PARIS | Projects & Construction

[Newcastle Guy]

Originally Posted by Phil

Regarding London and Paris, both cities are doing great. No need to have some secret agreement between the UK and France

I totally agree, the same goes for the likes of Moscow, Istanbul etc

[markycrossley]

i was just there : )

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Black Cat

Offering enormous tax breaks to office developers must be expensive for Paris - a financial incentive not offered to London developers, who in contrast must offer significant benefits/planning gain etc. such as affordable housing or infrastructure investments to London to obtain permission to construct.

As Phil already said, it's not really a tax break. I don't know why people in the UK or the US always believe things in France are "subsidized". So if Airbus is doing great, well, it's just because it's subsidized. If Paris builds supertalls, well, it's subsidized. It's rather facile to underplay other countries' achievements like that.

The tax we're talking about is a tax on new office space. Every developer who builds office space must pay a certain amount of money per sq. meter they build. This tax only exists in the Paris Region. It doesn't exist in the rest of France. I believe it was created in the 1960s in order to finance public transport investment in the Paris metro area. The idea was: companies benefit from a better transport system, so it's normal they give a little bit of money to help develop it. This tax doesn't exist in the UK. So in a way, London developers already benefit from a "tax break". Now developers in La Défense will also benefit from this tax break (only for reconstruction of demolished towers, not for new constructions on empty lots).

[Black Cat]

The more one crunches the numbers and considers the scale of operation proposed (net gain of 4,5Mft2 of office space over 7 yrs, total construction of 8.3M2 office space - similar to the scale and pace of development at CW) the more it appears that Paris/LD is aiming to reconstruct LD to match the scale of Canary Wharf, though with a 300m centre tower to mimic the Shard or the Broadgate Tower. I'm not saying there is a formal agreement between London and Paris re max ht for buildings, but there is a lot of coincidence wouldn't you agree? Also, are there normally big tax breaks generally for an office building owner in Paris who reconstructs/upgrades/invests in his buildings? If the tax break was not significant why mention it? Sounds like the tax break is highly significant, you don't demolish large buildings without a compelling reason - including in London. As said, sounds like Paris is offering a very hefty financial incentive to developers to rebuild their older less glam (obsolete?) LD towers to bring them up to par to London by 2013-15. I would imagine the construction will need to be phased for swing space reasons, but seven years may be ambitious to complete this program unless current office occupants relocate across Paris temporarily.

[Metropolitan]

Actually Black Cat, the only thing I can conclude from your paragraph is that you severly lack of objectivity.

[Phil]

Well, let's see, during the last 7 years :
Egée, Adria, CBX, Coeur Défense, EDF, Defense Plaza, Exaltis,+ Granite and T1 under construction, that represents about 600 000m² of new office space; + some buildings below 50 meters, renovations of Vista, Ariane, Opus12, Cb16...
See, no need to go to Canary Wharf to see a similar pace.
Btw, what do you mean by "LD is aiming to match the scale of Canary Wharf" ?

The reason why the government wants to favor the replacement of older buildings asap is because they're obsolete as you say, compared to the new buildings built in Ld, in Brussels, in London, in Madrid.... the world doesn't revolve around London.
Regarding the tax break, it's mainly there to fasten the renewal of LD, and I don't think it's that amazing to allow the owners of a dozen buildings to pay a tax on the space they add instead of the space they rebuild.

[brunob]

Originally Posted by Black Cat

I'm not saying there is a formal agreement between London and Paris re max ht for buildings, but there is a lot of coincidence wouldn't you agree?

It would be absurd for a city like Paris to not want to better herself in regard to competitivity factor with other major players. I've seen plenty of office buildings thruout London getting a total makeover, when the interior is totally gutted and rebuilt to today's standards - yet you don't mention that, it may not be a hight increase but it sure is a maximising scheme as far as office space is concerned.
Wether tax breaks are involved or not, the final aim of such an operation is rather obvious, be it in London, Paris, or any other city - why, once again focussing on Paris and trying to imply there's a fishy way of operating when all you have to do is wishing us well?

As said, sounds like Paris is offering a very hefty financial incentive to developers to rebuild their older less glam (obsolete?) LD towers to bring them up to par to London by 2013-15. I would imagine the construction will need to be phased for swing space reasons, but seven years may be ambitious to complete this program unless current office occupants relocate across Paris temporarily.

Is that a bad thing? Do you see the incentive as a dirty way to attract potential companies away from London? If London was the way you describe the Paris office market situation is, would you not wish for a big shake-up in order to bring it up to date?

[bnmaddict]

Originally Posted by Black Cat

The more one crunches the numbers and considers the scale of operation proposed (net gain of 4,5Mft2 of office space over 7 yrs, total construction of 8.3M2 office space - similar to the scale and pace of development at CW) the more it appears that Paris/LD is aiming to reconstruct LD to match the scale of Canary Wharf, though with a 300m centre tower to mimic the Shard or the Broadgate Tower.

I don't understand what you mean... LD is already 3 times larger than CW! The goal of this operation is certainly not to shrink LD to match the size of CW!?! The total office space to be built/rebuilt, at 8.3M sq.ft is actually nearly as large as nowdays Canary Wharf!

Do we officialy have a new troll, gentlemen?

[brisavoine]

In La Défense there are currently 3.5 million m² (38 million sq. ft) of office space. 134,000 more m² (1.45 million sq. ft) are currently under construction (T1 Tower and Granite Tower). The La Défense development project will add 450,000 m² (4.8 million sq. ft) of office space by 2013 to the current total. So by 2013 we should have a little more than 4 million m² (ca. 44 million sq. ft) of office space in La Défense.

How many square feet of office space is there in Canary Wharf?

[Newcastle Guy]

Originally Posted by brisavoine

In La Défense there are currently 3.5 million m² (38 million sq. ft) of office space. 134,000 more m² (1.45 million sq. ft) are currently under construction (T1 Tower and Granite Tower). The La Défense development project will add 450,000 m² (4.8 million sq. ft) of office space by 2013 to the current total. So by 2013 we should have a little more than 4 million m² (ca. 44 million sq. ft) of office space in La Défense.

How many square feet of office space is there in Canary Wharf?

There is Currently only 1.3 million sqm (Approx) in CW, about 2 million less than La defense, but there are currently plans to build another 1.2 million sqm (Approx), more planned than at La Defense.

They are both large districts, and they compete with the cbds of our great cities for office space, which in the end is a good thing.

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy

There is Currently only 1.3 million sqm (Approx) in CW
there are currently plans to build another 1.2 million sqm (Approx).

Sources please?

[Phil]

No need for a source, Newcastle-kid is right, both districts are big and they both have a role in their respective city. No need to change this into another dick contest. Let's focus on Paris projects.

[brisavoine]

No, I'm interested in that figure, as I couldn't find it online.

[wjfox]

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Sources please?

http://www.canarywharf.com/mainFrm1....dArea=Factfile

[brisavoine]

The link you gave groups both office and retail space together, so that's still not the actual office space figure.

[brisavoine]

Well, after a long search, this is what I found. According to http://www.cwcontractors.com/built.asp, there are approximately 550,000 sq. ft of retail space in Canary Wharf, so that means the actual office space figure is around 13.5 million sq. ft.

So then, we have 1.25 million m² (13.5 million sq. ft) of office space in Canary Wharf vs. 3.5 million m² (38 million sq. ft) in La Défense.

We have 50,000 m² (550,000 sq. ft) of retail space in Canary Wharf vs. 230,000 m² (2.5 million sq. ft) in La Défense.

There are 80,000 workers in Canary Wharf vs. 170,000 in La Défense.

55,000 people live in Canary Wharf vs. 20,000 in La Défense.

Interesting figures overall. I'm most surprised by the retail space figures, as people in Paris often complain that La Défense doesn't have enough stores and shopping malls.

[wjfox]

Originally Posted by brisavoine

There are 80,000 workers in Canary Wharf vs. 170,000 in La Défense.

And there are 320,000 workers in the City of London

[bnmaddict]

Originally Posted by wjfox2002

And there are 320,000 workers in the City of London

So what? There are at least as much workers in and around the Golden Triangle in Paris...

As usual, Will can't understand that most of Paris' 40 Millions sqm of office spaces are OUTSIDE of LD...

Are we comparing CW with LD or the whole of London metro area with Paris metro area, again?

[Newcastle Guy]

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Sources please?

I found the office space for every single building past and present and added them up, so obviously thats why I say approx.

In a way I'm envious of La Defense when it comes to that and CW, because although they both have very good expansion plans, La Defense has what you see in this thread and CW has it's projects which hope to boost the work force from 90,000 in 2008 to 200,000 in 2020, La Defense has the ability to build 300m buildings while CW is stuck at the 240m-250m mark at best.

As I said before though it is good that our cities have these extra districts so they can grow through competition

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by wjfox2002

And there are 320,000 workers in the City of London

Originally Posted by bnmaddict

So what? There are at least as much workers in and around the Golden Triangle in Paris...

At the 1999 census, there were 395,768 workers in Paris's "Quartier Central des Affaires", which is the area between the Champs-Élysées, the Opéra, and the Palais Royal. Auber station, on the RER A line, is at the center of the Quartier Central des Affaires. Just pay a visit to that station at rush hour, Wjfox, for a sense of Paris business world.