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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #4841
DeFiBkIlLeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Given the past trend, the inertia of any economy (it's not like London could have switched from an economy based on consumption to an economy based on investment overnight), plus the collapse of the sterling pound in 2008, it's quite unlikely that the curves would be any different now.




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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #4842
Matthieu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR View Post
I'm just asking him to provide proof of his claims, and will take it elsewhere so as not to go off topic here, but he's just ignoring my request..

..and we both know why the thread count goes up around here, it's nothing to do with me visiting it.


Wow!, one sys Admin and one Mod comes calling, has Brisavoine come crying to you already?
No, I actually follow this thread and I'm fed up with kids fighting...
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #4843
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wow, Sao Paulo kicks the shit out of NY
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #4844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clery View Post
So you want to know about big billion euros projects in Paris? Here are those I can think of:
  • Grand Paris Express: 27 bilion euros
  • Lyon-Turin HSR (Paris connexion to Italy): 26 billion euros
  • New line Paris Normandie: 15 billion euros
  • Seine-Arche: 5 billion euros
  • Canal Seine Nord: 4.3 billion euros
  • RER E westbound: 3.7 billion euros
  • Aerotropolis: 3 billion euros
  • CDG Service developments+Satellite S4: 3 billion euros
  • Batignolles developments: 2.7 billion euros
  • CDG Terminal 4: 2.4 billion euros
  • EuropaCity: 2 billion euros
  • Hermitage Plaza: 2 billion euros
  • Forum des Halles: 1 billion euros
  • Tour Phare: 1 billion euros

Happy now?
In 2012 alone (a single year, as opposed to planned investments over 10, 20, or 30 years which he cunningly listed in his post to make the London figures look bigger), 11 billion euros were invested in office real estate in Greater Paris. Source: http://www.economieetsociete.com/Imm...012_a1478.html

The amount invested in residential real estate must have been at least as high. And then there are all other sorts of investments:
- commercial and industrial surfaces
- infrastructures, some of which you listed, some of which you've missed, like the plan to equip the entire Greater Paris and all its residents with optic fiber before 2015
- and not to forget: R&D investments, which may not be as conspicuous as real estate or infrastructure investments, but which are probably even more important to the economy. Ask the Spaniards who splashed out on infrastructures but completely forgot R&D. Paris is well ahead of London in terms of R&D investments, because it has kept an industrial base (especially high-tech and biotech manufacturing).
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #4845
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Hmmm, we could add Saclay and Balargone...
  • Grand Paris Express: 27 bilion euros
  • Lyon-Turin HSR (Paris connexion to Italy): 26 billion euros
  • New line Paris Normandie: 15 billion euros
  • Seine-Arche: 5 billion euros
  • Canal Seine Nord: 4.3 billion euros
  • RER E westbound: 3.7 billion euros
  • Saclay campus development : 3 billion euros
  • Aerotropolis: 3 billion euros
  • CDG Service developments+Satellite S4: 3 billion euros
  • Batignolles developments: 2.7 billion euros
  • CDG Terminal 4: 2.4 billion euros
  • EuropaCity: 2 billion euros
  • Hermitage Plaza: 2 billion euros
  • Forum des Halles: 1 billion euros
  • Tour Phare: 1 billion euros
  • Balargone : 1 billion euros
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:29 PM   #4846
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Paris have not to be red.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:32 PM   #4847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
In 2012 alone (a single year, as opposed to planned investments over 10, 20, or 30 years which he cunningly listed in his post to make the London figures look bigger)
You see the kind of paranoia I'm dealing with here...

It wasn't my list, I didn't compile it, understand?

And lol, just lol, at you trying to make out that all those projects listed in the list Clery posted is somehow just one years worth of infrastructure investment as opposed to a decades worth, or longer.

Thank you for my ROFL moment of the day....

gee, you guys sure must be fast builders to start all that and finish it in a single financial year..
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:34 PM   #4848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR View Post
You see the kind of paranoia I'm dealing with here...

It wasn't my list, I didn't compile it, understand?

And lol, just lol, at you trying to make out that all those projects listed in the list Clery posted is somehow just one years worth of infrastructure investment as opposed to a decades worth, or longer.

Thank you for my ROFL moment of the day....

gee, you guys sure must be fast builders to start all that and finish it in a single financial year..
Could you stop polluting the Paris thread ? Could some mod delete his messages ? Thanks, we do not need another PAris vs London shit.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #4849
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Originally Posted by bbcwallander View Post
You are so wrong, inward investment in London has gone up by around 30% in the last few years - you need to do some real research!
Investment is not just FDI (investments from foreign sources). Investment, unless you're called Monaco, is first and foremost a domestic thing (i.e. domestic actors investing in their domestic economy). So the fact that inward FDIs in London have gone up by 30% is less important than the fact that domestic investments have plummeted due to the severe economic and financial crisis the UK has experienced.

At the end of the day, foreign investors can't save you if your domestic investors are dead.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:37 PM   #4850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR View Post
These are foreign direct investments (FDIs). FDIs are only a small part of the total investments in a given economy.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #4851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Investment is not just FDI (investments from foreign sources). Investment, unless you're called Monaco, is first and foremost a domestic thing (i.e. domestic actors investing in their domestic economy). So the fact that inward FDIs in London have gone up by 30% is less important than the fact that domestic investments have plummeted due to the severe economic and financial crisis the UK has experienced.

At the end of the day, foreign investors can't save you if your domestic investors are dead.
Check the statistics from the Global Cities Investment Monitor 2012, compiled by the Greater Paris Investment Agency and KPMG. Far more valid than your Eurostats data from 2006!
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #4852
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #4853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbcwallander View Post
Check the statistics from the Global Cities Investment Monitor 2012, compiled by the Greater Paris Investment Agency and KPMG. Far more valid than your Eurostats data from 2006!
Wasting your time, he'll only acknowledge figures that fits his narrative and blinkered view.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #4854
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Perhaps we should have another London vs. Paris thread in some obscure corner of the site, then the people who just want to check on the cities project updates won't have to endure all the crap. Anyone who comes in and starts this again can just be redirected to that thread and the rest of us can just ignore it. It never seems to go away, not for very long, so it may as well have it's own thread instead of polluting these ones. I know city vs city threads aren't really tolerated here, but it happens anyway.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:46 PM   #4855
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Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy View Post
Perhaps we should have another London vs. Paris thread.
No need, in the interests of cross channel harmony and all that, I'll leave this thread alone now, I've made my point, even though its been completely ignored.

Bye,bye, au revoir Frenchie's...
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #4856
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Originally Posted by bbcwallander View Post
Check the statistics from the Global Cities Investment Monitor 2012, compiled by the Greater Paris Investment Agency and KPMG.
Once again, these figures are FDIs, which is only a small part of total investment in a given economy.

Only GFCF offers a full view of investment, but it takes time to compute at a regional level. In any case, even if we had the most recent GFCF figures, I'm quite certain they would show investment in Paris still well ahead of London, because a- the sterling pound has lost more than 20% of its value, and b- the UK has experienced a terrible economic crisis since 2008 (if GFCF had suddenly jumped in the UK, you would expect the UK economy to have performed better than the French economy since 2008, which is not exactly what has happened ).
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Old April 28th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #4857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR View Post
No need, in the interests of cross channel harmony and all that, I'll leave this thread alone now, I've made my point, even though its been completely ignored.

Bye,bye, au revoir Frenchie's...
Nan mais t'es pour de vrai toi ?

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Old April 28th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #4858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Once again, these figures are FDIs, which is only a small part of total investment in a given economy.

Only GFCF offers a full view of investment, but it takes time to compute at a regional level. In any case, even if we had the most recent GFCF figures, I'm quite certain they would show investment in Paris still well ahead of London, because a- the sterling pound has lost more than 20% of its value, and b- the UK has experienced a terrible economic crisis since 2008 (if GFCF had suddenly jumped in the UK, you would expect the UK economy to have performed better than the French economy since 2008, which is not exactly what has happened ).
The London economy is very different to the UK economy my friend.

Economists over here are rather glad that we have been unable to devalue our currency, something that Eurozone members have been unable to do, which many economists believe could have helped Greece, Spain, Italy and to a lesser extent France.

By the way the French economy has suffered too, reports over here suggest unemployment in France is higher than in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22301063

Brisavoine i would love to continue what i see as a fair debate, but I'm sure this is annoying other forumers, so perhaps we debate elsewhere?
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Old April 28th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #4859
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Zip it GM, he's gone! You don't want him to come back.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #4860
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The London economy is very different to the UK economy my friend.
Well, as it were, Eurostat provides regional GDP figures up to 2010, and the figures don't show that London's GDP has outperformed Paris's GDP. So it's equally unlikely that London's GFCF could have outperformed Paris's since the start of the crisis.
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