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Old July 29th, 2009, 09:06 PM   #2361
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Old July 30th, 2009, 04:56 AM   #2362
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Old July 30th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #2363
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Old July 30th, 2009, 07:17 PM   #2364
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unique stands / bowl
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Old July 30th, 2009, 08:37 PM   #2365
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That's what I was going for!
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Old July 31st, 2009, 07:54 PM   #2366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skaP187 View Post
The search for the perfect stadium shape brought me passed the following design this time.
Prototype design that is as I am not much into details.







The two rings variant...









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Old July 31st, 2009, 08:03 PM   #2367
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Then it´s only a matter of time that some one makes a three ring model too!
Me in this case...









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Old July 31st, 2009, 10:06 PM   #2368
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I just downloaded the Stadium Design Guide. Well, conclusion is that designing stadiums in Sketchup suddenly becomes a lot harder, if you want them to be realistic...

The ideal football stadium shape concentrates spectators around the goal area and along the middle line and doesn't have seating beyond a certain radius from the midpoint. Thus, an oval shape with overlapping tiers is best.
Secondly, there is the famous c-factor. Before, I didn't care about it and just drew lines from the stands towards the pitch. But I forgot that when people actually take place on the stands, those lines are worthless.

Designing a big stadium with all comfort that has stands close to the pitch but where everybody can see everything or at least what they need to see... it's not the easy task it seemed before...

And it becomes even more difficult in the next case, a stadium I'm trying to design for the moment:
Stadium for football and athletics, with retractable stands than can be brought very close to the pitch (less than 10m, much closer than at Stade de France). Minimum capacity in athletics mode: 50,000. In football mode: different configurations, ranging from 30,000 (domestic league games) to 85,000 (World Cup final).
This is just a test for the lower tier. Light blue = retractable. Sightlines are okay everyway, considering the c-factor. As you might be able to see, the stands bend upwards (get slightly steeper). The lowest row is only 20cm high, but on the highest I'm already at 47cm. And I've only reached a capacity of around 30,000 right now, so 85,000 is still a long way to go. I don't know how much steeper it will get... but I'm guessing pretty much, especially considering I still have to but in executive boxes and so forth. The distance spectators-pitch is also getting bigger and bigger: currently at 45m at the back row... I should also do something about the goal stands and corners, those straight stands really look awful in athletics configuration and so do those too big open corners. I'll probably go for curved goal stands made up of different segments, which move backwards and spread out in athletics mode.




An idea of what I'm getting at with the segmented curved goal stand design:




Not exactly what I want though, should be even closer to the pitch and spread out more for athletics.
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Last edited by Chimaera; July 31st, 2009 at 10:29 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 09:32 AM   #2369
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Interesting and complicated.
Something like in Valencia would make things easyer I think. A system which takes away the first tear and just pushes up the floor to the second ring.
A French sytstem would keep the distences relavtively big I think.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 09:34 AM   #2370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.C. View Post
**** u imageshack
**** u Spanish internet...
**** u Sketch up with f... up ovals.
And what might concern you, maybe try tinypic.com
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Old August 1st, 2009, 11:06 AM   #2371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
This is just a test for the lower tier. Light blue = retractable. Sightlines are okay everyway, considering the c-factor. As you might be able to see, the stands bend upwards (get slightly steeper). The lowest row is only 20cm high, but on the highest I'm already at 47cm. And I've only reached a capacity of around 30,000 right now, so 85,000 is still a long way to go. I don't know how much steeper it will get... but I'm guessing pretty much, especially considering I still have to but in executive boxes and so forth. The distance spectators-pitch is also getting bigger and bigger: currently at 45m at the back row... I should also do something about the goal stands and corners, those straight stands really look awful in athletics configuration and so do those too big open corners. I'll probably go for curved goal stands made up of different segments, which move backwards and spread out in athletics mode.
What C-value are you working with? Do you have different row height for every step or every couple of steps?
I think you can't have the perfect C-value (150mm if I remember correctly) for every row. I read somewhere that the maximum angle of a stand for modern stadiums is about 40 degrees, so about 70cm for a row depth of 80cm. If you're already at 47cm for 30'000 and without boxes and only one tier, your last row will probably be too high.

About the bowl shape I agree with skaP187, Valencia is probably one of the best, with the first tier pretty close to the field and the others getting more oval.


@Ozric: Great work!
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Old August 1st, 2009, 06:24 PM   #2372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpioe View Post
What C-value are you working with? Do you have different row height for every step or every couple of steps?
I think you can't have the perfect C-value (150mm if I remember correctly) for every row. I read somewhere that the maximum angle of a stand for modern stadiums is about 40 degrees, so about 70cm for a row depth of 80cm. If you're already at 47cm for 30'000 and without boxes and only one tier, your last row will probably be too high.

About the bowl shape I agree with skaP187, Valencia is probably one of the best, with the first tier pretty close to the field and the others getting more oval.


@Ozric: Great work!
I gave up on the athletics/football stadium for now and tried out a pure football stadium using the C-factor. The margin between the field and the stands has been kept at the recommended minimum of 6 and 7.5m. Both the bottom and top tier get gradually steeper (for example 10 rows 35cm, then 15 rows 40cm high). The back row of every group of rows with the same step height has a C-factor of 90mm, so the rows in front of it that have the same steepness have a slightly better C-factor.
I started at 30cm step height, the very top rows are 63cm high (resulting in a steepness of 38.2°).
A second consideration in my design are the guidelines concerning optimum distances to the pitch. I changed the original full bowl design (62,000 capacity; same height everywhere) by drawing an octagon from the center of the field with a 90m-radius (corresponding with the last row of the side stands); moving both halves towards the goal stands to match the last rows of those stands; intersecting the "stretched" octagon with the stadium bowl; cutting away all parts behind the octagon; and finally reducing the height of the goal stands to reduce the distance between the top row and the center of the field (from 111 to 106m).



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Last edited by Chimaera; August 1st, 2009 at 07:26 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 09:41 PM   #2373
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Quote:
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I just downloaded the Stadium Design Guide.
Is there a chance you could share it?
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Old August 1st, 2009, 09:47 PM   #2374
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Quote:
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Is there a chance you could share it?
No need to share it, you can download it yourself I got the link from MoRush, just register at scribd.com and you can get it at the following page: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13320073/S...elopment-Guide

But frankly, all that technical stuff just takes the fun out of stadium design... If I compare the images I posted higher with some of my earlier creations...

Ozric, great stadium. I had a similar concept in mind some time ago. Not exactly the same, but with similar roof and stand shapes.
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Last edited by Chimaera; August 1st, 2009 at 10:01 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 10:08 PM   #2375
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Thanks
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Old August 1st, 2009, 10:38 PM   #2376
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U guys are applying C-Value all wrong. C-Value is calculated to every single row and not to a group of rows.

C-Value must be applied to every row. This means all rows must have different heights. C-Value is the vertical distance between the "line of view" of the person in the front row and the "line of view" of the person in the row behind.

"Line of view" is an imaginary line that goes from the viewer eyes to the pith line, without any visibility blocking.

If you make 10 rows with same height (30cm for ex), and row 1 has a C-Value of 9cm, the other 9 rows will have a C-Value of 0cm, because C-Value takes in consideration a person, with your height, right in front of your view. The "line of view" of the person behind you will be blocked by your big head.

If you increase the height of a stand from 5 to 5 or 10 to 10 rows only the 1st row of each group will have a C-Value




Example of wrong and right c-value




Stadium model i did some months ago using C-Value of 9cm to 12cm and some other rules (largest distance to pitch and max row angle - 35º)







Sry for the size of the pictures to those who get upset with it
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 12:03 AM   #2377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpioe View Post
I read somewhere that the maximum angle of a stand for modern stadiums is about 40 degrees, so about 70cm for a row depth of 80cm.
actually the max angle for a stand is 35º (37º or 38º for vip stands and boxes)


Here is a sample of the best book about stadiums - Stadium Atlas - with some good info for your future designs - http://www.wiley-vch.de/books/sample..._ppdiverse.pdf
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 12:26 AM   #2378
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Thanks for the link.
I have my number from the book
"Stadia: a design and development guide" but I wasn't sure anymore.

About the C Value: In the same book they have a different definition of the C Value then you showed. Check page 115 of it on Google Books:
http://books.google.ch/books?id=2lBt...0value&f=false
The image at the bottom. The lines from the eyes of the person don't show all to the same point (corner flag in your drawing), they are parallel.
According to your definition, wouldn't most rows of actual stadiums have a C value of zero, since, as far as I know, at least the older stadiums have the same row height over an entire tier. Of course there are exceptions like Stade de Gerland where you can clearly see that they are non linear even on TV.

I once tried a stadium with consideration of C Values, the first row was 22cm and each new one was 0.4cm higher if I remember correctly. However I stopped after a while since it takes a lot longer... I admire your patience if you considered it for the whole stadium. Did you calculate them by hand or with a computer program?
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 02:14 AM   #2379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpioe View Post
Thanks for the link.
I have my number from the book
"Stadia: a design and development guide" but I wasn't sure anymore.

About the C Value: In the same book they have a different definition of the C Value then you showed. Check page 115 of it on Google Books:
http://books.google.ch/books?id=2lBt...0value&f=false
The image at the bottom. The lines from the eyes of the person don't show all to the same point (corner flag in your drawing), they are parallel.
According to your definition, wouldn't most rows of actual stadiums have a C value of zero, since, as far as I know, at least the older stadiums have the same row height over an entire tier. Of course there are exceptions like Stade de Gerland where you can clearly see that they are non linear even on TV.

I once tried a stadium with consideration of C Values, the first row was 22cm and each new one was 0.4cm higher if I remember correctly. However I stopped after a while since it takes a lot longer... I admire your patience if you considered it for the whole stadium. Did you calculate them by hand or with a computer program?
Ipioe the book you show there (i have it in pdf) doesn't have a different definition for C-value from mine. Just take a look at that same pag 115 to the top picture... it shows the vertical distance i show in my drawing, as C-value. I just simplified the definition to make it more clear to you guys.

In the image at the bottom those parallel lines are not exact... what i mean is that they are there just as an example, so they draw those lines that way, so don't take them so literally. I did the same with the corner flag, witch was drawn just to point the pitch line... and because i saw the same in some pictures that you can see below.

Old stadiums don´t take many (or even all) of these rules in consideration, cause many of them didn't exist at the time, so they don't even have a C-value... that's why we have in this forum a topic about bad views - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=906730 - with hilarious pictures.


To clear this up take a look to the next pictures from a Stefan Nixdorf book (the same from Stadium Atlas) witch are a lot better.





one of the Allianz Arena stands cross section, with the C-Value from the 1st and last row from each stand.




About my model, all values were made by hand without any software for that purpose and only took 3h to do the entire bowl.

I hope some day to learn how to do scripts in 3ds max, and make one to design stands with c-value included.
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 02:31 AM   #2380
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Ipioe the pag 119 says that 34º is the max acceptable angle of rake. The value 40º, actually is 41º is the max accepted in Italy.

Also check figure 7.18 text in same pag. The riser heights will vary from each row to the next, to maintain a specified C-value in each row of a tier, heigth of riser will not be contant.
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