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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:32 PM   #1201
mr.x
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the line is projected to have 100,000 passengers per day. if there's a shortfall, Translink is responsible for 90% and the private sector, 10%.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:44 PM   #1202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
Under the foreign worker policy an employer is required to make sure that affordable accommodation is available. That can mean supplying such, or showing that there is plenty around that can be afforded by the workers in question. In any case, I don't think room and board should be considered part of the issue of comparable wage rates, since Canadian workers would not be eligible for paid room and board in any circumstance, save the far north. So leave that out and just compare the hourly wages, and on that basis it's obvious that these wages are lower than anything seen in Canada for skilled or even semi-skilled construction workers on engineering type work at any time in at least the last quarter century.

You say "due diligence". It looks to me like the P3 contractor is being given highly preferential treatment. Could it be that someone wants to avoid some embarassing demand for more money?
Yes, obviously, wages seem low for the job (below minimum? that's debatable). Is some hanky panky going on? We can't tell for sure. So far the Canada Line project has passed all its reviews and audits with flying colours. If there actually are sordid details to discover, the auditor general's final audit should dig them up.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 01:33 AM   #1203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
the line is projected to have 100,000 passengers per day. if there's a shortfall, Translink is responsible for 90% and the private sector, 10%.
Right. Nearly the entire risk in terms of eventual revenue is being borne, even according to the agreement, by the taxpayer. All but the last ten percent.

As for the risk of unprecedented construction cost overruns, if for example a continuing boom in China or more hurricane disasters in America were to push up materials prices even further, I haven't read the agreement and don't plan to.

However, as a matter of ordinary common sense, the private partner is not going to keep on digging tunnels regardless. At some point, with enough negative developments on the cost front, they will stop work until the terms are changed, and have their lawyers dispose of whatever paper penalties may be coming their way.

But what are the governments going to do? Sit there with a partly finished RAV line that's cost them over a billion dollars and is still not able to carry any passengers with the Olympics due to come to town? Who would be in the weaker bargaining position? Clearly it's the public sector.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 02:08 AM   #1204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
Right. Nearly the entire risk in terms of eventual revenue is being borne, even according to the agreement, by the taxpayer. All but the last ten percent.

As for the risk of unprecedented construction cost overruns, if for example a continuing boom in China or more hurricane disasters in America were to push up materials prices even further, I haven't read the agreement and don't plan to.

However, as a matter of ordinary common sense, the private partner is not going to keep on digging tunnels regardless. At some point, with enough negative developments on the cost front, they will stop work until the terms are changed, and have their lawyers dispose of whatever paper penalties may be coming their way.

But what are the governments going to do? Sit there with a partly finished RAV line that's cost them over a billion dollars and is still not able to carry any passengers with the Olympics due to come to town? Who would be in the weaker bargaining position? Clearly it's the public sector.
The taxpayer is at risk for 90% of ridership because Translink insisted that they have full control of the ticket fares. InTransitBC gets the remaining 10% for risks that may affect ridership, such as train performance, accidents, etc.

It was a mistake to go with P3 to start with.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old June 29th, 2006, 02:49 AM   #1205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
So the most stations will be 40 metres long, with some being 50 metres?

Another questions is, are the stations being built with lengthening in mind. For example, side platform stations can be relatively easily lengthened, unless the track curves or has an incline immediately before or after the station. The downtown stations look like center platforms. It is hard to tell, but do the tunnels taper closer together after leaving the station? The drawings show that the tracks stay parallel throughtout the downtown core which would be somewhat unusual, but that would definitely make expansion easier. If they end up tapering closer together before and after the stations like most systems in the world then that would make expansion almost impossible. False creek station seems to be a bit of an oddball with a taper throughout the station.

Anyways, my guess for the short stations is that this is a fixed price project, the government does not want another Fast Ferries at their hand and this would be one way to cut costs. There is no law stating what a platform length should be, but there are laws and obligations to make the system accessible for example, so they can't save money on NOT installing elevators or escalators. This is just purely my two cents on why they are doing it this way - I'd be very happy to hear other theories or maybe even facts!

whats "fast ferries"?

and can anyone please answer my question from a few pages ago: are there any ferries that connect Victoria with Vancouver that are faster than the car ferries that leave from tsawwassen? any "commuter" ferries that leave victoria harbour and arrive right on the burrard inlet waterfront? or are the car ferries the only way to get to victoria? to me they seemed somewhat slow/lethargic, but a GREAT way to see the strait of Georgia.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 04:30 AM   #1206
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The fast ferry project was a government fiasco with massive cost overuns that helped bring the previous provincial government (NDP, New Democratic Party) to its knees.

here is a link to the project in wikipedia, including pictures of the ferries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Clark

The current government, The Liberals, would not want the same thing to happen to them with the Canada Line project
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Old June 29th, 2006, 04:32 AM   #1207
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sorry, that link was to the premier at the time of the fast ferry fiasco, here is the actual link to the scandal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Ferry_Scandal
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Old June 29th, 2006, 05:09 AM   #1208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat
and can anyone please answer my question from a few pages ago: are there any ferries that connect Victoria with Vancouver that are faster than the car ferries that leave from tsawwassen? any "commuter" ferries that leave victoria harbour and arrive right on the burrard inlet waterfront? or are the car ferries the only way to get to victoria? to me they seemed somewhat slow/lethargic, but a GREAT way to see the strait of Georgia.
No, there have been no such ferries. However, there was an high-speed passenger ferry service from Downtown Vancouver to Nanaimo called Harbour Lynx......though a success, it was unable to pay its bank loans and the service went overboard earlier this year.

The only way of getting to Victoria directly is the BC Ferries Tsawassen-Swartz Bay route (2 hours). Upon arriving at Swartz Bay, there's still a 30 minute drive. The fleet's largest ferries run on this route.


The Washington Group, the company that built the Fast Cat Ferries and also bought them for $19 million later on, has plans to use the ferries (now idling in North Vancouver) for a Vancouver-Victoria from dock facilities near Hastings Park in Vancouver.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old June 29th, 2006, 06:20 AM   #1209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
sorry, that link was to the premier at the time of the fast ferry fiasco, here is the actual link to the scandal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Ferry_Scandal
yah i just read it, it was doomed from the start. the fact that the engines had to operate at 90% power to CRUISE is bad enough. and everyone knows catamarans THAT fast will absolutely unsettle the water behind them. i could go on and on, thats pretty ****** sad.

thank you for the responces, all of you!!!

and sir X, i knew about how you stil have to drive to get to victoria once u unload fromt he ferry; is the town you actually pull into called Sidney? And i liked the ride, rural and green.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 07:07 AM   #1210
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(I mean only 2 of these ^ I hate the way they animate them now) I think there used to be service between downtown Vic and Van too on the Clipper can't remember the service, but it died fairly shortly. There also used to be CP service between both downtowns before the swartz bay Tswassen (sp?) route got started.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 07:10 AM   #1211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat
yah i just read it, it was doomed from the start. the fact that the engines had to operate at 90% power to CRUISE is bad enough. and everyone knows catamarans THAT fast will absolutely unsettle the water behind them. i could go on and on, thats pretty ****** sad.

thank you for the responces, all of you!!!

and sir X, i knew about how you stil have to drive to get to victoria once u unload fromt he ferry; is the town you actually pull into called Sidney? And i liked the ride, rural and green.
No, Sidney is 5 km south of the Swartz Bay terminal.
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"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old June 29th, 2006, 07:29 AM   #1212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
No, Sidney is 5 km south of the Swartz Bay terminal.
ok cool
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Old June 29th, 2006, 09:36 AM   #1213
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back to the station platforms, if they have platforms 40metre eachside, and what if during rush hours, and many people take the trains, how exactly will they fit enough people in there without touching shoulder to shoulder?! because you should expect the world to be riding the transit by 2010...

also another question,
will there be ticket gates before entering the station? or will it be just like the regular skytrain entrances?!
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Old June 29th, 2006, 09:58 AM   #1214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchengg
back to the station platforms, if they have platforms 40metre eachside, and what if during rush hours, and many people take the trains, how exactly will they fit enough people in there without touching shoulder to shoulder?! because you should expect the world to be riding the transit by 2010...

also another question,
will there be ticket gates before entering the station? or will it be just like the regular skytrain entrances?!
i have no idea how they're gonna solve crowding issues at the platforms. it's gonna be a big time problem when the line opens in 2009, especially at Waterfront, Vancouver City Centre, Broadway-City Hall, Bridgeport, Aberdeen, Lansdowne, Richmond Centre and Oakridge. 40 metres is the size of two 98 B-Line buses.

there won't be fare gates at the stations. ticketing is the honour system; same as SkyTrain. 80 additional transit police officers will be hired in 2009 just for the Canada Line.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old June 29th, 2006, 06:54 PM   #1215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
sorry, that link was to the premier at the time of the fast ferry fiasco, here is the actual link to the scandal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Ferry_Scandal
I can see you're quite the expert on BC politics!

I read the article on the fast ferries and it contians some material I must confess I really hadn't been aware of. For example:

" - International fast ferry standards do not permit passengers to remain on the car deck during sailings. This meant that all passengers had to move up to the passenger deck, an unwelcome change for some local residents who were used to sleeping the entire 95 minute voyage in their cars.
- The air on vehicle decks became uncomfortably warm, either from the heat of the vessel engines or lack of air circulation. This made some people wary of bringing pets aboard the FastCats; however, the ferries had kennels with improved air circulation at the bow and stern of the vehicle decks.
- There was little outside deck space for passengers. The existing ferries had large decks, and it was common for passengers to spend the entire sailing circling the decks of the ship or sunbathing on the lifejacket containers.
- The ships had a more modern, European-style interior which was perceived by passengers as being cramped compared to the existing ferries."

These kinds of consumer complaints will plague all manner of projects, for example, any skyscraper built in the moderne or internationalist style. People want to know why you can't at least use some paint on the concrete, or some brick siding around the windows. As for the fast ferries, another complaint was that there were no french fries available because deep fryers were excluded as too heavy for the design!

The article is a bit incomplete. It alludes to the issue of trucking, but doesn't really spell it out that opposition from the trucking industry was the main reason the project got a bad press and became a perceptual and public relations problem. In addition, the BC Ferry and Marine Workers Union joined other critics in attacking the project as part of their negotiation strategy. Given the New Democratic Party's association with orgranized labour generally (the ferry and marine workers are not an actual affiliate or contributor) this was seen by press and pundits as particularly damaging, again viewing everything from a purely political and electoral standpoint.

I was just wondering if you know whether or not the Wikipedia article may have been written by the same person, John Hammersmark, who prepared the private website the article is linked to?
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Old June 29th, 2006, 07:05 PM   #1216
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If it's incomplete, be a good netizen and edit it there (dead easy to do - click "Edit") as well as typing it here. Stick to facts though.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 11:39 PM   #1217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
I can see you're quite the expert on BC politics!

I read the article on the fast ferries and it contians some material I must confess I really hadn't been aware of. For example:

" - International fast ferry standards do not permit passengers to remain on the car deck during sailings. This meant that all passengers had to move up to the passenger deck, an unwelcome change for some local residents who were used to sleeping the entire 95 minute voyage in their cars.
- The air on vehicle decks became uncomfortably warm, either from the heat of the vessel engines or lack of air circulation. This made some people wary of bringing pets aboard the FastCats; however, the ferries had kennels with improved air circulation at the bow and stern of the vehicle decks.
- There was little outside deck space for passengers. The existing ferries had large decks, and it was common for passengers to spend the entire sailing circling the decks of the ship or sunbathing on the lifejacket containers.
- The ships had a more modern, European-style interior which was perceived by passengers as being cramped compared to the existing ferries."

These kinds of consumer complaints will plague all manner of projects, for example, any skyscraper built in the moderne or internationalist style. People want to know why you can't at least use some paint on the concrete, or some brick siding around the windows. As for the fast ferries, another complaint was that there were no french fries available because deep fryers were excluded as too heavy for the design!

The article is a bit incomplete. It alludes to the issue of trucking, but doesn't really spell it out that opposition from the trucking industry was the main reason the project got a bad press and became a perceptual and public relations problem. In addition, the BC Ferry and Marine Workers Union joined other critics in attacking the project as part of their negotiation strategy. Given the New Democratic Party's association with orgranized labour generally (the ferry and marine workers are not an actual affiliate or contributor) this was seen by press and pundits as particularly damaging, again viewing everything from a purely political and electoral standpoint.

I was just wondering if you know whether or not the Wikipedia article may have been written by the same person, John Hammersmark, who prepared the private website the article is linked to?
hehe u say ur from maple rigde, one of my better friends is from maple ridge
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Old June 30th, 2006, 06:04 AM   #1218
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Ok, here are some unusual questions about skytrain:

1. What causes the 3 tone sound that the MKI trains make when they accelerate and decelerate? And being powered by LIMs, motors without moving parts, why are they so noisy? I've been on many metro system around the world and the MKI trains are definitley the noisiest during accelaration and decelaration.

2. During construction of the Millenium Line, a short section of the Expo line guideway was strengthened to accomodate the heavier MKII trains. This section was between Main street and the Home Depot. The horizontal beams had some additional croncrete added to them right where it joins the column. Why was only such a short stretch strengthened? Was that particular stretch actually weaker than the rest of the guideway?

3. MKII trains have air conditioning, yet the windows are openable. Why is that? (I noticed that they have now put stickers on the windows saying to only open them up in emergencies.)

Thanks
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Old June 30th, 2006, 06:51 AM   #1219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
Ok, here are some unusual questions about skytrain:

1. What causes the 3 tone sound that the MKI trains make when they accelerate and decelerate? And being powered by LIMs, motors without moving parts, why are they so noisy? I've been on many metro system around the world and the MKI trains are definitley the noisiest during accelaration and decelaration.

2. During construction of the Millenium Line, a short section of the Expo line guideway was strengthened to accomodate the heavier MKII trains. This section was between Main street and the Home Depot. The horizontal beams had some additional croncrete added to them right where it joins the column. Why was only such a short stretch strengthened? Was that particular stretch actually weaker than the rest of the guideway?

3. MKII trains have air conditioning, yet the windows are openable. Why is that? (I noticed that they have now put stickers on the windows saying to only open them up in emergencies.)

Thanks

im only a 14yearold so i may not answer it right

1. the 3 tone sound maybe just another tape recorded tone

2. they strengthed that part maybe is beacuse there are two turns there that are a little tilted

3. i think you have basically answered it yourself, sometimes its for emergency ventalation? just incase of fire..
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Old June 30th, 2006, 08:35 AM   #1220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
3. MKII trains have air conditioning, yet the windows are openable. Why is that? (I noticed that they have now put stickers on the windows saying to only open them up in emergencies.)
yes its for emergencies.

you may remember the horrible day in November 2000 in Karpun, Austria, when a disaster happened to a funicular railway. heaters not legal for use on vehicles were installed to heat the passenger compartment, then steaming hot condensation trickled down from the head of the train (funiculars are all sloped remember, so gravity can affect a whole bunch of crap) and set the hydraulic fluid, used to open one of the doors, on fire, in the empty drivers cabin at the bottom of the train.

the loss in hydraulic pressure halted ALL doors from opening. so nearly 180 passengers were stuck on the train as the doors couldnt open. at this point their only way of escape was by breaking the BREAK-PROOF plexiglass windows. one brave man towards the bottom of the train took his ski pole and shattered a large window, enabling the ppl at the bottom of the train to get out safely, and they ran towards the bottom end of the tunnel. however, there were only 12 people that made it out this way.

finally the driver was able to get the doors to manually be opened, and the remaining 150+ passengers poured into the tunnel. but as the fire had by now completely blocked off exit towards the bottom, the passengers stuck in the upper part of the train could only travel UP the tunnel. however, the tunnel was acting like a chimney now, sucking up all the oxygen from the bottom of the tunnel and sending the extremely toxic and fatal fumes upwards, where all the passengers were making their way up to the end of the tunnel. out of the 150+ passengers who fled upwards, they all choked to death on the toxic fumes. People at the station at the top of the tunnel died too. the fire was now raging wildly, at temperatures over 1000 degrees, and they completely neutralized the remains of the victims and what was left of the train. in total 155 people perished, just like that.

so if you're curious why air conditioned cars have opening windows, it is for safety reasons.
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