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Old April 28th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #4801
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Originally Posted by Clery View Post
The Paris report refers to Paris and inner ring departments, which is an area of roughly the same size.
Lol..no.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #4802
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Originally Posted by Clery View Post
The Paris report refers to Paris and inner ring departments, which is an area of roughly the same size.
It's impossible to compare because it comes down to how you define Paris. I was just pointing out that the statement about Greater London is incorrect as it only relates to central London. I'd have said that the comparison is better with 75 and La Defense, but like I said, there are many different ways to define Paris so it's a pointless comparison. If you're including the inner ring departments then you should include more than just the central business area of London.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #4803
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Here we go again, ffs get a life people!
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Old April 28th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #4804
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Originally Posted by Clery View Post
The Paris report refers to Paris and inner ring departments, which is an area of roughly the same size.
Exactly. But they are so drugged with their spam-posting in the London threads that they have long lost sight of reality, and can't even conceive that Paris may have more projects and developments going on than London.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:01 PM   #4805
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Originally Posted by Smarty View Post
It's impossible to compare because it comes down to how you define Paris.
Whichever way you define Paris, there are more projects going on there than in London, whether you compare the 90 km² of Central Paris to the 90 km² at the heart of London, or the 750 km² of Central Paris + Inner Suburbs to the 750 km² of Inner London and neighboring areas, or the 12,000 km² of Greater Paris and the 12,000 km² of Greater London + the surrounding counties.

The only reason why some forumers don't perceive this is because the Parisian forumers couldn't care less about posting each and every project going on in Paris, unlike the forumers from a certain other city.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #4806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Whichever way you define Paris, there are more projects going on there than in London, whether you compare the 90 km² of Central Paris to the 90 km² at the heart of London, or the 750 km² of Central Paris + Inner Suburbs to the 750 km² of Inner London and neighboring areas, or the 12,000 km² of Greater Paris and the 12,000 km² of Greater London + the surrounding counties.

The only reason why some forumers don't perceive this is because the Parisian forumers couldn't care less about posting each and every project going on in Paris, unlike the forumers from a certain other city.
Where are all these projects then? Why I hardly see any cranes when I come to Paris. You must be hiding something somewhere then. Show us... Any good quality residential highrises, love to see them...
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #4807
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Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Where are all these projects then? Why I hardly see any cranes when I come to Paris. You must be hiding something somewhere then. Show us... Any good quality residential highrises, love to see them...
Because when you visit Paris, you hardly go beyond the historical core of the city. And indeed, Paris doesn't build much in its historical core (there's still some large projects such as Les Halles or the New Samaritaine Department stores, but that's still not so much). At the opposite, London has many projects in its very central areas (The City and the areas surrounding mainlines stations).

I do believe London is right to do so and Paris does a big mistake in building almost exclusively on the fringes of the core, but that's the way it is. It doesn't change anything about Brisavoine's statement though.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:24 PM   #4808
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Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Where are all these projects then? Why I hardly see any cranes when I come to Paris.
Because:
a- Paris is BIG
and b- you probably stay only in the tourist areas

So you couldn't know about those projects if you stay only in a few central touristy areas, because the metropolis is just too huge to be able to even see cranes on the horizon if you only stay in those central touristy areas. In London, on the other hand, the projects and developments are concentrated in a few central areas which also happen to be tourist areas, so the projects there are more visible to tourists.

As for cranes, as of September 2012 the Paris crane survey counted 62 cranes in Central Paris and the innermost suburbs (an area roughly the same size as Inner London), and this does not even include the cranes working on residential, commercial, and cultural projects.

For example the 4 cranes to the right in this picture are not counted among the 62 cranes of the Paris crane survey, because they are working on a cultural project, the Fondation Louis Vuitton.

[IMG]http://i46.************/2w4g22a.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.************/bgxyck.jpg[/IMG]
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:24 PM   #4809
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Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
Here we go again, ffs get a life people!
Oh, please! Do not dare to troll this deeply interesting discussion, we are about to know which city is better, if London or Paris.

Please kids, go on with your argumentation.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #4810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clery View Post
Following large constructions currently in progress is great! What would you want instead? To report every crappy 6-storey buildings being built in the urban area like it's done in another thread? Very interesting!
Surely you must mean this project but I actually liked that and would love to see more of this
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:35 PM   #4811
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Originally Posted by deckard_6 View Post
we are about to know which city is better, if London or Paris
I've known that for years))
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:37 PM   #4812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Because:
a- Paris is BIG
and b- you probably stay only in the tourist areas

So you couldn't know about those projects if you stay only in a few central touristy areas, because the metropolis is just too huge to be able to even see cranes on the horizon if you only stay in those central touristy areas. In London, on the other hand, the projects and developments are concentrated in a few central areas which also happen to be tourist areas, so the projects there are more visible to tourists.

As for cranes, as of September 2012 the Paris crane survey counted 62 cranes in Central Paris and the innermost suburbs (an area roughly the same size as Inner London), and this does not even include the cranes working on residential, commercial, and cultural projects.

For example the 4 cranes to the right in this picture are not counted among the 62 cranes of the Paris crane survey, because they are working on a cultural project, the Fondation Louis Vuitton.

Last time I was in Paris as a tourist was in 2002 or 2003, can't remember, now I only come on business and usually stay in suburbs. Yes, I can see some development around these areas but mainly low rise office development and very little residential, and especially high-rise residential projects. That's why I was wondering if anything happens around Paris and how good quality residential projects look in Paris as I hardly see them, maybe because of the areas I visit.

Many residential projects projects in London are not in tourist areas and hardly seen from anywhere, areas such as Lewisham are not tourist at all.

It would nice to see similar list for Paris as well: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post102719388
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:42 PM   #4813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Any good quality residential highrises, love to see them...
Just this week a Parisian forumer posted pictures in the French forum about this residential development that 99% of us had no idea about:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Most of the time, however, the Parisian forumers can't be bothered if it's not a project in the top 10 of Paris's biggest projects, which is why what you see in this thread, and on SCC in general, is just the tiny tip of the iceberg of what's going on in Paris.

For example there is this residential highrise currently under construction to the south-west of Central Paris, in an area denser than the densest parts of London, but we wouldn't even have a picture of it if Minato Ku hadn't especially spent 1 hour of Métro to go there and back last week to take pictures of it (and needless to say, you the tourist in the central touristy areas could not see this U/C building above the horizon, the place being way too far from the most central touristy areas).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Oui moi et sous la pluie.

Voila l’opération où est situer l'immeuble de 18 étages.
Je ne sais pas lequel des bâtiment est la tour mais à mon avis elle est bien en construction.




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Last edited by brisavoine; April 28th, 2013 at 05:49 PM.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #4814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Just this week a Parisian forumer posted pictures in the French forum about this residential development that 99% of us had no idea about:


Most of the time, however, the Parisian forumers can't be bothered if it's not a project in the top 10 of Paris's biggest projects, which is why what you see in this thread, and on SCC in general, is just the tiny tip of the iceberg of what's going on in Paris.

For example there is this residential highrise currently under construction to the south-west of Central Paris, in an area denser than the densest parts of London, but we wouldn't even have a picture of it if Minato Ku hadn't especially spent 1 hour of Métro back and forth last week to take pictures of it (and needless to say, you the tourist in the central touristy areas could not see this U/C building above the horizon, the place being way too far from the most central touristy areas).
This is actually very good. Any renders for the last project?
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Old April 28th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #4815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Yes, I can see some development around these areas but mainly low rise office development and very little residential, and especially high-rise residential projects. That's why I was wondering if anything happens around Paris and how good quality residential projects look in Paris as I hardly see them, maybe because of the areas I visit.
In the past 10 years, the outer arrondissements of Paris and the innermost suburbs (especially the latter) have registered tremendous demographic growth, so there must certainly be lots of residential new developments there, but most of us are not aware of these, because like I said the Parisian forumers usually can't be bothered if it's not a major project.

Here are the outer arrondissements and inner suburbs of Paris which grew the most between 2006 and 2010 (the outer arrondissements are each about two-third the size of a London borough, but the inner suburbs are each only about one-seventh the size of a London borough):
- 16th arrondissement: +4,301 inhabitants per year between 2006 and 2010
- 18th arrondissement: +2,958
- Saint-Denis: +2,228
- 17th arrondissement: +2,000
- Villejuif: +1,230
- Choisy-le-Roi: +1,177
- Le Plessis-Robinson: +1,104
- Saint-Ouen: +1,060
- Boulogne-Billancourt: +989
- 14th arrondissement: +982
- 15th arrondissement: +942
- 20th arrondissement: +919
- Montrouge: +855
- Colombes: +843
- 10th arrondissement: +828
- Courbevoie: +764
- Épinay-sur-Seine: +730
- Issy-les-Moulineaux: +721
- 13th arrondissement: +704
- 12th arrondissement: +686
etc.

Most of these are midrise developments though. Residential highrises are still a bit taboo in Greater Paris, due to the bad experience with highrise social housing in the 1960s and 1970s, but I believe this is going to change. Emin Iskenderov is about to break a taboo by building his supertall mostly residential twin towers at La Défense, and in Central Paris there are more and more talks of densifying the already very dense inner city by building upwards. Jean Nouvel has started by building a residential highrise in Boulogne-Billancourt 2-3 years ago, and there may already be some other residential highrise projects around the Périphérique, but I'm not following these very carefully.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 06:30 PM   #4816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
There is actually more floor space under construction in Greater Paris right now than in Greater London.

According to the Paris and London crane surveys, at the end of September 2012 there were 1,342,916 m² (14,455,027 sq. ft) of office space under construction in Greater Paris vs. only 839,380 m² (9,035,000 sq. ft) in Greater London.

Sources:
http://www.deloitterecrute.fr/sites/...ane_survey.pdf
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/...ter-2012-2.pdf
With the greatest respect, i said developments, i didn't just mean office floor space.

New private residential developments are by far the biggest growth area in London at the moment with foreign investment flooding into the city, even from Paris!

There is also massive public investment being made with Crossrail and other transport developments. I know there are plans currently being drawn up for the Metro.

With the greatest respect to you, i say again the big developments in Paris that you regularly update us on are of a very high quality, but there definitely isn't the same scale of investment going on right now, there just isnt!

I know there are more plans currently going through planning, but actual projects, no.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 06:31 PM   #4817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
This is actually very good. Any renders for the last project?
Renders in France are generally of very poor quality, especially for non-major projects. I've seen these two renders, but we won't know for sure how the tower looks like until it's completed. Apparently 19 floors.





The developer has also made this video of the project:
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Old April 28th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #4818
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
In the past 10 years......

All very interesting, but you still haven't backed up your claim that Paris has more being developed than this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
London

Large scale (+£1 billion) active projects in London. List incomplete:


HS2 project: £32 billion ($50bn)
High Speed 2


Nine Elms project: £15 billion ($23bn)
Nine Elms London

Crossrail project: £15 billion ($23bn)
Crossrail stations & associated works | Various sites | London | U/C

Crossrail 2 project: £10 billion ($16bn)
Crossrail 2

Earls Court project: £8 billion ($12.4bn)
Earls Court £8bn Regeneration | Hammersmith & Fulham | Approved

Thameslink project: £6 billion ($9.3bn)
Thameslink

Greenwich Peninsula project: £5 billion ($7.7bn)
Greenwich Peninsula - Various projects

Brent Cross Cricklewood project: £4.5 billion ($7bn)
Brent Cross Cricklewood £4.5bn Regeneration | Barnet | Approved

Canning Town & Custom House project: £3.7 billion ($5.7bn)
Work begins on £3.7billion Canning Town and Custom House regeneration scheme

Wembley City project: £3.4 billion ($5.3bn)
Wembley City £3.4bn Regeneration | Brent | U/C

Chelsea Barracks project: £3 billion ($4.6bn)
Chelsea Barracks £3bn redevelopment | Westminster | Proposed

Aylesbury project: £2.5 billion ($3.9bn)
Aylesbury £2.5bn Regeneration | Southwark | Demo + U/C

Blackwall Reach project: £2.5 billion ($3.9bn)
Blackwall Reach £1.5bn Regeneration | Tower Hamlets | Demo

Heathrow Terminal 2 project: £2.5 billion ($3.9bn)
Heathrow East/Terminal 2 | Heathrow Airport | London | U/C

King's Cross project: £2 billion ($3.1bn)
King's Cross Central | Camden & Islington | U/C

Wood Wharf project: £2 billion ($3.1bn)
Wood Wharf: major expansion of Canary Wharf | 200m/187m/182m/154m | Approved

Elephant and Castle project: £1.5 billion ($2.3bn)
Elephant & Castle £1.5bn Regeneration | Southwark | Approved

London Gateway Port project: £1.5 billion ($2.3bn)
London Gateway, 3.5 million TEU container port, UC

The International Quarter project: £1.3 billion ($2bn)
International Quarter

East Village project: £1.1 billion ($1.7bn)
East Village E20 | 68 apt blocks / 17,000 Population | U/C

Kidbrooke Village project: £1 billion ($1.6bn)
Kidbrooke Village £1bn Regeneration | Greenwich | Demo + U/C

Television Centre project: £1 billion ($1.6bn)
Television Centre £1bn redevelopment | Hammersmith & Fulham | Proposed

Westfield Croydon project: £1 billion ($1.6bn)
Westfield Croydon

Westfield White City project: £1 billion ($1.6bn)
Westfield London (White City)

Too many to list below £1 billion.

In your own time, there's no rush, we can wait...
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Old April 28th, 2013, 07:14 PM   #4819
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR View Post
All very interesting, but you still haven't backed up your claim that Paris has more being developed than this..
In your own time, there's no rush, we can wait...
Well, no1s fault, Brits have no high-speed train lines and underground local trains in London before These projects are catch-ups, not a revolution
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Old April 28th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #4820
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i say again the big developments in Paris that you regularly update us on are of a very high quality, but there definitely isn't the same scale of investment going on right now, there just isnt!
Well there is, I can assure you there is. Paris has a larger metropolitan economy than London, and also robust demographic growth, largely unaffected by the crisis, unlike demographic growth in Madrid or Barcelona which collapsed with the economic crisis, so there is demand for not only office but also commercial, residential, and, this being Paris, cultural surfaces.

In fact currently there is a residential crisis in Paris: about 37,000 residential units (i.e. about 300,000 m²/3.3 million sq ft of residential floor space) is being built in Greater Paris every year, but this is not enough to accommodate the population growth. The government says they are going to soften the residential construction rules and reduce the red tape (in particular, legal challenges by NIMBYs against building permits are going to be made harder), in order to allow much more residential developments to take place.

This graph shows the number of residential units (apartments and detached houses) that were built in Greater Paris every year between 1982 and 2009:
[img]http://i39.************/256gr3b.png[/img]

This map shows the arrondissements and suburban municipalities of Greater Paris within which more than 50 residential units were built per year between 2000 and 2010.
- light pink: this municipality/arrondissement had between 50 and 99 residential units built there per year on average between 2000 and 2010
- pink: this municipality/arrondissement had between 100 and 199 residential units built there per year on average between 2000 and 2010
- dark pink: this municipality/arrondissement had 200 or more residential units built there per year on average between 2000 and 2010

[img]http://i42.************/54983q.png[/img]

As can be seen, most of the residential developments in the past 10 years have taken place essentially in the outer arrondissements and the inner suburbs. This is a territory about the same size as Inner London.
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