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Old August 23rd, 2007, 06:52 AM   #1741
ssiguy2
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OK people.

I'm interested to find out more about the vehicles they are using. I know they are from Rotem but went to their website and didn't say much.
I'm sure this thread has mentioned this but I don't want to read one year of messages.

Does anyone have a FULL view of the trains? In terms of lenght what are they in comparion to a MK1/11? How many cars per train? How many cars will be able to put in the stations without having to lenghthen the stations later?
Are they wider than MK1/11?

Enquiring minds want to know.
Thanks.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 07:16 AM   #1742
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Check out the first page description of the vehicle. That's a start.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 07:17 AM   #1743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
OK people.

I'm interested to find out more about the vehicles they are using. I know they are from Rotem but went to their website and didn't say much.
I'm sure this thread has mentioned this but I don't want to read one year of messages.

Does anyone have a FULL view of the trains? In terms of lenght what are they in comparion to a MK1/11? How many cars per train? How many cars will be able to put in the stations without having to lenghthen the stations later?
Are they wider than MK1/11?

Enquiring minds want to know.
Thanks.
1) There aren't any diagrams or pictures of the same train the Canada Line is using other than what we've already seen.


2) Mark I cars are 12-metres long and 2 metres wide (a 4-car Mark I train is about 48 metres long). Mark II cars are 18-metres long and 2.2 metres wide (an articulated 2-car Mark II train is 36-metres long). The Canada Line articulated Rotem trains are 41-metres long (20.5 metre long cars) and 3 metres wide, so they are quite wider than the Mark series.

The Canada Line will be using 2-car articulated trains with a potential tiny 10-metre car in the middle of the articulated train when all station platforms have been expanded to 50-metres.


3) Most station platforms are 40-metres in length......except Waterfront, City Centre, Broadway-City Hall, Oakridge, YVR-Airport, and Richmond-Brighouse which are 50-metres long. Stations that are 40 metres long are expandable to 50-metres. Only 2-car trains can be used in 2009 and a third-car that is 10-metres long could be used in the future when platforms are extended.

At 40-metres, the station platforms won't be even able to dock entirely with the 41-metre trains.



We will be heading into major capacity, accessibility, and passenger comfort issues with this line in the near future. Future capacity is very very limited with the Canada Line.



Oakridge-41st Station




Check out the first page for all the info you will ever need.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 07:17 AM   #1744
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you guys are making stupendous progress, awesome work!
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 07:24 AM   #1745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
1) There aren't any diagrams or pictures of the same train the Canada Line is using other than what we've already seen.


2) Mark I cars are 12-metres long and 2 metres wide (a 4-car Mark I train is about 48 metres long). Mark II cars are 18-metres long and 2.2 metres wide (an articulated 2-car Mark II train is 36-metres long). The Canada Line articulated Rotem trains are 41-metres long (20.5 metre long cars) and 3 metres wide, so they are quite wider than the Mark series.

The Canada Line will be using 2-car articulated trains with a potential tiny 10-metre car in the middle of the articulated train when all station platforms have been expanded to 50-metres.


3) Most station platforms are 40-metres in length......except Waterfront, City Centre, Broadway-City Hall, Oakridge, YVR-Airport, and Richmond-Brighouse which are 50-metres long. Stations that are 40 metres long are expandable to 50-metres. Only 2-car trains can be used in 2009 and a third-car that is 10-metres long could be used in the future when platforms are extended.

At 40-metres, the station platforms won't be even able to dock entirely with the 41-metre trains.



We will be heading into major capacity, accessibility, and passenger comfort issues with this line in the near future.



Oakridge-41st Station




Check out the first page for all the info you will ever need.
yah wow, that is honestly some pretty poor planning, no offence to my 2nd favourite city in North America or its inhabitants.

so every five minutes a new train pulls into the station. is 5 minutes the peak interval or the avg interval? 41m train is dinky but if it comes every 5 minutes and is really serving more of a commuter role than a regional-connector role then that train length and period of time is fine. the overly short stations (shorter than the train, and after expansion shorter than the long train) are what frighten me the most, however.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 08:06 AM   #1746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat View Post
yah wow, that is honestly some pretty poor planning, no offence to my 2nd favourite city in North America or its inhabitants.

so every five minutes a new train pulls into the station. is 5 minutes the peak interval or the avg interval? 41m train is dinky but if it comes every 5 minutes and is really serving more of a commuter role than a regional-connector role then that train length and period of time is fine. the overly short stations (shorter than the train, and after expansion shorter than the long train) are what frighten me the most, however.
Well, I think we are getting the Lada version of metro systems. Ultra basic, built just to barely meet the absolute minimum requirements. A victim of Public Private Partnership (3P). Sure it will be on budget, but the private partner will make money, and the public will just have to get used to a crowded, bare bones system.

If this would have been a public project it probably would have gone over budget because of rising construction costs but EVERYONE has to deal with that right now. But it least it would have been built right. Just look at the Millennium line. On time and on budget.

The private partner of the Canada Line project (InTransitBC) is not stupid and knows about the rising construction costs and has cut corners at all levels it could.

I love subways and I was so excited when this project was announced but it has been nothing but disappointments since then. The only thing that I can think of that they haven't cheaped out on was the flyover after Bridgeport station. The rest, the short, sloped stations, only two down escalators on the whole line, monochrome LED displays out of the eighties (proposed to be just like the current ones), narrow, low ceiling platforms, single entrances at stations where there should be two, single track end stations, no emergency exits to the outside in between stations (in tunnels), etc....

Sorry for the rant, I'm setting my expectations low so that maybe I will get to like this system... because I really do want to like it.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 08:33 AM   #1747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat View Post
yah wow, that is honestly some pretty poor planning, no offence to my 2nd favourite city in North America or its inhabitants.

so every five minutes a new train pulls into the station. is 5 minutes the peak interval or the avg interval? 41m train is dinky but if it comes every 5 minutes and is really serving more of a commuter role than a regional-connector role then that train length and period of time is fine. the overly short stations (shorter than the train, and after expansion shorter than the long train) are what frighten me the most, however.
Don't worry, it isn't offending because it really is poor planning.

Every 5-minutes is the average interval. During most of the day (morning and afternoon peak, mid-day) there will be a train every 3-4 minutes in Vancouver and at every 6-7 minutes at the Richmond and YVR spur lines.

This line is using the same automated technology as our existing SkyTrain, which an go to frequencies less than 60 seconds. I doubt the Canada Line could reach 60 second frequencies in Vancouver since the final stretches of the YVR and Richmond spurs are single-tracked. I'd think the maximum frequency for the Canada Line would be 2 minutes in Vancouver and 4 minutes in YVR/Richmond.

We won't be fine.....a lot of bus ridership is being diverted to the Canada Line and we're expecting 100,000 passengers per day on opening year or maybe a year or two after opening year and more than 140,000 passengers daily by 2021. In comparison, the SkyTrain Expo Line use 80-metre platforms and short trains that carry the same amount of passengers as the Canada Line trains. The Canada Line uses 40-metre platforms (and trains) and has 16-stations (in the future, it will have 4 more stations built on the line).....Expo SkyTrain has 20-stations and carries 180,000 passengers daily. Comparing SkyTrain and the Canada Line, you can see major problems in the future.

This is a very busy and rapidly growing corridor, ridership will be growing fast.


A lot of people (or rather EVERYONE) are expecting the Canada Line to be as grand and luxurious as the Millennium SkyTrain Line, but I think they will be VERY surprised in 2009.....I can really see the media making a big fuss about it too.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 08:43 AM   #1748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
Well, I think we are getting the Lada version of metro systems. Ultra basic, built just to barely meet the absolute minimum requirements. A victim of Public Private Partnership (3P). Sure it will be on budget, but the private partner will make money, and the public will just have to get used to a crowded, bare bones system.

If this would have been a public project it probably would have gone over budget because of rising construction costs but EVERYONE has to deal with that right now. But it least it would have been built right. Just look at the Millennium line. On time and on budget.

The private partner of the Canada Line project (InTransitBC) is not stupid and knows about the rising construction costs and has cut corners at all levels it could.

I love subways and I was so excited when this project was announced but it has been nothing but disappointments since then. The only thing that I can think of that they haven't cheaped out on was the flyover after Bridgeport station. The rest, the short, sloped stations, only two down escalators on the whole line, monochrome LED displays out of the eighties (proposed to be just like the current ones), narrow, low ceiling platforms, single entrances at stations where there should be two, single track end stations, no emergency exits to the outside in between stations (in tunnels), etc....

Sorry for the rant, I'm setting my expectations low so that maybe I will get to like this system... because I really do want to like it.
I have the same thoughts and feelings too.


There was HUGE public support behind this project. Translink's initial voting down of the project was met with a lot of public protest against its decision and a website called "RAV Rant" was created by supporters, and received thousands of hits daily [and thousands of comments daily]. They also polled the general public, something like 84% for the project from 8,000 votes.

I really feel the public will be dissapointed when more is revealed about this project. It will send the Liberal government back to the drawing board with all this P3 hype they want. But really, I don't think it was the P3 or InTransitBC's fault, it was Jane Bird and RAVco. They were the ones that low-balled the capacity of the line (15,000 ppdph) and did not specify platform lengths.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 08:38 PM   #1749
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Dear god!

That is puny.
People say the " bigger SkyTrain cars and stations" as a comparison but by any standards SkyTrain stations/cars are VERY small.
Compare to any subway system and SkyTrain is a Tonka-toy.

All SkyTrain stations are soon going have to be lenghtened to accomodate 3 MK11 cars at the very least. Even that would still make them a small subway compared to other major one's like Toronto's.

Only Vancouver could be so incredibly short sighted.

RAV with only the capacity of 3 MK1 is beyond stupid.
I kniow the Twass/WhiteRock buses are all being transferred to the RAV. All it takes is for both to arrive at the same time and the tiny train is full.

They would have been better just to use LRT down Arbustus or BRT down Arbutsus...........it seems it would have been just as fast and seems it would have the same capacity.
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 10:24 PM   #1750
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Operations & Maintenance Centre - August 12 - by Tafyrn

























Quote:
I kniow the Twass/WhiteRock buses are all being transferred to the RAV. All it takes is for both to arrive at the same time and the tiny train is full.

They would have been better just to use LRT down Arbustus or BRT down Arbutsus...........it seems it would have been just as fast and seems it would have the same capacity.
Yea, this could potentially be the next fast ferries.

I don't know about LRT or BRT down Arbutus, but right now I would definitely prefer LRT on Cambie over what is being built. I think most supported the Canada Line because of its speed, frequency, and capacity over LRT.....but right now it's missing frequency and capacity.

Ideally, the Canada Line should've been built with at least 80-metre platforms expandable to 100-metres and the airport and Richmond terminus sections should never have been single-tracked.
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Last edited by mr.x; August 23rd, 2007 at 10:56 PM.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 01:38 AM   #1751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
Well, I think we are getting the Lada version of metro systems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
Ultra basic, built just to barely meet the absolute minimum requirements. A victim of Public Private Partnership (3P). Sure it will be on budget, but the private partner will make money, and the public will just have to get used to a crowded, bare bones system.

If this would have been a public project it probably would have gone over budget because of rising construction costs but EVERYONE has to deal with that right now. But it least it would have been built right. Just look at the Millennium line. On time and on budget.
yah how is the Millennium line regarding crowding? those trains are short too... and i take it that it was a public project, how come it was able to be on budget?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
The private partner of the Canada Line project (InTransitBC) is not stupid and knows about the rising construction costs and has cut corners at all levels it could.

I love subways and I was so excited when this project was announced but it has been nothing but disappointments since then. The only thing that I can think of that they haven't cheaped out on was the flyover after Bridgeport station. The rest, the short, sloped stations, only two down escalators on the whole line, monochrome LED displays out of the eighties (proposed to be just like the current ones), narrow, low ceiling platforms, single entrances at stations where there should be two, single track end stations, no emergency exits to the outside in between stations (in tunnels), etc....

Sorry for the rant, I'm setting my expectations low so that maybe I will get to like this system... because I really do want to like it.
its ok, a system like the one you just cited really does deserve a rant
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Old August 24th, 2007, 01:50 AM   #1752
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This line is using the same automated technology as our existing SkyTrain, which an go to frequencies less than 60 seconds. I doubt the Canada Line could reach 60 second frequencies in Vancouver since the final stretches of the YVR and Richmond spurs are single-tracked. I'd think the maximum frequency for the Canada Line would be 2 minutes in Vancouver and 4 minutes in YVR/Richmond.
single tracked? ive honestly never heard of something like that on a system of this nature ever before in my life... even tram systems typically avoid single tracking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
We won't be fine.....a lot of bus ridership is being diverted to the Canada Line and we're expecting 100,000 passengers per day on opening year or maybe a year or two after opening year and more than 140,000 passengers daily by 2021. In comparison, the SkyTrain Expo Line use 80-metre platforms and short trains that carry the same amount of passengers as the Canada Line trains. The Canada Line uses 40-metre platforms (and trains) and has 16-stations (in the future, it will have 4 more stations built on the line).....Expo SkyTrain has 20-stations and carries 180,000 passengers daily. Comparing SkyTrain and the Canada Line, you can see major problems in the future.


This is a very busy and rapidly growing corridor, ridership will be growing fast.


A lot of people (or rather EVERYONE) are expecting the Canada Line to be as grand and luxurious as the Millennium SkyTrain Line, but I think they will be VERY surprised in 2009.....I can really see the media making a big fuss about it too.

well i guess all we can say (and i mean this as honestly as you can imagine) is that let's hope it turns out as not-badly as possible
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Old August 24th, 2007, 02:16 AM   #1753
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I guess the Canada Line is the North American version of the Dockland's Light Rail in England. But at the end, the planners there did lengthen the platforms and increased capacity dramatically, from I think 30 or 40m to 60m. I wonder how much did that cost and was the system originally designed to be extended to 60m.

My dad told me that there won't be that many people taking the C-Line compared to the Skytrain, thinking that it'll be losing so much money that taxpayers will be covering the cost up. It's hard to say if C-Line will be immediately at capacity within a few years of opening, but for sure, it'll be at capacity within 20 years.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 03:07 AM   #1754
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There seem to be a mix of opinions regarding how successful it will be. Time will tell.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 03:07 AM   #1755
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I try to stay positive by reflecting on my beliefs that:

1. An overcrowded system is better than an underutilized system if one is eagerly anticipating future transit expansion in the region (we'll see that Arbutus line a lot sooner if the Canada Line can't meet North-South commuter needs).

and

2. A system with low-capacity vehicles with higher frequency potential is preferable to a system with high-capacity vehicles with lower frequency (Canada Line vs. traditional heavy-rail subway systems).
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Old August 24th, 2007, 03:34 AM   #1756
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I guess the Canada Line is the North American version of the Dockland's Light Rail in England. But at the end, the planners there did lengthen the platforms and increased capacity dramatically, from I think 30 or 40m to 60m. I wonder how much did that cost and was the system originally designed to be extended to 60m.

My dad told me that there won't be that many people taking the C-Line compared to the Skytrain, thinking that it'll be losing so much money that taxpayers will be covering the cost up. It's hard to say if C-Line will be immediately at capacity within a few years of opening, but for sure, it'll be at capacity within 20 years.
Well, the major difference between DLR and the Canada Line is that the DLR is mostly elevated. The Canada Line is roughly half underground and half elevated/at-grade, and we all know how much harder [and more expensive] it is to extend underground platforms.

Interesting to note that the DLR has recently built a new platform for one of its terminus stations. Before, it was just a single-tracked platform but now it is doubled (similar to the Canada Line's Waterfront Station with track switches just before arriving the station). Is that a possibility with Brighouse-RCC and YVR-Airport Stations?

Can the 250-metre single-tracked segments at the terminus of the two spur lines be double-tracked? I very much doubt it, though you could build another guideway right next to it......and the City of Richmond would flip over having two sets of pillars on No.3 Road. We all know how much they wanted at-grade because of "the ugly elevated guideway'.

With the Canada Line, i think the biggest platform extension problem could be Bridgeport Station. You have the expensive flyover/track switch immediately west of the station and then you have the track switches from the OMC immediately east of the station.....the Bridgeport area would have to be completely rebuilt for an extended station beyond 50-metres.

With extending the underground station platforms, we don't know what the tunnel grades are like on both ends of the stations or where precisely the turns in the tunnel are. Also, expensive high-powered tunnel fans located at the ends of each station would have to be relocated elsewhere.




I doubt the Canada Line will have the same ridership issues as the Millennium Line, which seems to be the main worry with the public and the media.....though it's never mentioned that the Millennium Line is only half-built with its PMC SkyTrain extension cancelled and Broadway extension deferred, yet Translink and the media are still using the same ridership projections based on a complete line.

The Canada Line, unlike the M-Line, goes through Downtown Vancouver, major employment/shopping centres, interchange areas, the airport, and Downtown Richmond. The M-Line doesn't go through that kind of density nor does it serve any major institutions/employment centres (besides SFU). That said, the M-Line is near ridership projections this year.



It's certainly a lot easier to extend the station platforms on the Expo and M-Lines just by looking at them. The Expo Line platforms for sure can be extended to accommodate 8-car Mark I's from the present 6-car Mark I's.....and frequency isn't a problem either with all sections double-tracked and with an automatic train control system able to run frequencies as frequent as 60 seconds or less.

Thankfully, Translink voted to provide more funding to InTransitBC so that only one station in Richmond would be single-tracked (Brighouse-RCC) rather than both Lansdowne and Brighouse-RCC stations. It would've been an absolute backlog mess if the single-tracking started before Lansdowne.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 03:46 AM   #1757
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Quote:
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I try to stay positive by reflecting on my beliefs that:

1. An overcrowded system is better than an underutilized system if one is eagerly anticipating future transit expansion in the region (we'll see that Arbutus line a lot sooner if the Canada Line can't meet North-South commuter needs).

and

2. A system with low-capacity vehicles with higher frequency potential is preferable to a system with high-capacity vehicles with lower frequency (Canada Line vs. traditional heavy-rail subway systems).
1. A 40-metre station platform is shorter than the Disneyland monorail platforms. Most metros in the world are built to be able to accommodate future capacity.

The Arbutus corridor is more of an streetcar corridor rather than LRT....for one thing there's not enough density to support LRT and if SkyTrain had been built on Arbutus instead, I read somewhere it would take 35-minutes from Downtown to Richmond....and that's SkyTrain, not LRT - and LRT takes longer than SkyTrain.


2. The thing about the Canada Line is that the single-tracked terminus sections at YVR and Richmond will limit the ultimate frequency of the line. You probably won't see SkyTrain's ultimate frequency of 60 seconds or less but maybe an ultimate frequency of 2 to 3-minutes in Vancouver and 4-6 minutes in Richmond/YVR.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 03:49 AM   #1758
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Can the 250-metre single-tracked segments at the terminus of the two spur lines be double-tracked? I very much doubt it, though you could build another guideway right next to it......and the City of Richmond would flip over having two sets of pillars on No.3 Road. We all know how much they wanted at-grade because of "the ugly elevated guideway'.

With the Canada Line, i think the biggest platform extension problem could be Bridgeport Station. You have the expensive flyover/track switch immediately west of the station and then you have the track switches from the OMC immediately east of the station.....the Bridgeport area would have to be completely rebuilt for an extended station beyond 50-metres.

If making an extra platform not possible for both YVR-Airport and Brighouse Stations, then extend the double tracking west and south, respectively, as closest to the stations as possible, so that increasing the frequency of the trains is more feasible. If the single-tracking portiions are 250m (don't think so, more likely 400m now, check google earth), then narrow it to 100m.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 03:59 AM   #1759
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If making an extra platform not possible for both YVR-Airport and Brighouse Stations, then extend the double tracking west and south, respectively, as closest to the stations as possible, so that increasing the frequency of the trains is more feasible. If the single-tracking portiions are 250m (don't think so, more likely 400m now, check google earth), then narrow it to 100m.
My bad. Looking at Google Earth, i'm approximating single-tracking to be:

- Richmond: 500-600 metres
- YVR: 400-500 metres
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Old August 24th, 2007, 04:55 AM   #1760
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2. The thing about the Canada Line is that the single-tracked terminus sections at YVR and Richmond will limit the ultimate frequency of the line. You probably won't see SkyTrain's ultimate frequency of 60 seconds or less but maybe an ultimate frequency of 2 to 3-minutes in Vancouver and 4-6 minutes in Richmond/YVR.
It's amazing how one short single track section can affect the train frequency of the whole system. If they would have made the Richmond terminus doubled tracked and leave the airport they way it is, then increasing the frequency on the Richmond spur would have benefited the whole line.

However, they could eventually run every fourth train just to Bridgeport and have it turn back to Vancouver. This would increase frequency on the main trunk portion of the line and would help with the movement of commuters from the suburbs. Not sure how complicated logistically that would be, but with an automated system, this should be feasable.
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