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Old July 7th, 2006, 10:53 PM   #1261
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BTW, came across these ICTS transit studies (for all 3 routes - Broadway-Lougheeed, New West-Coquitlam and Richmond-Vancouver) from 1995:

http://www.rapidtransit.bc.ca/whatsn...0OF%20CONTENTS

It includes this at Section 2.4:

The size and composition of trains and the length of stations typically governs the capacity of ALRT systems but most are capable of carrying in excess of 20,000 passengers per hour through a single point. With the existing cars, the capacity of SkyTrain with 80 metre platforms is 19,200 passengers per hour per direction. Through the introduction of larger cars (Mark II's), capacity could be increased to about 27,000 passengers per hour per direction.

Compare that to the RFP specification for the Canada Line that requires a maximum of just 15,000 passengers per hour per direction.
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Old July 7th, 2006, 11:09 PM   #1262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
BTW, came across these ICTS transit studies (for all 3 routes - Broadway-Lougheeed, New West-Coquitlam and Richmond-Vancouver) from 1995:

http://www.rapidtransit.bc.ca/whatsn...0OF%20CONTENTS

It includes this at Section 2.4:

The size and composition of trains and the length of stations typically governs the capacity of ALRT systems but most are capable of carrying in excess of 20,000 passengers per hour through a single point. With the existing cars, the capacity of SkyTrain with 80 metre platforms is 19,200 passengers per hour per direction. Through the introduction of larger cars (Mark II's), capacity could be increased to about 27,000 passengers per hour per direction.

Compare that to the RFP specification for the Canada Line that requires a maximum of just 15,000 passengers per hour per direction.
Assuming a train every two minutes, this assumes there will be 667 people per train to reach 20,000 per hour, and 900 per train to achieve 27,000. With even a six-car train, you need 150 per carriage to get to 900. Isn't that going to be a bit crammed?
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Old July 7th, 2006, 11:12 PM   #1263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
Other stations that will also see crowding issues:

- Richmond Centre
- Lansdowne
- Aberdeen
- Bridgeport
- YVR-Terminus
- Oakridge-41st
- Broadway-City Hall (big issues!!!!!!!)
- Vancouver City Centre
- Waterfront
If you are able to anticipate crowding at this many points in the system, how is it that those who designed it cannot foresee the same outcomes? Or can they?

There's an old trick in political campaigns. Make the crowd look large by renting a smaller hall. Could that be going on here? Is this part of "Vancouverism", making it look like the system is carrying tens of thousands by crowding a few hundred people into too small a space?
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Old July 8th, 2006, 12:22 AM   #1264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
If you are able to anticipate crowding at this many points in the system, how is it that those who designed it cannot foresee the same outcomes? Or can they?

There's an old trick in political campaigns. Make the crowd look large by renting a smaller hall. Could that be going on here? Is this part of "Vancouverism", making it look like the system is carrying tens of thousands by crowding a few hundred people into too small a space?
Of course they can see the outcomes, but remember the private sector is responsible for design and construction and RAVCO has only required the design maximum capacity to be 15,000 pphpd.
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Old July 8th, 2006, 12:33 AM   #1265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
Assuming a train every two minutes, this assumes there will be 667 people per train to reach 20,000 per hour, and 900 per train to achieve 27,000. With even a six-car train, you need 150 per carriage to get to 900. Isn't that going to be a bit crammed?
That's from the consultant's report - I'm not in a position to second guess them.
I would assume a train every 90 seconds, and 6 car MKI trains and 5 car (A+B-A+C+B) MKII trains to make the full use of the platforms.
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Old July 8th, 2006, 07:24 AM   #1266
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I colored in a drawing for the B-Line. It was hard to make...

Print if you want:
http://www.etspe.ca/cptdb/index.php?...e=post&id=7431
http://www.etspe.ca/cptdb/index.php?...e=post&id=7432
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Old July 8th, 2006, 12:40 PM   #1267
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well if any of you have ever been on the piccadily line before - thats crowded yikes

whenever i catch a train on the m line - which is off peak hours the stations are pretty empty save a few people - 3 to 5 usually

even during peak hours there are hardly any people on the platforms

only problem place is columbia or broadway where people have to transfer

and seeing how there isn't much densification yet along the Canada line i can't imagine it being that bad over all
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Old July 9th, 2006, 10:09 PM   #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
Of course they can see the outcomes, but remember the private sector is responsible for design and construction and RAVCO has only required the design maximum capacity to be 15,000 pphpd.
OKay, fair enough. If I was a contractor submitting a bid on building something I would be inclined to bid for no more product that is called for, ... I think that's quite normal. What I am wondering about is why the criteria were set in this fashion. If the stations you listed earlier are going to be over-crowded from opening day, what motive does Translink or the BC or Federal Govt's have for specifying a design that's going to be a tight fit?
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Old July 9th, 2006, 10:16 PM   #1269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
That's from the consultant's report - I'm not in a position to second guess them.
I would assume a train every 90 seconds, and 6 car MKI trains and 5 car (A+B-A+C+B) MKII trains to make the full use of the platforms.

Well a train every 90 seconds is 40 per hour. So each train must carry 675 to make 27,000. If they are five car trains, that is 135 people per car. If each person needs 4 square feet (that figure sticks in my mind), then the implied space in a Mark II car is 540 square feet. Given an interior width of 8 feet, the cars need to be 67.5 feet long to get to 540 square feet total. Or if they are shorter, not everyone is going to get their ration of 4 square feet.

Last edited by Smelser; July 10th, 2006 at 07:08 PM.
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Old July 9th, 2006, 10:35 PM   #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
OKay, fair enough. If I was a contractor submitting a bid on building something I would be inclined to bid for no more product that is called for, ... I think that's quite normal. What I am wondering about is why the criteria were set in this fashion. If the stations you listed earlier are going to be over-crowded from opening day, what motive does Translink or the BC or Federal Govt's have for specifying a design that's going to be a tight fit?
I doubt the provincial or federal gov't really had anything to do with this. They were just there to say "here's some money and build the frickin line". It was Translink and RAVco's responsibility. The motive was probably not to make this another fast ferries or end anyone's political career if RAVco/Translink went back to Victoria or Ottawa to ask for more money.
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Old July 10th, 2006, 07:03 PM   #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
I doubt the provincial or federal gov't really had anything to do with this. They were just there to say "here's some money and build the frickin line". It was Translink and RAVco's responsibility. The motive was probably not to make this another fast ferries or end anyone's political career if RAVco/Translink went back to Victoria or Ottawa to ask for more money.

In spite of everything, I still think there's a good possibility that RAVco will be back at some point demanding more money, perhaps more than once. I think that anxiety about costs is one of the reasons foreign workers were hired. This could be the political straw that breaks the camel's back bringing down the entire house of cards in terms of transportation and local government in the Greater Vancouver Region.

If the taxpayer is confronted with demands for more money to finish a job that's got to be finished for the Olympics, they're going to want to re-examine everything, including the role of LRT, buses, commuter rail and highways.
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Old July 10th, 2006, 11:30 PM   #1272
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This report shows MKII capacity as 128 normally and 171 maximum.

http://www.rapidtransit.bc.ca/whatsn...hree.htm#three

MK II MKI
Vehicle body length 16.4 m 12.28 m
Overall width 2.65 m 2.5 m
Basic train unit configuration Married pair expandable to triplet Married pair
Maximum operating speed 90 km/h 90 km/h
Carbody material Aluminum Aluminum
Truck propulsion Fabricated steel Aluminum
Propulsion system Linear induction motors Linear induction motors
Wheel diameter 585 mm 470 mm
Number of seats 42 35
Number of passengers (normal) 128 82
Number of passengers (maximum) 171 106
Number of doors per car side 3 2
Width of side doors 1.6 m 1.22 m
Operation Fully automatic Fully automatic
Intercirculation between cars Open gangway End doors
(similar to articulated bus) "not for passengers"
Bicycle or wheelchair position 1 per car 1 per car

******************

WRT funding, it's a fixed prce contract, so InTransitBC will be the one looking for private money to build it within the price they quoted. They've already done that once. Only if they cannot find private investors, then they may approach the government for more cash - with threats to breach the contract - but that would probably risk having the project taken away from them and end up costing them more in lawsuits.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 02:31 AM   #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
This report shows MKII capacity as 128 normally and 171 maximum.

http://www.rapidtransit.bc.ca/whatsn...hree.htm#three
...

******************

WRT funding, it's a fixed prce contract, so InTransitBC will be the one looking for private money to build it within the price they quoted. They've already done that once. Only if they cannot find private investors, then they may approach the government for more cash - with threats to breach the contract - but that would probably risk having the project taken away from them and end up costing them more in lawsuits.
Well, at that rate they are really planning on packing them in. They say themselves, seats for 40 people, but we'll carry over four times that, and then they are saying this is the system's "capacity". These are the kinds of misleading figures we get when transit system carrying capacities are advertised. No one should get the idea that this carrying capacity involves even minimal comfort or dignity.

If you do the arithmetic, at 171 people per car, they are basically allocating about a quarter of a square metre, or just over two square feet, per passenger.

If InTransitBC comes to the governments saying that cost overruns have overturned all estimates, with the Olympic clock ticking, the Govt's are going to have a very hard time finding a new contractor.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 02:43 AM   #1274
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but honestly is the line ever going to be that busy?
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Old July 11th, 2006, 03:00 AM   #1275
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The maximum would be what is called the "crush load" - i.e. like the Toronto subway in rush hour!! - there's no comfort or dignity about having your face in someone's armpit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
If InTransitBC comes to the governments saying that cost overruns have overturned all estimates, with the Olympic clock ticking, the Govt's are going to have a very hard time finding a new contractor.
It's not required for the Olympics though - it is not part of the Bid Book - the only thing would be having egg on your face because of construction sites around the route - but that's not the government's fault (i.e. politically, they could dodge around it). If InTransitBC runs out of money, there would be indications of it long before the 11th hour - so any construction sites could at least be cleaned up.

Depends on what would make the government look dumber - throwing extra money at an unfinished project to complete it for a 2 week event, or dealing with an incomplete system and seeking claims against InTransitBC and completing the project in due course.
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Last edited by officedweller; July 11th, 2006 at 03:11 AM.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 03:46 AM   #1276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongeg
but honestly is the line ever going to be that busy?
Absolutely not! So it makes me wonder why they are pouring in so much money at it at the first place for a single line...oh wait! I know why...Westside creme de la creme!!!!

In the meantime, other parts of the region like the Northeast and the Broadway corridor that are indeed desperate for rapid transit has little hope of getting it anytime soon, if at all...
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Old July 11th, 2006, 04:59 AM   #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongeg
but honestly is the line ever going to be that busy?
bypassing the "waaaaaa!!!!! crybaby!!!!!" post..... considering platform lengths of just 40-50 metres long and trains with a 337 passenger capacity, you can bet it will be congested within a very short time after completion.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 05:11 AM   #1278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
bypassing the "waaaaaa!!!!! crybaby!!!!!" post..... considering platform lengths of just 40-50 metres long and trains with a 337 passenger capacity, you can bet it will be congested within a very short time after completion.
Proof? Or are you just making it up as usual, little boy?
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Old July 11th, 2006, 05:48 AM   #1279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
bypassing the "waaaaaa!!!!! crybaby!!!!!" post..... considering platform lengths of just 40-50 metres long and trains with a 337 passenger capacity, you can bet it will be congested within a very short time after completion.
Yea. I don't believe it will be another Millenium line (in the usage sense) - I think it will take off quickly in popularity. I see perhaps only a few stations that will get little use in the early years. That's just my gut feeling.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 06:09 AM   #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Proof? Or are you just making it up as usual, little boy?
Or rather, it proofs how little you know about the project.

Little boy????? what the hell are you, a pedifile?



and honestly, do you have anything better to say than just repetition? How many times have you dropped by once every few weeks or months just to say: "Absolutely not! So it makes me wonder why they are pouring in so much money at it at the first place for a single line...oh wait! I know why...Westside creme de la creme!!!!

In the meantime, other parts of the region like the Northeast and the Broadway corridor that are indeed desperate for rapid transit has little hope of getting it anytime soon, if at all..."


and yet, you now live in Portland.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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