VANCOUVER | Public Transport

[mrtfreak]

I was just wondering, did they explore the option of placing the Evergreen line underground before deciding to go for Light Rail instead? If so, I guess the costs would not have justified the line being built eh?

[mr.x]

^ no. but about 2 km of the line will be underground because of steep grades.

[mrtfreak]

I see, which part of the line is that at? Why did they choose Light Rail over underground SkyTrain. Sorry, not really clear about it. Seems to be such a waste to have that extra platform at Lougheed to me.

[matthewcs]

It was meant to be a skytrain, funding was even lined up (about as well as it is now, but still) and then the NIMBY's came. People decided that having a elevated train running through "downtown" Port Moody would ruin the small town ambiance. You know, like a 6 lane highway doesn't already....I personally think its increadable short sighted, but o well. Now we wait and see if NIMBY's will keep Translink from building stations near schools because of "hoodlems".

It will be underground from Como lake/Clarke until St. Johns/Barnet (by the old strip club [hurrah small town ambiance!]). It's done like that because the grade is so steep.

I still don't understand why they want to run it along St Johns though. There's a CPR alignment like 200m North of it that runs the whole route.

[Smelser]

Originally Posted by matthewcs

It was meant to be a skytrain, funding was even lined up (about as well as it is now, but still) and then the NIMBY's came. People decided that having a elevated train running through "downtown" Port Moody would ruin the small town ambiance. You know, like a 6 lane highway doesn't already....I personally think its increadable short sighted, but o well. Now we wait and see if NIMBY's will keep Translink from building stations near schools because of "hoodlems".

I don't think one can blame this decision on citizen protesters. Translink had Delcan, a well-known Canadian company, and some others do an analysis of alternatives and conventional LRT was chosen.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pdf...cal_report.pdf

It concluded that while Skytrain had the highest benefits it also had the biggest capital costs and the biggest urban visual impacts. LRT had somewhat lower benefits, but also lower costs, but higher enviromental impacts if a southeast approach to Coquitlam were chosen.

You mention a six-lane highway. Some 15 or so years ago when the Barnet highway was widened to four lanes, and into the 1990s as well, there was talk of a Port Moody bypass. It would link the Barnet highway in the west to the Barnet-Lougheed alignment at the east side of Port Moody along the waterfront-industrial area, and the entire route could eventually be upgraded to freeway status with the elimination of commercial accessess and intersections and their replacement with interchanges and a frontage road. What has happened to this proposal?

Finally, I have to admit that I have some sympathy for your dreaded Nimby's on at least one point, the hoodlums and general criminal element that are believed to hover around the Skytrain system. I think it's quite apparent that the Expo line at least has, for whatever reasons, become a conduit for thieves who have a major drug habit to support. Some years ago I recall a presentation by an ICBC official who stated that the higher premiums for the theft component of auto insurance in BC was entirely the result of much higher than average vehicle thefts within a distance of a mile or so around the Skytrain line. The rest of BC, and even the rest of Greater Vancouver, did not have vehicle theft rates that were at all out of the ordinary.

I don't for one moment think you can blame this higher than average theft rate on the Skytrain technology per se. I would love to since I detest Skytrain, but that would be stretching an argrument too far. However, the way that system is operated in connection with fare collection, auto-pilot trains, etc. is conducive to moving theives and their loot around the metro area.

[greg_christine]

As noted in a previous post, the alternatives study for the Coquitlam/Evergreen Line can be found at the following link:

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pdf...cal_report.pdf

For the chosen corridor (Northwest Corridor via Barnet Highway), three technologies were in contention:

- Skytrain
- Light Rail
- Guided Rubber-Tired Trams (Translohr or Bombardier's GLT)

The construction costs and ridership were estimated as follows:

Peak Hourly Directional Demand (Table 7.1.1)
- Skytrain: 5900
- Light Rail: 2600
- GLT: 2200

Construction Cost (Table 7.2.1)
- Skytrain: $842.1 Million
- Light Rail: $701.1 Million
- GLT: $284.4 Million

Benefit to Cost Ratio (Table 8.1.1)
- Skytrain: 1.37
- Light Rail: 1.22
- GLT: 2.31

Part of the ridership advantage of Skytrain comes from passengers switching from West Coast Express trains. Much of the cost advantage of GLT comes from not having to build a tunnel to bypass a 12% grade on Clarke Road Hill.

It is interesting that light rail was chosen even though it didn't excel in any given area and it gave the lowest benefit to cost ratio.

[alta-bc]

Ok, here are some unusual questions about skytrain:

1. What causes the 3 tone sound that the MKI trains make when they accelerate and decelerate? And being powered by LIMs, motors without moving parts, why are they so noisy? I've been on many metro system around the world and the MKI trains are definitley the noisiest during accelaration and decelaration.

2. During construction of the Millenium Line, a short section of the Expo line guideway was strengthened to accomodate the heavier MKII trains. This section was between Main street and the Home Depot. The horizontal beams had some additional croncrete added to them right where it joins the column. Why was only such a short stretch strengthened? Was that particular stretch actually weaker than the rest of the guideway?

3. MKII trains have air conditioning, yet the windows are openable. Why is that? (I noticed that they have now put stickers on the windows saying to only open them up in emergencies.)

Thanks

[dchengg]

Originally Posted by alta-bc

Ok, here are some unusual questions about skytrain:

1. What causes the 3 tone sound that the MKI trains make when they accelerate and decelerate? And being powered by LIMs, motors without moving parts, why are they so noisy? I've been on many metro system around the world and the MKI trains are definitley the noisiest during accelaration and decelaration.

2. During construction of the Millenium Line, a short section of the Expo line guideway was strengthened to accomodate the heavier MKII trains. This section was between Main street and the Home Depot. The horizontal beams had some additional croncrete added to them right where it joins the column. Why was only such a short stretch strengthened? Was that particular stretch actually weaker than the rest of the guideway?

3. MKII trains have air conditioning, yet the windows are openable. Why is that? (I noticed that they have now put stickers on the windows saying to only open them up in emergencies.)

Thanks

im only a 14yearold so i may not answer it right

1. the 3 tone sound maybe just another tape recorded tone

2. they strengthed that part maybe is beacuse there are two turns there that are a little tilted

3. i think you have basically answered it yourself, sometimes its for emergency ventalation? just incase of fire..

[OettingerCroat]

Originally Posted by alta-bc

3. MKII trains have air conditioning, yet the windows are openable. Why is that? (I noticed that they have now put stickers on the windows saying to only open them up in emergencies.)

yes its for emergencies.

you may remember the horrible day in November 2000 in Karpun, Austria, when a disaster happened to a funicular railway. heaters not legal for use on vehicles were installed to heat the passenger compartment, then steaming hot condensation trickled down from the head of the train (funiculars are all sloped remember, so gravity can affect a whole bunch of crap) and set the hydraulic fluid, used to open one of the doors, on fire, in the empty drivers cabin at the bottom of the train.

the loss in hydraulic pressure halted ALL doors from opening. so nearly 180 passengers were stuck on the train as the doors couldnt open. at this point their only way of escape was by breaking the BREAK-PROOF plexiglass windows. one brave man towards the bottom of the train took his ski pole and shattered a large window, enabling the ppl at the bottom of the train to get out safely, and they ran towards the bottom end of the tunnel. however, there were only 12 people that made it out this way.

finally the driver was able to get the doors to manually be opened, and the remaining 150+ passengers poured into the tunnel. but as the fire had by now completely blocked off exit towards the bottom, the passengers stuck in the upper part of the train could only travel UP the tunnel. however, the tunnel was acting like a chimney now, sucking up all the oxygen from the bottom of the tunnel and sending the extremely toxic and fatal fumes upwards, where all the passengers were making their way up to the end of the tunnel. out of the 150+ passengers who fled upwards, they all choked to death on the toxic fumes. People at the station at the top of the tunnel died too. the fire was now raging wildly, at temperatures over 1000 degrees, and they completely neutralized the remains of the victims and what was left of the train. in total 155 people perished, just like that.

so if you're curious why air conditioned cars have opening windows, it is for safety reasons.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by alta-bc

Ok, here are some unusual questions about skytrain:

1. What causes the 3 tone sound that the MKI trains make when they accelerate and decelerate? And being powered by LIMs, motors without moving parts, why are they so noisy? I've been on many metro system around the world and the MKI trains are definitley the noisiest during accelaration and decelaration.

2. During construction of the Millenium Line, a short section of the Expo line guideway was strengthened to accomodate the heavier MKII trains. This section was between Main street and the Home Depot. The horizontal beams had some additional croncrete added to them right where it joins the column. Why was only such a short stretch strengthened? Was that particular stretch actually weaker than the rest of the guideway?

3. MKII trains have air conditioning, yet the windows are openable. Why is that? (I noticed that they have now put stickers on the windows saying to only open them up in emergencies.)

Thanks

The sound comes from the power conversion unit in the MKIs - the MKIIs use a different model of power converter, so no sound.

The part of the elevated guideway that needed strengthening was the "demonstration line" built before the rest of the line was built.

The air conditioning in the MKII cars only takes the temperature down to ambient temperature - the temperature outside the trains - so you can open the windows without straining the air conditioning system.

[Xusein]

The skytrain has some of the nicest trains in North America...

Looks like NYC's JFK airport Airtrain.

[mrtfreak]

^ That's cause the NY AirTrain uses the Advanced Rapid Transit system, which is the same as Vancouver's SkyTrain, and Bombardier was contracted to build the cars. Those are the MKII cars, as are the KL Putraline trains. Only, the NY cars come in single unarticulated cars.

KL's Putraline (Kelana Jaya line):

*Line is now run by RAPIDkl and logo has been changed.

[mr.x]

Vancouver's Mark II SkyTrain cars

[OettingerCroat]

those are very very very good looking trains. 9.5/10 in my opinion. if they just had a 3rd, intermediate coach, they'd be an untouchable 10/10. the colors, the shape, the windows, everything is perfect, they just need to be a wee bit longer.

[alta-bc]

The air conditioning in the MKII cars only takes the temperature down to ambient temperature - the temperature outside the trains - so you can open the windows without straining the air conditioning system.

hmmmm.... I've been on MKII trains on a hot day, it seemed alot cooler inside the trains than outside. Most trains on other systems that have air conditioning don't have openable windows, like NY's MKII cars or Toronto's subway. Plus, the windows on Vancouver's MKII trains aren't large enough to escape out of in case of fire. Also, opening a window during a fire on a train may not help, it may make it even worse by allowing more oxygen in.

Anyways, I don't mean to slag the skytrain, it's just an observation. I actually really like the MKII cars, they are such a HUGE improvement over the MKI trains.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by alta-bc

hmmmm.... I've been on MKII trains on a hot day, it seemed alot cooler inside the trains than outside. Most trains on other systems that have air conditioning don't have openable windows, like NY's MKII cars or Toronto's subway.

That's what I read either in the Buzzer or in the newspaper one time - can't recall where exactly. It could have been one of those complaint columns where reader write in complaining about others - but here the response was that you could open the windows without harming the air conditioning.

[dchengg]

Originally Posted by OettingerCroat

those are very very very good looking trains. 9.5/10 in my opinion. if they just had a 3rd, intermediate coach, they'd be an untouchable 10/10. the colors, the shape, the windows, everything is perfect, they just need to be a wee bit longer.

sometimes during rush hours, they connect two of those to make one long one~~

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by dchengg

sometimes during rush hours, they connect two of those to make one long one~~

what he actually means is a third car in the middle of the existing two-car trains.

[OettingerCroat]

Originally Posted by mr.x

what he actually means is a third car in the middle of the existing two-car trains.

right. a three-section train. three sections would give it a more massive, "important", "major league" feel.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by OettingerCroat

right. a three-section train. three sections would give it a more massive, "important", "major league" feel.

Three-car trains are possible with extended Canada Line platforms (from 40 metres to 50 metres). Car A: 20 metres; Car C: 10 metres; Car B: 20 metres