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Old July 11th, 2006, 06:22 AM   #1281
mr.x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73
Yea. I don't believe it will be another Millenium line (in the usage sense) - I think it will take off quickly in popularity. I see perhaps only a few stations that will get little use in the early years. That's just my gut feeling.
Same thoughts too. Here's what I think will be the busiest stations, in order from busiest to least:

1) Bridgeport
2) Richmond City Centre
3) Broadway-City Hall
4) Waterfront
5) Vancouver City Centre
6) Marine Drive
7) YVR-Terminal
8) Oakridge-41st
9) Aberdeen
10) Yaletown
11) Lansdowne
12) King Edward
13) Olympic Village
14) 49th Avenue-Langara
15) Sea Island Centre
16) Templeton
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Old July 11th, 2006, 09:59 PM   #1282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Absolutely not! So it makes me wonder why they are pouring in so much money at it at the first place for a single line...oh wait! I know why...Westside creme de la creme!!!!
Your obsession with cream is really getting annoying and is counter-productive to this thread. Who's acting like the kid here?
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Old July 12th, 2006, 06:23 AM   #1283
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CANADA LINE TRAIN UPDATE

The first wave of new urban trains for Rio de Janeiro have just arrived.....and guess what, they're made by ROTEM and they are the XG-EMU; also our Canada Line trains. These Brazilian trains have a lot more in common with the Canada Line rendering than the ones I've shown you (including the doors which open inside, not outside).




interior


lateral safety


interior



eletronic sign panel (CANADA LINE TRAINS WILL HAVE THESE "NEXT STATION" SIGNS"


Seat for 2 passengers


Seat for 3 passengers + waste basket


Seat for 4 passengers (back to back)


Seats 2 e 4 passengers


Light and hand-pole


Hand-pole detail


Conection


lateral safety + waste basket


Outside





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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 12th, 2006, 07:35 AM   #1284
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Canada line train will be driverless though, right?

And I thought the cars would have "plug in" type doors, is that not the case anymore?
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Old July 12th, 2006, 07:35 AM   #1285
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Wicked!
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Old July 12th, 2006, 07:45 AM   #1286
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Lots of space, but there's not much to hold onto in those trains.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 07:49 AM   #1287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
Canada line train will be driverless though, right?

And I thought the cars would have "plug in" type doors, is that not the case anymore?
Yes, these trains are still completely driverless.

What are "plug in" type doors?
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 12th, 2006, 07:52 AM   #1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonie
Lots of space, but there's not much to hold onto in those trains.
there are tons of poles everywhere.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 12th, 2006, 08:22 AM   #1289
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Not really, considering how much space there is, especially in the door areas.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 08:41 AM   #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonie
Not really, considering how much space there is, especially in the door areas.
there are poles everywhere (on the sides and down the corridor) and there are bars near the ceiling that go down the corridor. it's enough.....we don't want to overkill it or make it hard to get in/out.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 12th, 2006, 03:51 PM   #1291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
Yes, these trains are still completely driverless.

What are "plug in" type doors?
Plug doors are doors that push out and open outside the vehicle. You know, the type that swings out of a bus or a train. Its common on train like the MTR in Hong Kong. In humid countries, it helps to keep the air-conditioning in the vehicle.

Any idea what the colour scheme of the Canada Line (CL) trains will be like? Red?
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Old July 12th, 2006, 06:27 PM   #1292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
The maximum would be what is called the "crush load" - i.e. like the Toronto subway in rush hour!! - there's no comfort or dignity about having your face in someone's armpit.
Exactly, that's what I am saying. There are seats for 40. At 80 people per car as many are standing as sitting, and beyond 80? To get to this "capacity" figure of 27,000 per hour you need, with five car trains arriving every 1.5 minutes (a total of 40 trains or 200 cars per hour) an average of 135 people per car. While that is less than what you have described as the "crush load", it's still going to be a very sweaty, uncomfortable ride, especially if it's anything over 10 to 15 minutes. Imagine someone trying to fit a cranky kid in a stroller onto a train like that.

This is why I say that these LRT capacity figures are quite misleading. They assume conditions that are simply not bearable as a regular routine. If the transit authority thinks this kind of travel will "attract" motorists away from vehicles and towards transit, they are wrong, and the GVRD and Vancouver City "planner" types undoubtedly know that. That's why they put so much emphasis on taxing and congesting people out of their cars, i.e. vehement opposition to twinning Port Mann and widening the Trans Canada. All this so they can pack them like sardines on a thoroughly second rate system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
It's not required for the Olympics though - it is not part of the Bid Book - the only thing would be having egg on your face because of construction sites around the route - but that's not the government's fault (i.e. politically, they could dodge around it). If InTransitBC runs out of money, there would be indications of it long before the 11th hour - so any construction sites could at least be cleaned up.

Depends on what would make the government look dumber - throwing extra money at an unfinished project to complete it for a 2 week event, or dealing with an incomplete system and seeking claims against InTransitBC and completing the project in due course.

I must say I am quite surprised to hear this isn't part of the Bid Book. Every discussion I have ever seen of Olympic economic impacts always packages together the Games themselves, the Vancouver Convention and Exhibition Centre, the upgrades to Hwy 99, and the RAV line.

If you have a half completed RAV line, OKay, Canada Line in approved parlance, who's going to offer to finish it less expensively. InTransitBC, or some successor contractor?

My real point is that with a half completed line and a need for more money, and with the Olympics bearing down on the City, the province, the nation, ... there's going to be enormous pressure on everyone and the usual GVRD nostrums and sacred cows are going to have a helluva hard time surviving. People are going to start taking a serious look at the cost benefit of these LRT lines versus road improvements with express bus lanes.

Let's take another look at that imaginary figure of 27,000 people per hour. Consider one freeway lane turned into an HOV lane. It can carry 2000 vehicles, more or less of any type, per hour. If there are 1,400 two passenger cars and 600 buses carrying 45 people each, ... and each of those 45 is seated comfortably, able to read a book or listen to their headphones, not one is standing with their face in someone's armpit, ... the total carried per hour comes to 2,800 in cars, and 27,000 in buses. So where is the advantage of LRT? It's time the public in Vancouver was treated to an honest discussion of these choices.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 06:29 PM   #1293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc
Canada line train will be driverless though, right?

And I thought the cars would have "plug in" type doors, is that not the case anymore?
From the rendering of the train, it looks like the doors hollow in. I don't think they are plug in doors.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 06:38 PM   #1294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overground
Your obsession with cream is really getting annoying and is counter-productive to this thread. Who's acting like the kid here?

I think Wally comes by his anger honestly. Perhaps you don't recall or never heard of a presentation a "citizen" made to Vancouver City Council about four years ago. I cannot recall what the actual issue was, but she basically said she came from the Arbutus neighborhood, next to Shaughnessy, and that the Council dare not ignor her and her neighbours, because "we are your orthodontists and tax lawyers, your chartered accountants and executives, we are the creme de la creme."

That's not quite the true exact quote, it's from memory having read newspaper coverage at the time, but it's pretty close. After all, you don't forget arrogance like that!

And it is undoubtedly true that one reason for selecting Cambie over Arbutus alignements for a transit route to Richmond has to do with avoiding well-to-do neighborhoods. I don't think that's the only or most important one, but it is a factor.

Perhaps someday the Arbutus line will be the location for a West Coast Express type service to Richmond, Delta, South Surrey and White Rock (Blaine, ... Bellingham?).
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Old July 12th, 2006, 10:22 PM   #1295
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I certainly agree with alot of the arguments on both sides of the issues. But the constant use of the phrase is quite annoying after time and especially sometimes when it's indirectly pointed at a certain forumer. It creates a sense of hostility in this thread and others.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 11:12 PM   #1296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overground
I certainly agree with alot of the arguments on both sides of the issues. But the constant use of the phrase is quite annoying after time and especially sometimes when it's indirectly pointed at a certain forumer. It creates a sense of hostility in this thread and others.
Precisely, and yet he continues to claim that I'm "creme de la creme" simply because I live on the westside and claims I was responsible for expensive tunneling on Cambie and avoiding the Arbutus route.......yet I live 10 km west of Arbutus and even farther away from Cambie, obviously. And yet I've always made public that the Arbutus creme de la creme have to some extent prevented RAV on that corridor (but then, that corridor wouldn't have worked anyhow), that sections of the line on Cambie should be elevated, etc. It's worse than talking to wall....the wall bites back.

It's always the same old same old "westside creme de la creme" or "little boy" (wth is that) or "a train high in the Sky"......it's irritating! Say something productive for once!

Not to mention he's making assumptions (not everybody that lives in the westside is rich) on all sorts of things and yet he lives in Portland (used to live in Van. years ago).
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 14th, 2006, 03:26 AM   #1297
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The Trains won't be using that colour scheme will they? No offense to the Brasilians, but that train looks awful (as far as it's colour is concerned). It must also be hard to keep it looking clean as well....
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Old July 14th, 2006, 05:53 AM   #1298
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The Canada Line trains will be silver - probably paint then (as in Brazil) rather than polished stainless steel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
So where is the advantage of LRT?
It's always going to be difficult for any form of transit to compete with the car - whether it's personal space, convenience of point to point travel or cargo capacity.
It'll only be when (if) driving a car becomes relatively intolerable (whether due to congestion on roads/bridges, high gas costs, high parking costs or taxes (tolls, etc)) - personally, high parking costs seen like a very powerful deterrant.
One of the advantages of Skytrain or Canada Line is its own ROW - especially at bottlenecks at the various bridges in the region. Even HOV lanes can get backed up.
In GVRD, we don't have the sort of congestion you see in many other larger cities, so buses could be an alternative - it depends on whether you want to have transit appeal to a broader segment of the population (and it would be tough to counter the "loser cruiser" moniker with just buses). i.e. do we need transit at all or anything above even just a minimal level of service? i.e. apart from pollution, why are cars so bad?
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Old July 17th, 2006, 11:36 PM   #1299
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"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 24th, 2006, 08:55 PM   #1300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller
It's always going to be difficult for any form of transit to compete with the car - whether it's personal space, convenience of point to point travel or cargo capacity.
It'll only be when (if) driving a car becomes relatively intolerable (whether due to congestion on roads/bridges, high gas costs, high parking costs or taxes (tolls, etc)) - personally, high parking costs seen like a very powerful deterrant.
...

i.e. apart from pollution, why are cars so bad?

I think the proper way to resolve this puzzle is through the use of benefit-cost analysis, where non-market costs like pollution and the opportunity costs of land are accounted for along with monetized prices for labour, capital, fuels, equipment, etc.

But none of the vocal interest groups and neither local nor provincial governments will ever agree to that, because they are all afraid of the answers. One particular danger is that advocates and causists will insist that the non-market costs of air pollution be given truly extraordinary shadow prices far out of line with anything rational or serious, turning the entire calculation into a complete farce. There are, after all, three sorts of lies, just as Disreali said. And he was talking before there were computers around to help out!

In European countries LRT is used in conjunction with longer distance higher speed trains operating from different platforms of the same stations, but with the higher speed trains stopping only at selected stations. In the GVRD the game has been the usual, BC go-cheap-and-pretend-it's-working-strategy, by pressing LRT into service over medium to longer haul routes of twenty or more kilometres and adamantly refusing to put in higher speed trains for the longer distances.

The GVRD types, the various urban environmentalists, and the transit advocacy types don't want higher speed trains for fear, they say, that this will induce urban sprawl in the Fraser Valley. What they mean is it might lead to a more competitive (read "lower priced") real estate market for residential properties. That could leave a lot of Vancouver City's and Burnaby's recent yuppie house and condo buyers sitting on top of a zero or negative equity situation. The reaction from the yuppies, rendered mortgage hostages in their own dwellings, plus the outraged parents who coughed up the downpayments, could be pretty damn serious!

Vancouver and Burnaby officials and politicians are also sick to death with fear and loathing that Surrey and Langley are going to start eating seriously into Vancouver's major share of the GVRD's industrial and commercial tax base, hence their criticisms of industrial and office parks which have given the suburbs a bigger share of recent job growth. They try to dress this up as a critique of irresponsible suburban politicians (there are no irresponsible politicians in the City of Vancouver, of course) who have failed to follow the sacred texts of the Livable Region plan, but what they mean is "we're losing revenue".
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