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Old June 27th, 2006, 07:31 PM   #1181
OettingerCroat
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and evergreen line is a tram line right?
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Old June 27th, 2006, 07:35 PM   #1182
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well guys this is a respectable transit network! ive always loved vancouver
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Old June 27th, 2006, 08:05 PM   #1183
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ok i noe that you can drive near boundary bay to board a car ferry to sidney/victoria, which is guess is very practical becausemost people go to Vancouver Island with their cars anyway so they can go wherever they want. but is there any "high-speed" ferry ( ) that can be taken from the city waterfront to Victoria, more for regular commuters?
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Old June 27th, 2006, 09:03 PM   #1184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtfreak
Forgive me if this is not feasible, its just an idea. I'm not too sure of Vancouver's geology or geography, but anyway, about the Arbutus line, or whatever someone else mentioned earlier... Would it have been better for the original RAV to have been built like this?



Repeat: Not official map from BC Transit or the transit authority in Vancouver, its just an idea.


To distinguish the Richmond side, I just called it the Delta line. Could possibly connect to the Millenium Line at Arbutus. In effect, the line would be like what the Millenium did to the original network, doubling back in a way. I guess not feasible eh? But would it have helped reduce congestion on the Marine Drive - Waterfront section?

No, that wouldn't work well. It would be extremely expensive to build the line along Arbutus and along Cambie and you from YVR-Airport you can't turn north because you've got runways and the airport terminal.

I'm actually more concerned about the entire route from Waterfront to Richmond Centre (not concerned about YVR). Platforms are only 40 metres long (trains are 41 metres long) and with a peak 2009 frequency of 3 minutes in Vancouver and 6 minutes at Richmond (which is less frequent than the current 98 B-Line).
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Old June 27th, 2006, 09:09 PM   #1185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat
and evergreen line is a tram line right?
it's supposedly an LRT line, but it's gonna have more streetcar characteristics than rapid transit as it won't have traffic signal priority at several intersections. in other words, an expensive $800 million streetcar; big mistake. more like $1 billion though when inflation in labour and materials is included.

it's 11 km (2 km tunnel, 4 km elevated, 5 km at-grade) with 10 stations and a peak frequency of 6 minutes. it's a 20+ minute ride from terminus to terminus.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old June 27th, 2006, 09:37 PM   #1186
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peak frequency means the minimum time between two trains pulling into the same station right?
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Old June 27th, 2006, 09:49 PM   #1187
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frequency = headway = time between trains

"peak" means "peak hours" = "rush hour"
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Old June 28th, 2006, 12:03 AM   #1188
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thx
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Old June 28th, 2006, 12:06 AM   #1189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
it's supposedly an LRT line, but it's gonna have more streetcar characteristics than rapid transit as it won't have traffic signal priority at several intersections. in other words, an expensive $800 million streetcar; big mistake. more like $1 billion though when inflation in labour and materials is included.
thats alright, trams look much better on the street than light rail does.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 01:10 AM   #1190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat
thats alright, trams look much better on the street than light rail does.
we're paying $800 million for a 11 km streetcar?
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Old June 28th, 2006, 01:17 AM   #1191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonie
$1000/month + room & board?

that's not so bad. at least near minimum wage.
I assume you're joking.

Given a 40 hour week this would amount to $6.25 per hour. The BC minimum wage is $8.00 per hour.

More importantly, how can these be sophisticated, high skilled workers, and yet be earning poverty level wages? It is Canadian policy not to allow foreign workers to come to this country on temporary permits unless the wages offered are comparable to the prevailing norms in Canada. IOWs, if carpenters are now earning $30 per hour because of the construction boom, an employer will not be allowed to cut costs by bringing in workers from another country and paying them $20 per hour, let alone a wage that is below the minimum. That's to make sure that foreign workers are not being used to undermine Canadian wages and working conditions.

So why is the RAV line contractor being allowed to pay these kinds of wages? Is this some kind of sweetheart arrangment designed to make the RAV line P3 numbers work out?
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Old June 28th, 2006, 02:26 AM   #1192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
I assume you're joking.

Given a 40 hour week this would amount to $6.25 per hour. The BC minimum wage is $8.00 per hour.
Since when does your average minimum wage job provide room & board (maybe transportation too)? that's got to be worth a minimum of an additional $600/month in Vancouver, which would push it comortably above minimum wage.

Now exactly how the HRSDC (or BC Ministry of Labour) figured that is a reasonable wage for the job, I don't know, but (hopefully) they did due diligence. if anyone is really responsible for this, it should be them, not the contractor.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 06:20 AM   #1193
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So the most stations will be 40 metres long, with some being 50 metres?

Another questions is, are the stations being built with lengthening in mind. For example, side platform stations can be relatively easily lengthened, unless the track curves or has an incline immediately before or after the station. The downtown stations look like center platforms. It is hard to tell, but do the tunnels taper closer together after leaving the station? The drawings show that the tracks stay parallel throughtout the downtown core which would be somewhat unusual, but that would definitely make expansion easier. If they end up tapering closer together before and after the stations like most systems in the world then that would make expansion almost impossible. False creek station seems to be a bit of an oddball with a taper throughout the station.

Anyways, my guess for the short stations is that this is a fixed price project, the government does not want another Fast Ferries at their hand and this would be one way to cut costs. There is no law stating what a platform length should be, but there are laws and obligations to make the system accessible for example, so they can't save money on NOT installing elevators or escalators. This is just purely my two cents on why they are doing it this way - I'd be very happy to hear other theories or maybe even facts!
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Old June 28th, 2006, 06:52 AM   #1194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
we're paying $800 million for a 11 km streetcar?
hey all i said was that the vehicles themselves LOOK better

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Old June 28th, 2006, 07:29 AM   #1195
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^ lol. ok, good.

not neccessarily though. i've seen LRT trains in Europe that have huge windows and sleek designs.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

Last edited by mr.x; June 28th, 2006 at 07:43 AM.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 07:42 AM   #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
So the most stations will be 40 metres long, with some being 50 metres?

Another questions is, are the stations being built with lengthening in mind. For example, side platform stations can be relatively easily lengthened, unless the track curves or has an incline immediately before or after the station. The downtown stations look like center platforms. It is hard to tell, but do the tunnels taper closer together after leaving the station? The drawings show that the tracks stay parallel throughtout the downtown core which would be somewhat unusual, but that would definitely make expansion easier. If they end up tapering closer together before and after the stations like most systems in the world then that would make expansion almost impossible. False creek station seems to be a bit of an oddball with a taper throughout the station.

Anyways, my guess for the short stations is that this is a fixed price project, the government does not want another Fast Ferries at their hand and this would be one way to cut costs. There is no law stating what a platform length should be, but there are laws and obligations to make the system accessible for example, so they can't save money on NOT installing elevators or escalators. This is just purely my two cents on why they are doing it this way - I'd be very happy to hear other theories or maybe even facts!

ALL stations will be at least 40 metres in length, with several stations over 40 including some at 50 metres (such as Richmond Centre). All stations, if not already, have the capability to be immediately expandable to 50 metres.

At Waterfront Statio in downtown, it looks as if you could expand the platform double its size to 80 metres because it stays parallel, doesn't converge.

Yaletown Station may be challenging to expand its platform since i think (i bet) that the tunnel immediately dives down under False Creek. and it ascends after the station (guessing).

Vancouver City Centre Station looks like it can be expanded to at least 80 metres. There's a slight grade change throughout the platform and north of the platform.



Not necessarily. The gov't, unlike Fast Ferries, is not responsible for overruns. The private sector, responsible for design, building, and 35 years of operating is responsible for ALL overruns after the original $1.72 billion budget. The private sector is currently covering $300 milllion of overruns, bringing their share to $700 million - by far the most of the five funding sources.
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"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:37 AM   #1197
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The short answer is that InTransitBC is building to the required specification they are contracted to build - not overbuilding, nor accommodating for future expansion beyond that specification if it would add costs to their bottom line. I think that the slopes of the tunnel near some of the Cambie Stations will prevent lengthy extensions of those platforms.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:39 AM   #1198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
The short answer is that InTransitBC is building to the required specification they are contracted to build - not overbuilding, nor accommodating for future expansion beyond that specification if it would add costs to their bottom line. I think that the slopes of the tunnel near some of the Cambie Stations will prevent lengthy extensions of those platforms.
these being Olympic Village Station and Broadway-City Hall Station.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:25 PM   #1199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonie
Since when does your average minimum wage job provide room & board (maybe transportation too)? that's got to be worth a minimum of an additional $600/month in Vancouver, which would push it comortably above minimum wage.

Now exactly how the HRSDC (or BC Ministry of Labour) figured that is a reasonable wage for the job, I don't know, but (hopefully) they did due diligence. if anyone is really responsible for this, it should be them, not the contractor.
Under the foreign worker policy an employer is required to make sure that affordable accommodation is available. That can mean supplying such, or showing that there is plenty around that can be afforded by the workers in question. In any case, I don't think room and board should be considered part of the issue of comparable wage rates, since Canadian workers would not be eligible for paid room and board in any circumstance, save the far north. So leave that out and just compare the hourly wages, and on that basis it's obvious that these wages are lower than anything seen in Canada for skilled or even semi-skilled construction workers on engineering type work at any time in at least the last quarter century.

You say "due diligence". It looks to me like the P3 contractor is being given highly preferential treatment. Could it be that someone wants to avoid some embarassing demand for more money?
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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:30 PM   #1200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
Not necessarily. The gov't, unlike Fast Ferries, is not responsible for overruns. The private sector, responsible for design, building, and 35 years of operating is responsible for ALL overruns after the original $1.72 billion budget. The private sector is currently covering $300 milllion of overruns, bringing their share to $700 million - by far the most of the five funding sources.

Isn't $300 million the amount of the overrun on the Pacificats project? Of course, that would be a lower percentage on a much larger project, but that's just the first overrun.

Also, isn't the contractor guaranteed a certain ridership, and if that doesn't materialize, the taxpayer pays the fares of those phantom passengers to the private party?
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