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Old August 26th, 2007, 03:24 AM   #1821
OettingerCroat
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how does payment work here? is it per length of trip or simply per ride? i think it should be per ride...
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Old August 26th, 2007, 05:21 AM   #1822
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Originally Posted by OettingerCroat View Post
how does payment work here? is it per length of trip or simply per ride? i think it should be per ride...
It is actually really simple. There are three zones, if you travel within one of any zone it cost CAD $2.25, two $3.25 and three $4.50. Cheaper after hours, weekends and holidays.

Any ticket is valid for 90 minutes of travel, unlimited transfers and any direction, i.e. you could go from home to go shopping and come back again as long as you board the last mode of transit with 90 minutes.

Not a bad system in my opinion, except if you have to travel only a short distance and it crosses a zone, then you have to pay for two zones.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/Transport...re_pricing.asp
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Old August 26th, 2007, 05:52 AM   #1823
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lucky canadians... 200,000 passengers per day, in our collapsed metro system in santiago de chile, everyday travel about 2.5 million passengers on trains smaller and slower than yours...
don't complain, be proud
greetings from chile
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Old August 26th, 2007, 06:25 AM   #1824
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lucky canadians... 200,000 passengers per day, in our collapsed metro system in santiago de chile, everyday travel about 2.5 million passengers on trains smaller and slower than yours...
don't complain, be proud
greetings from chile
Our trains may be faster (80km/h) but they definitely can't be bigger than yours. If our old trains were any smaller, you'd have to call our system a "people mover". In fact, Detroit uses the same trains and it IS called a people mover. Mind you, theirs is just a single track loop.
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Old August 26th, 2007, 06:51 AM   #1825
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Some rare night shots by Vancouverite taken on Aug. 23

Vancouver City Centre station looking South.


Vancouver City Centre station looking North.


Waterfront Station looking North.
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Old August 26th, 2007, 07:51 AM   #1826
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Sometimes, the zone system can be confusing, though...

Anyways, back to talking about the Canada line.

In my opinion, a rapid transit system is supposed to improve the following:

Speed, Frequency, Capacity, Convenience, Reliability and Comfort.

The Canada Line fails to fulfill my expectations in many of these areas (for the long term).

Speed: fulfilled

Frequency: With such long distances of single tracks, frequency is a serious concern. Assuming that the single-tracking section is 650 m, the maximum frequency would be just within 4 minutes. But by measuring on a map, the total single-tracked section seems more like 875 m, which would result in a maximum frequency of about 5 minutes. Although this should be enough for the next 20-30 years, I believe this will become a serious issue after that time period. If they were to come back and turn the single tracks into double tracks (to about 20m away from RCC Station), that would probably cost about $50-100 million, but if they were to do it now, it would probably be just about $9-10 million. Besides, they probably wouldn't come back to it by looking at what happened to the Broadway and Coquitlam extensions of the Millenium Line.

Capacity: As of now, 40-50m platforms are just about enough. But with future ridership growth, an extension of the trains or platforms (past 50m) to accomodate more passengers may be necessary and this may not easily be done again giving me worries. Nevertheless, if the frequencies were faster, this would probably not matter so much...but the trouble now is that the frequencies can only be reduced to a limited degree (as stated above).

Convenience and Accessibility: With just about 1 exit per station, I would not think of this line as convenient. When compared to the stations they have in Hong Kong with about 8-20 or more exits/entries, this is nothing. However, I find this not as important as the other issues.

Reliability: With single tracking, any system failures that occur in these parts will result in big delays or even the closures of stations. I still think this system will be very reliable and on time (better than the B-Line's, probably).

Comfort: With large demand (in the future), large frequencies and small trains, I wouldn't think this system would be very comfortable.

Sorry for my complaint! But I thought of the system would be so great...to have my hopes pulled down like that...
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Old August 26th, 2007, 08:03 AM   #1827
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image hosted on flickr


From that image, the single guideway doesn't seem so small.

Perhaps they could install another track on it without removing the guideways (but maybe it's just that this image is a close up one).

Maybe it's just that they don't want to install another track right now, but I doubt it...

I certainly hope they could install another track...
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Old August 26th, 2007, 08:26 AM   #1828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada_Line View Post
Sometimes, the zone system can be confusing, though...

Anyways, back to talking about the Canada line.

In my opinion, a rapid transit system is supposed to improve the following:

Speed, Frequency, Capacity, Convenience, Reliability and Comfort.

The Canada Line fails to fulfill my expectations in many of these areas (for the long term).

Speed: fulfilled

Frequency: With such long distances of single tracks, frequency is a serious concern. Assuming that the single-tracking section is 650 m, the maximum frequency would be just within 4 minutes. But by measuring on a map, the total single-tracked section seems more like 875 m, which would result in a maximum frequency of about 5 minutes. Although this should be enough for the next 20-30 years, I believe this will become a serious issue after that time period. If they were to come back and turn the single tracks into double tracks (to about 20m away from RCC Station), that would probably cost about $50-100 million, but if they were to do it now, it would probably be just about $9-10 million. Besides, they probably wouldn't come back to it by looking at what happened to the Broadway and Coquitlam extensions of the Millenium Line.

Capacity: As of now, 40-50m platforms are just about enough. But with future ridership growth, an extension of the trains or platforms (past 50m) to accomodate more passengers may be necessary and this may not easily be done again giving me worries. Nevertheless, if the frequencies were faster, this would probably not matter so much...but the trouble now is that the frequencies can only be reduced to a limited degree (as stated above).

Convenience and Accessibility: With just about 1 exit per station, I would not think of this line as convenient. When compared to the stations they have in Hong Kong with about 8-20 or more exits/entries, this is nothing. However, I find this not as important as the other issues.

Reliability: With single tracking, any system failures that occur in these parts will result in big delays or even the closures of stations. I still think this system will be very reliable and on time (better than the B-Line's, probably).

Comfort: With large demand (in the future), large frequencies and small trains, I wouldn't think this system would be very comfortable.

Sorry for my complaint! But I thought of the system would be so great...to have my hopes pulled down like that...
that more or less sums up my thoughts as well.


Speed: 25/26 minutes is faster than the car for most of the day and definitely faster than the B-Line (50+ minutes during peak)

Comfort: the 40/50 metre station platforms could affect comfort, especially if there's large crowds.

Accessibility: it's difficult to maneuver out of a crowded station or crowded concourse/hallway in a narrow station, especially if they install turnstiles in the concourses at stations like Broadway-City Hall and Vancouver City Centre.



Quote:
From that image, the single guideway doesn't seem so small.

Perhaps they could install another track on it without removing the guideways (but maybe it's just that this image is a close up one).
That's my theory that it's "double-trackable" by simply removing the single-track guideway and installing a double-track guideway, because that's the only way how i could see the single-tracked guideway is designed in a way that it can also be double-tracked.



This is where double-tracking at YVR ends (and this is also the site of the future YVR-3 Station):





It's quite hard to tell whether the single-track pillars/supports are the same as double-track pillars.
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Old August 26th, 2007, 09:10 AM   #1829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
It is actually really simple. There are three zones, if you travel within one of any zone it cost CAD $2.25, two $3.25 and three $4.50. Cheaper after hours, weekends and holidays.

Any ticket is valid for 90 minutes of travel, unlimited transfers and any direction, i.e. you could go from home to go shopping and come back again as long as you board the last mode of transit with 90 minutes.

Not a bad system in my opinion, except if you have to travel only a short distance and it crosses a zone, then you have to pay for two zones.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/Transport...re_pricing.asp
thats really good. here in SF we have BART and you have to purchase a specially charged ticket with exactly enough money to get you from your station to the station you're going to. HORRIBLE system.
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Old August 26th, 2007, 10:50 AM   #1830
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Originally Posted by OettingerCroat View Post
thats really good. here in SF we have BART and you have to purchase a specially charged ticket with exactly enough money to get you from your station to the station you're going to. HORRIBLE system.
I actually like that system better, a distance-based system (which requires turnstiles). It's also in use in Hong Kong....on the MTR's fare machines, there's a map and you simply press your station destination and you put in the correct amount of money.
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Old August 27th, 2007, 02:45 AM   #1831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
I actually like that system better, a distance-based system (which requires turnstiles). It's also in use in Hong Kong....on the MTR's fare machines, there's a map and you simply press your station destination and you put in the correct amount of money.
yah i heard about the hong kong one, but even that ones much simpler. the BART ticket machines are incredibly stupid. there is a chart beside the screen, telling you how much a one-way trip costs from your current station to the one you want to get to.

then you have to feed an amount of money into the machine, and often times asking for change back to get an exact ticket back (otherwise you exit the turnstile and get back a $0.15 ticket or so), and you know have a charged debit card of sorts. you feed it into the entry turnstile, and it embeds information onto a magnetic strip as to where you entered the system.

when you exit the terminal station and feed your ticket into the turnstile again, it computes the worth of your ride, deducts it from your ticket, and if there's any worth left, it spits it back out at the other end of the turnstile for you to grab.

because of it being printed on a piece of paper essentially, the magnetic strip is extremely vulnerable. if you put it in the same pocket as your cell phone, the card gets damaged and cant be read by the turnstile. in worse cases, your amount of money gets completely nullified and its up to the BART transit officer at the station to be merciful and write you a pass to your terminal station.

its a wonderful hassle. ideal would be a system like on the parisian metro, where every ride is one ticket. they're cheaper (equivalent to about $1.50 CAD), printed on regular pieces of paper, and MUCH less of a waste of time. a system like this truly might be unfair for the Canada Line, though, as far as I know. Parisian metro has frequent stops due to extreme density so even the longest ride is not much longer than the ones involving just a few stops. Canada line will likely enjoy far lesser ridership than the Parisian metro (duh...) so a more distance-specific payment method does sound fairer.

i'd still the prefer the one-ticket-per-ride-regardless-of-distance method though...

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Old August 27th, 2007, 04:26 AM   #1832
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that more or less sums up my thoughts as well.
It's quite hard to tell whether the single-track pillars/supports are the same as double-track pillars.
They are definitely not the same.
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Old August 27th, 2007, 06:42 AM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Toronto's subway line operates with 45,000 pphpd i believe, though i may be wrong.
The Yonge St. stretch of the Yonge-University-Spadina line is carrying about 48000 ppdph during peak hours at the moment.

I believe the max intended was 40,000 ppdph.

For comparison to Skytrain, the Kelana Jaya line in Kuala Lumpur is running 2-carriage (260 passenger) at about 2-5 minute frequencies...

ppdph during peak hours (1 minute freq) is about 15000 and they will expand to 4 carriage (530 passenger) trains in 2 years.

Cheers, m
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Old August 27th, 2007, 07:51 AM   #1834
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Quote:
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The Yonge St. stretch of the Yonge-University-Spadina line is carrying about 48000 ppdph during peak hours at the moment.

I believe the max intended was 40,000 ppdph.

For comparison to Skytrain, the Kelana Jaya line in Kuala Lumpur is running 2-carriage (260 passenger) at about 2-5 minute frequencies...

ppdph during peak hours (1 minute freq) is about 15000 and they will expand to 4 carriage (530 passenger) trains in 2 years.

Cheers, m
Our SkyTrain uses Mark II trains as well and we use both the 2-car (260 passenger) and 4-car (530 pass./) train lengths. We ordered 34 more Mark II cars for 2009, and that should allow all Mark II trains to be 4-cars long. I believe we currently use around 16,000 pphpd of our 25,000+ pphpd capacity.
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Old August 27th, 2007, 12:38 PM   #1835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Well it's like building the Canada Line from Waterfront Station to Marine Drive Station, rather than building out to Richmond and the airport.
I think its more like Canada Line from Bridgeport (Loading all passengers from bus, like Lougheed Stn) to Broadway (just touch the edge of downtown and then stops)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada_Line View Post
If the double tracking is extended to 20 m before the station, so as not to need to change the station plans (reducing cost), the maximum frequency would be about 1 minute (maybe less), which would be good enough.
Well... then can always short turn every second train at Lansdowne or Aberdeen station, and that can double the frequency without double tracking.....


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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
With the Canada Line, i think the biggest platform extension problem could be Bridgeport Station. You have the expensive flyover/track switch immediately west of the station and then you have the track switches from the OMC immediately east of the station.....the Bridgeport area would have to be completely rebuilt for an extended station beyond 50-metres.
I took a closer look at the consultation material plus an air photo, and I can say that Bridgeport station would actually have space to expand to about 73.5m without having to modify the switch and flyover...

Last edited by nname; August 27th, 2007 at 01:21 PM.
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Old August 27th, 2007, 10:23 PM   #1836
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I took a closer look at the consultation material plus an air photo, and I can say that Bridgeport station would actually have space to expand to about 73.5m without having to modify the switch and flyover...
wow, that's a good find. but are you sure there isn't anything there?
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


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Old August 28th, 2007, 12:31 AM   #1837
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I'm pretty sure the YVR single guideway columns are narrower.
They can always short turn trains at Bridgeport to increase frequency on the mainline. The most crowds will come from south-of-Fraser buses @ Bridgeport and within the City of Vancouver.

*****************

Pic by Stephen Rees more clearly showing the pedestrian pathway dated Aug 25, 2007:

http://stephenrees.wordpress.com/200.../#comment-6297

image hosted on flickr


And this shot showing the mainline guideway through the OMC almost complete:

image hosted on flickr
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Old August 28th, 2007, 12:34 AM   #1838
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I recently looked at a map of the Canada Line and I think it tells how long the single tracking is.

It looks like the YVR single tracking section is almost double more than the length of single tracking at Richmond Center.

And I think it said somewhere that the single tracking is 650m at the airport, so 400 or 450m at Richmond Center?
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Old August 28th, 2007, 02:51 AM   #1839
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The Environmental Assessment Certificate application and amendments show the YVR single track segment as 650m (including a 42m tail track, so really 608m). See Section 2.2 here (in particular, section 2.2.3). Won't significantly impact even after train frequency increases from every 6 min to every 4 min on the YVR leg in the year 2040.

http://www.eao.gov.bc.ca/epic/output...739c594d12.pdf

Couldn't find current info on the Richmond segent - the EAO website shows out-of-date information with the station on the west side of No. 3 Rd.

BTW - the EAO aplication provides interesting information regarding InTransitBC's proposal (as proposed at the time (Dec 2004) - numerous changes have been made since then, including single tracking the termini, changing stacked to side-by-side, casting in place, etc.).

http://www.eao.gov.bc.ca/epic/output...208_19477.html


*************


New pics on the Canada Line website courtesy of Jim Jorgenson Photography:

















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Old August 28th, 2007, 06:58 AM   #1840
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wow, great info thx.

Quote:
The Environmental Assessment Certificate application and amendments show the YVR single track segment as 650m (including a 42m tail track, so really 608m). See Section 2.2 here (in particular, section 2.2.3). Won't significantly impact even after train frequency increases from every 6 min to every 4 min on the YVR leg in the year 2040.
2040? i think it'll be more like 2020.
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