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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:11 AM   #1801
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I don't really mind the stations being short as long as the service is frequent.

but I thought that the trains were 41 m?

and some of the stations are 40 m...

A train that doesn't fit at the station, imagine that...
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:22 AM   #1802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada_Line View Post
I don't really mind the stations being short as long as the service is frequent.

but I thought that the trains were 41 m?

and some of the stations are 40 m...

A train that doesn't fit at the station, imagine that...
The trains are 41-metres long and 3 metres wide. Most of the stations are 40 metres with a select few being 50-metres.

At least the single-tracked spans are designed so that they can be double-tracked in the future.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:27 AM   #1803
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really? they can be double tracked in the future?
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:27 AM   #1804
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yes, a train that doesn't fit into the station
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:29 AM   #1805
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hey, check out this Seltrac signalling brochure

http://www.tsd.org/cbtc/Suppliers/Al...acBrochure.pdf
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:32 AM   #1806
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If the double tracking is extended to 20 m before the station, so as not to need to change the station plans (reducing cost), the maximum frequency would be about 1 minute (maybe less), which would be good enough.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:34 AM   #1807
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and that would be about 9 million only...we probably wouldn't have to do that for the airport, because it shouldn't experience as much ridership
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:35 AM   #1808
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What an amazing thread! I just stumbled upon it.. well done!!!
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:47 AM   #1809
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but 40m platforms will mean that the cars will never be able to be extended.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 07:57 AM   #1810
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Quote:
really? they can be double tracked in the future?
“While the single-track guideway can be designed to accommodate future double tracking if funds were available in the future, GVTA staff believe that reinstatement at a later time would be very costly and disruptive, offsetting the benefit of reduced passenger delays and maintenance based service disruption over the 30-year operating period.”

TransLink director and Richmond Mayor Malcolm Brodie said even though a single track has less visual impact, it would have limited the system’s expandibility.

“To put in only a single track would detract from that expandibility and it would give operational problems at the Richmond end, which would be really difficult to get around,” he said.



I'm not sure how they would double-track it, but my guess is that the guideway supports/pillars are also designed for double-tracks. So to double-track it, they would simply remove the single-tracked guideway and replace it with a double-tracked guideway without demolishing the supports/pillars.




Quote:
If the double tracking is extended to 20 m before the station, so as not to need to change the station plans (reducing cost), the maximum frequency would be about 1 minute (maybe less), which would be good enough.
You can't have a frequency of 1-minute in Richmond and YVR. That'll mean the frequency in Vancouver would have to be something like 30 seconds. The maximum frequency the Seltrac automatic train control can handle, like SkyTrain, is 60 secs. If double track reaches 20-metres before the station, the maximum frequency should be around 2-3 minutes in Richmond/YVR and every 1-1.5 minutes in Vancouver.




Quote:
but 40m platforms will mean that the cars will never be able to be extended.
40-metre platforms are expandable to 50-metres. And that would mean a tiny 10-metre car can be added to the existing 41-metre cars.

2009 41-metre car: (||||||||||||||||||||-||||||||||||||||||||)
future 51-metre car: (||||||||||||||||||||-||||||||||-||||||||||||||||||||)
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"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

Last edited by mr.x; August 25th, 2007 at 08:03 AM.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 08:16 AM   #1811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
“While the single-track guideway can be designed to accommodate future double tracking if funds were available in the future, GVTA staff believe that reinstatement at a later time would be very costly and disruptive, offsetting the benefit of reduced passenger delays and maintenance based service disruption over the 30-year operating period.”

TransLink director and Richmond Mayor Malcolm Brodie said even though a single track has less visual impact, it would have limited the system’s expandibility.

“To put in only a single track would detract from that expandibility and it would give operational problems at the Richmond end, which would be really difficult to get around,” he said.



I'm not sure how they would double-track it, but my guess is that the guideway supports/pillars are also designed for double-tracks. So to double-track it, they would simply remove the single-tracked guideway and replace it with a double-tracked guideway without demolishing the supports/pillars.






You can't have a frequency of 1-minute in Richmond and YVR. That'll mean the frequency in Vancouver would have to be something like 30 seconds. The maximum frequency the Seltrac automatic train control can handle, like SkyTrain, is 60 secs. If double track reaches 20-metres before the station, the maximum frequency should be around 2-3 minutes in Richmond/YVR and every 1-1.5 minutes in Vancouver.






40-metre platforms are expandable to 50-metres. And that would mean a tiny 10-metre car can be added to the existing 41-metre cars.

2009 41-metre car: (||||||||||||||||||||-||||||||||||||||||||)
future 51-metre car: (||||||||||||||||||||-||||||||||-||||||||||||||||||||)
I thought that single tracking was for the aberdeen single tracking thing...

I meant as in 2 cars to Richmond, 1 to YVR, so 1 minute sometimes and 2 minutes sometimes.

Are you sure they can add 10 m cars? I thought that wouldn't be possible because of that married pair thing and because they couldn't manufacture such a short car.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 08:18 AM   #1812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
I'm not sure how they would double-track it, but my guess is that the guideway supports/pillars are also designed for double-tracks. So to double-track it, they would simply remove the single-tracked guideway and replace it with a double-tracked guideway without demolishing the supports/pillars.
That would mean the complete closure of Richmond Centre Station until construction of the new guideway is complete...



Quote:
2009 41-metre car: (||||||||||||||||||||-||||||||||||||||||||)
future 51-metre car: (||||||||||||||||||||-||||||||||-||||||||||||||||||||)
I like your illustration! Very effective and almost looks like the new Canada Line cars too!
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Old August 25th, 2007, 08:28 AM   #1813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada_Line View Post
I thought that single tracking was for the aberdeen single tracking thing...

I meant as in 2 cars to Richmond, 1 to YVR, so 1 minute sometimes and 2 minutes sometimes.

Are you sure they can add 10 m cars? I thought that wouldn't be possible because of that married pair thing and because they couldn't manufacture such a short car.
I think the first 2 cars to Richmond and the third car to YVR would be a good idea, but as officedweller mentioned before it might not be well received by YVR which forked out quite a bit to build the line.

I think they can add 10-metre cars. According to some other forumer that did some calculations quite awhile ago, based on frequency and vehicle capacity the Canada Line will have a capacity of ~8,000 pphpd when it opens. When the higher frequency Service Plan is in operation, the capacity jumps to something like 12,000 pphpd......only with 10-metre longer trains (and platforms) can 15,000 pphpd be reached. And of course, a 10-metre car's capacity is based on the capacity of one Canada Line 20.5-metre vehicle, which is 167 passengers....divided by two for the half-size vehicle is ~80 passengers (equivalent to one-car Mark I or a forty-foot bus).
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"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old August 25th, 2007, 08:42 AM   #1814
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That would mean the complete closure of Richmond Centre Station until construction of the new guideway is complete...
Unfortunately, yes. It was one of the worries of the Translink board that it would be disruptive, and they later decided to provide more funding to make more of the Richmond spur double-tracked. Imagine if most of the Richmond section were single-track.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old August 25th, 2007, 08:16 PM   #1815
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With these tiny cars and stations this has, unfortunatly, turned into a $2billion streetcar. Vancouver should learn from TransitCity in Toronto to begin to build a REAL transit system.
I hope they have {which they won't} make the MLine ext west to accomodate atleast 4 MK11 cars to try to bring it up to subway standards.

BTW..........I know Vancouver is getting 20 {I think} new MK11 cars by 2009, will these cars to used to bring all trains to 6 cars or just replacements for the aging MK1 fleet?
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Old August 25th, 2007, 09:10 PM   #1816
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could it actually be a possibility that they double track it to Richmond City Center station later on?

and could you please send me that article about double tracking, I want to read the article.

what does pphpd mean anyways?

I thought it was supposed to be possible to achieve 15,000 pphpd at the start, not after renovations to the line.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 09:51 PM   #1817
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With these tiny cars and stations this has, unfortunatly, turned into a $2billion streetcar. Vancouver should learn from TransitCity in Toronto to begin to build a REAL transit system.
I hope they have {which they won't} make the MLine ext west to accomodate atleast 4 MK11 cars to try to bring it up to subway standards.

BTW..........I know Vancouver is getting 20 {I think} new MK11 cars by 2009, will these cars to used to bring all trains to 6 cars or just replacements for the aging MK1 fleet?
I agree. But with the Broadway extension, platforms will have to be 80-metres long just like the rest of the M-Line SkyTrain platforms.

Translink ordered 34 additional Mark II cars, they won't be replacements but rather additions to the fleet. We need every car out there.




Quote:
could it actually be a possibility that they double track it to Richmond City Center station later on?
yes.



Quote:
and could you please send me that article about double tracking, I want to read the article.
it's posted in a few previous pages.




Quote:
what does pphpd mean anyways?
people/passengers per hour per direction. i believe SkyTrain had a 25,000 pphpd when it opened in 1986 and that has since grown to 30,000 pphpd with radio and automatic train control upgrades which have lowered the ultimate frequency from 60 secs to 45 secs. Some people say that with further upgrades, SkyTrain could operate as much as 45,000 pphpd.

Toronto's subway line operates with 45,000 pphpd i believe, though i may be wrong.





Quote:
I thought it was supposed to be possible to achieve 15,000 pphpd at the start, not after renovations to the line.
15,000 pphpd is the ultimate design capacity i'm guessing with improvements and an expanded train fleet.

Does anybody know how many cars the OMC can hold?
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"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

Last edited by mr.x; August 25th, 2007 at 10:29 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 10:32 PM   #1818
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Does anybody know how many cars the OMC can hold?
I don`t know, but they would probably have to expand the OMC at the first order of additional cars...

Does anybody know the specific track layout of the system? We know there are single tracks at the end in Richmond and YVR, but what about crossovers, sidings etc.

The reason I`m asking is, what would happen during maintenance, for example track maintenance. On the existing skytrain line, they usually run the east and westbound trains on the same track and do maintenace on the other track. The east and westbound trains would share the same track in between crossovers and the switch back to their own tracks. There are crossovers every 2-3 stations on Expo and Millenium lines.

Here is a link to current skytrain`s track map: http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/va.../skytrmap.html
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Old August 25th, 2007, 11:00 PM   #1819
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I don`t know, but they would probably have to expand the OMC at the first order of additional cars...

Does anybody know the specific track layout of the system? We know there are single tracks at the end in Richmond and YVR, but what about crossovers, sidings etc.

The reason I`m asking is, what would happen during maintenance, for example track maintenance. On the existing skytrain line, they usually run the east and westbound trains on the same track and do maintenace on the other track. The east and westbound trains would share the same track in between crossovers and the switch back to their own tracks. There are crossovers every 2-3 stations on Expo and Millenium lines.

Here is a link to current skytrain`s track map: http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/va.../skytrmap.html
According to the OMC diagrams, it can be expanded....and i think i read somewhere that the maximum capacity is 60 cars, but i'm not sure.

I know for sure there's a crossover at Templeton Station.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old August 26th, 2007, 12:21 AM   #1820
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Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
I don`t know, but they would probably have to expand the OMC at the first order of additional cars...

Does anybody know the specific track layout of the system? We know there are single tracks at the end in Richmond and YVR, but what about crossovers, sidings etc.

The reason I`m asking is, what would happen during maintenance, for example track maintenance. On the existing skytrain line, they usually run the east and westbound trains on the same track and do maintenace on the other track. The east and westbound trains would share the same track in between crossovers and the switch back to their own tracks. There are crossovers every 2-3 stations on Expo and Millenium lines.

Here is a link to current skytrain`s track map: http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/va.../skytrmap.html
There is a map at the community information centre which shows you where the diamond crossings are.
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