board report indicating Spring 2005 daily ridership at 59,1000 versus projected 2006 daily ridership of 75,000 (which assumed the Coquitlam line was operational in 2006). Spring 2003 ridership was 43,900-44,900 - a sizable increase over 2 years.
The Millennium Line was built to shape growth, not serve existing growth.
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Old June 13th, 2005, 08:08 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
I know there are some driverless subways but the RAV is going down a low density road.........single family if you can beleive it.
Translink is throwing good money after bad.
May I remind you that expo line was built along a less dense corridor and it has lead to massive development around each station so much so that the Expo line alone now carries close to 1million people a week. Look at the construction along M-Line in just the last few years that it has been running. You can guaranteed that by 2020 several dozen highrises will be built along Cambie, I think Oak Ridge will become like anouther metro town.
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Old June 13th, 2005, 09:54 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda
May I remind you that expo line was built along a less dense corridor and it has lead to massive development around each station so much so that the Expo line alone now carries close to 1million people a week. Look at the construction along M-Line in just the last few years that it has been running. You can guaranteed that by 2020 several dozen highrises will be built along Cambie, I think Oak Ridge will become like anouther metro town.
Oakridge will for sure turn into another Metrotown, and hopefully they will tear down the whole Oakridge complex and build something new and spectacular (better than Aberdeen) with a bigger shopping centre, more parking (but only either underground or stacked), a lot of condos, and office towers - note that all of this is in site, not off site).
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Old June 13th, 2005, 11:58 AM   #105
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I predict mid-rises for Oakridge (10-15 stories max).

The City of Vancouver is (overly) sensitive to neighbourhood concerns regarding densification and I don't see it changing its approach drastically. i.e. Broadway & Commercial is not densely developed for fear of disrupting the neighbourhood. The City of Vancouver has only allowed significant rezoning and densification where industrial lands have been converted to residential (Joyce & Main Street) or high tech office (VCC, Renfrew & Rupert). In any other City, there would be a forest of highrises at a transit node like Broadway & Commercial - in the City of Vancouver they've prevented it - possibly fostering the decline that plagued/plagues the area.

I can also see the rental walk-ups along Cambie between 16th and King Ed replaced by Arbutus Lands type developments - 6-10 storey blocks. I think Olive (and Pacifica before it) are representative of what will be built.

Richmond will densify, and already has some plans for the Bridgeport Station area. There are also a number of developments planned for No. 3 Rd (Acqua, Paloma).
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Old June 13th, 2005, 06:32 PM   #106
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No one is thinking here. Yes, it it a lot of money, but skytrain is expensive. ssiguy2, you say that Van and Richmond are growing at only 0.8% per year but what, isnt that a current stat? What a stupid thing to bring up! Do you not think that with a city holding the olympics, our population will not grow? Or for another example, our new convention centre will alone be hosting 20,000 more people per week. Or what about the fact that planned expansions of the airport are underway. A direct link to the airport to downtown is VITAL! Would you rather have a freeway down the Cambie corridor? Not going to happen. What about a LRT system that would work well in other cities, but terribly in Vancouver? No, what a waste of money! Or would u rahter stick to what we have now, a unbelievably terrible road system that will just get worse and worse wiith the growth of the city. No one is thinking about Vancouver's future! It is said (and i agree) that van has had terrible planning in the past. Well RAV will relieve that immensly. Stop comparring RAV to millenium. Millenium DOSE NOT have a connection with an airport! Cutting a ribbon in front of a skytrain may look good on a camera, but its ridiculous to think that when we ALREADY HAVE skytrain, we would go and build something totally different. I do not think RAV is perfect. There are many flaws that can and should be changed. For instance, instead of people getting RAV thrown away, how about we do something smart for a change and demand gates in the terminals. Isn't that was DO RAV RIGHT is for?
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Old June 13th, 2005, 11:31 PM   #107
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First, 70,000/passenegers a day by 2012 is AWFUL ridership! Why? because 30,000 oif those passengers will not be new. They are redirectingy all the downtown routes to go via RAV. The heavily used Granville#9 route will be diverted over to the RAV so it will take people in Marpole {the only med-hi density area} LONGER to get downtown than it does now.
Second, they are using it for a Richmond Commuter line not for Vancouverites. If they were they would have a stop at 16th. But no, its a whopping 16 blocks between stations. If you said to anyone in any other city that you were building a $1.8bil line "rapid Transit" and have 16blocks between ststion in the city they would think you were nuts.
Second, Cambie Street has a lot of poplitical power base. The city agreed that no further hi density development would be allowed along the whole stretch. It is NOT like the EXPO line that primarily followed the rail line and could be rezoned. There will not be ANY highrise develpoment along the Vancouver stretch.
Third, $1.8bil for 70,000 passengers?.........Lets say it someday hits 100,000 passengers well that still lousy ridership. Calgary's CTrain has 42km, 220,000passengers/day, {same as SkyTrain} serves a population half the size and has only cost $640mil {that's MILLION not BILLION}. It goes to major employment centres and is BETTER for people in the inner city as it has many more stops.
Fourth, Richmond will never have the same density as Metrotown because of the height restrictions on buildings due to the airport.

RAV is a great idea perse but the cost is ouitrageous for 40,000 passengers a day. Like I said, even if it hits 100,000 that is still lousy ridership.
If they really need something to do with their money it should be ext the Millenium line to Dunbar as it is a high density area.

Translink always gets things ass-backwards. You build rapid transit for the city not the suburbs and then work your way out. SkyTrain is, in many ways, just very frequent commuter rail.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 01:28 AM   #108
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Couple of things -

There's no station at 16th because it's not technically feasible. The slope is too steep. If you require a station there with a long flat platform, the station at King Edward would have to be a lot deeper to lessen the grade between the stations - that would also make a station at 33rd Ave. too deep and too expensive (since it's solid rock there). The current proposal includes a shallow future station at 33rd Ave., which is slated to get a new bus route to UBC. Besides, with all the complaints of disruption at Cambie and 16th, do you really think the area businesses would tolerate the additional disruption for a cast-in-place station?

As for densification on Cambie, Oakridge is going to be densified - not necessarily in tall highrises, but it will still be denser than it is now. Info is available at this link:

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/comm...idge/index.htm

A link to the broader Oakridge-Langara policy from the late 1990s is also at that link.

49th Ave. station is up in the air for densification. I could see townhouses (there's already a townhouse complex on the SE corner).
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Old June 14th, 2005, 01:42 AM   #109
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On a different note. I understand that SNCLAVALIN got the contract and will NOT be SkyTrain tech. Does anyone have a photo or link of the new rail cars?
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:17 AM   #110
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70,000 passengers per day is based on what? That stat is most likely excluding major events that i have already talked about. You continuously use ideas from present day for instance the fact that it would be longer for commuters that take Granville9. RAV wil not be completed over night. It will be in 2009 when those Granville9 busses will be gridlocked in traffic along with every other commuter.

Now you say the fact that RAV isn't for Vancouverites? Many routes will be cancelled and diverted to the Richmond end of RAV. Well, its the same thing on the other side! Plus, the downtown end of RAV is connected to Millenium! People living in Burnaby may use RAV to either get to the airport or Richmond. I did some research and found out the major destinations in Vancouver and Richmond for Airport users. Guess what, RAV goes where ever they want to go and that includes the Cambie corridor. So, the people comming in; using RAV will leave using RAV. Do people in Vancouver not comumute to Richmond and the airport? Hmm i didn't know that was true. Saying that the line is not for people in Vancouver is definately not true.

Cambie will most likely be developed. With a big mall, many businesses and a college, i'm sure it will. Plus, that means even more users of the line.

It is not fair to compare RAV with CTrain. RAV is rapid transit. CTrain is a slow ass slug. Rapid transit is expensive. LRT is cheap. Rapid transit would work excellent in Vancouver, Airport and Richmond. LRT wouldn't do the job and would probably even make matters worse.

Calgary's ridership is not 220,000. It is more around 190,000. CTrain pays out MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars per year for operational costs, operational costs that rapid transit dosn't have. Also, CTrain covers a more broader area while both skytrain routes mainly jut out to more specific areas. Do not compare the two, especially when Vancouver, Richmond and the Airport can't handle LRT.

Richmond will get denser. I think many people will agree with me when i say that height is not a requirement when it comes to density. Just look at all of the apartments that are going up there... and there will only be more.

Finally, RAV is not only about Richmond and Vancouver. Greater Vancouver MUST think as a unit if we want to move forward in the future. It will also lead to many other project such as extending the line to other areas that are rapidly growing and possibly even a ferry terminal at the airport since there will be such a good connection there.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:26 AM   #111
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Lavalin had participation in every single skytrain project in the past. What is so different now that they had been awarded the contract?
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:27 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
On a different note. I understand that SNCLAVALIN got the contract and will NOT be SkyTrain tech. Does anyone have a photo or link of the new rail cars?
They haven't released renderings of the new rail cars.......but here's Manila's automated LRT built by SNC Lavalin in 1998:





and London's automated DLR:



Credits: queetz.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:29 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jer4893
Lavalin had participation in every single skytrain project in the past. What is so different now that they had been awarded the contract?
They are in charge of building and designing this line 100%. The other two lines in the city were automated linear technology, this time around it's third-rail.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:32 AM   #114
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I cannot picture those in Vancouver. Hopefully it is more like the one in london (DLR).
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:38 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jer4893
I cannot picture those in Vancouver. Hopefully it is more like the one in london (DLR).

But of course, the trains would look a lot better. Definetely a lot more aerodynamic, somewhere along the lines of the Mark II and NYC's Air Train.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:44 AM   #116
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Well, that's not that bad at all.... looks good.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:48 AM   #117
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I would think that the design will be close to that of the current MK II skytrains, so as not to differ greatly from the current trains in service. I am personally glad that there wont be a station on 16th, as it will probably bring more crime; unless they install gates.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:53 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zivan56
I would think that the design will be close to that of the current MK II skytrains, so as not to differ greatly from the current trains in service. I am personally glad that there wont be a station on 16th, as it will probably bring more crime; unless they install gates.
That's NIMBY thinking. What if everybody around those 18 stations are thinking that too?

I'm dissapointed that there isn't a station at 16th avenue. It would attract more ridership there. It doesn't make sense to have such a huge gap between the Broadway and King Edward Stations.
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Old June 14th, 2005, 02:56 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jer4893
Well, that's not that bad at all.... looks good.
Airtrain




Only in difference between the Airtrain would be that there could be a connection between the two trains like the Mark II's we currently have.


Mark II SkyTrain
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Old June 14th, 2005, 03:01 AM   #120
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^ I hope we get something simmilar to the middle rendering, it looks similar to the current Mk II
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