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Old November 20th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #5881
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I think Paris should be more like Berlin, architecturally. It should build more Neotraditional architecture, less of this weird hypermodern Lady Gaga-style architecture.
Couldn't agree more. While Paris certainly gets its fair share of interesting modern architecture, there's way too much blobitecture and crapitecture desperately screaming for attention. Poor, beautiful and once harmonious Paris...

Who needs this fooking cheesy LasVegas-style Pyramid at the exhibition area competing with the grand Eiffel Tower, for instance? Didn't you learn a lesson or two from the Montparnasse desaster, Paris? WTF?

Why not build something that complements the flair and unique character of the European city? Berlin knows how to.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 01:22 AM   #5882
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Couldn't agree more. While Paris certainly gets its fair share of interesting modern architecture, there's way too much blobitecture and crapitecture desperately screaming for attention. Poor, beautiful and once harmonious Paris...

Who needs this fooking cheesy LasVegas-style Pyramid at the exhibition area competing with the grand Eiffel Tower, for instance? Didn't you learn a lesson or two from the Montparnasse desaster, Paris? WTF?

Why not build something that complements the flair and unique character of the European city? Berlin knows how to.
I disagree. At the first place, we wouldn't have Eiffel Tower today, if they had that conservative opinion, or Louvre pyramid, or Grand Boulevards. Modern cities should always try to reinvent themselves and not just live on the old glory, city like Paris must be at the forefront of new and bold ideas. It is true that some of the ideas are very controversial, but time will show. Better a wrong decision than no decision, if they try it's more likely that they'll succeded sometimes.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 03:58 AM   #5883
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^ I agree.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 05:35 AM   #5884
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I disagree. At the first place, we wouldn't have Eiffel Tower today, if they had that conservative opinion, or Louvre pyramid, or Grand Boulevards. Modern cities should always try to reinvent themselves and not just live on the old glory, city like Paris must be at the forefront of new and bold ideas. It is true that some of the ideas are very controversial, but time will show. Better a wrong decision than no decision, if they try it's more likely that they'll succeded sometimes.
You call it "reinvention", I call it "not having an identity". When all your buildings look completely different, you have anomie, which is not a healthy state of being for any group of people. I get that neoliberals believe that, with postmodernism, the metanarrative is dead, but neoliberalism and postmodernism are so last century, IMO.

Paris is showing a real lack of awareness lately. I don't mind innovation, but please develop a style (like Scandinavia has) and stick with it. Don't just endlessly experiment. That just makes you look lost and directionless.

Say what you will about Berlin, but they are at the forefront of what's real and true right now. They know who they are. They're not endlessly grasping at straws. /rant
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Old November 21st, 2013, 08:17 AM   #5885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndic View Post
You call it "reinvention", I call it "not having an identity". When all your buildings look completely different, you have anomie, which is not a healthy state of being for any group of people. I get that neoliberals believe that, with postmodernism, the metanarrative is dead, but neoliberalism and postmodernism are so last century, IMO.

Paris is showing a real lack of awareness lately. I don't mind innovation, but please develop a style (like Scandinavia has) and stick with it. Don't just endlessly experiment. That just makes you look lost and directionless.

Say what you will about Berlin, but they are at the forefront of what's real and true right now. They know who they are. They're not endlessly grasping at straws. /rant
But what for ? In order not to trouble tourists expectations ? There are people living here, diversity and dynanism. I think if 70% of the inner city are hausmanian buildings, it's way enough to satisfy tourists expectations. You maybe wish Paris stays a museum city, or stick to the style, ok, but it does not keep to try something else in addition. Leave the rest a bit of freedom when it concerns architecture initiative. It's all about taste. Like for art. They may change.

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Old November 21st, 2013, 11:12 AM   #5886
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But what for ? In order not to trouble tourists expectations ? There are people living here, diversity and dynanism. I think if 70% of the inner city are hausmanian buildings, it's way enough to satisfy tourists expectations. You maybe wish Paris stays a museum city, or stick to the style, ok, but it does not keep to try something else in addition. Leave the rest a bit of freedom when it concerns architecture initiative. It's all about taste. Like for art. They may change.
PARIS was never a museum city,
who is the ******* who invented this idiotic expression ?

In inner Paris you have the tertiary sector, all the offices buildings,
and the factories are in the suburbs.

samely as in every other big city.

paris museum city is an idiotic expression, a shame ! Doubtless invented by an English citizen.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 11:16 AM   #5887
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opening of a DS WORLD store à Paris. citroen car makers



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Old November 21st, 2013, 07:46 PM   #5888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndic View Post
You call it "reinvention", I call it "not having an identity". When all your buildings look completely different, you have anomie, which is not a healthy state of being for any group of people. I get that neoliberals believe that, with postmodernism, the metanarrative is dead, but neoliberalism and postmodernism are so last century, IMO.

Paris is showing a real lack of awareness lately. I don't mind innovation, but please develop a style (like Scandinavia has) and stick with it. Don't just endlessly experiment. That just makes you look lost and directionless.

Say what you will about Berlin, but they are at the forefront of what's real and true right now. They know who they are. They're not endlessly grasping at straws. /rant

I think you miss all the point. Paris IS the city of visual unity. While hosting numerous architectural style , she is probably the most harmonious city on earth (at least for its size and for it's alpha rank). Most of it's city center (Paris administrative borders) and a large amount of its close suburbs (1st circle which is more or less as dense) is made of architecture from middle ages , renaissance and post modern times. But walking in the street all what you feel is harmony on the colours , on the size of the buildings, on the way streets and perpectives are made.

On the other hand, Berlin never had that uniformity feel as much as Paris. Moreover, the city way deeply destroyed, so she had to reconstruct its identity from A to Z. And that way of thinking is still in your mind, which is quite normal.

I like very much the buildings you showed, as they are very integrated.
I'm not against that kind of architecture, but if you build this , you have to make some modern buildings too, in order not to feel like in Disneyland, but in a city which lives with its time. I don't see why these spirit are opposed as imo, you can build both : it depend on the district and its context.

Paris may sometimes build strange architecture for you , but most of it is outside the borders, as the city center is imo, almost perfect. And most of times the buildings are well integrated, despite being visually new.
Fortunatelly , La Defense was build outside ! and now it's just a beautifull add on, which does not break the city spirit... 1+1 = 2
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:00 AM   #5889
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Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Didn't you learn a lesson or two from the Montparnasse desaster, Paris? WTF?
What desaster ?
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 05:23 PM   #5890
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 05:41 PM   #5891
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@ arno-13: agreed, good post.

The damage to Paris' harmonious looks by ambitious large size projects is a vastly imaginary problem IMO. The only large project that I can think of that was a true wound in Paris' urban tissue was Les Halles (the XXth century ones). But even that only affects that exact place, because as the area is extremely densely built-up, you can't see Les Halles if you are outside of that particular square.
Other major projects I can think of are the complex in the Parc de la Villette (so outside of the urban tissue), the Paris - Rive Gauche site with the national library, the architecture school, the Paris VII university etc. (which was previously a former industrial site, so no urban tissue to be harmed there, and the industrial landmarks were preserved and reconverted), or the Jussieu area (the university campus and the Institut du monde arabe, which I find well integrated at street level, and it offers the skyline a modest tower, which you may like or not - I like it).
All of them I consider successful cases and examples of how to keep building while preserving the identity of the city core. BTW that exhibition complex that started the discussion isn't even in the city core, it's right at the city border (Versailles Gate), where classical Paris has already ended and the things that make the area interesting are the variety of modernist buildings, especially art-deco; you only need to take a full-length ride with the T3a to realize that. Saying that it would compete with the Eiffel Tower only shows a lack of knowledge of Parisian geography.

Edit: ah and BTW I like the Montparnasse tower, walking in the neighbourhood around it is one of my favourite walks. Of course its insertion there was traumatic but in time, if there was something to learn from it, it was that a bit of contemporary architecture here and there freshens things up especially in the sense that it helps put older architecture into a fresh light because of contrast. One just must not bring TOO much contrast in because that does change identity - even if not necessarily for the worse, but changing identity is a big issue that must be pondered carefully.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 07:36 PM   #5892
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 08:00 PM   #5893
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enerally global cities are in Anglosaxon countries. Because they have always won any war.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 08:05 PM   #5894
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enerally global cities are in Anglosaxon countries. Because they have always won any war.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:31 PM   #5895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndic View Post
You call it "reinvention", I call it "not having an identity". When all your buildings look completely different, you have anomie, which is not a healthy state of being for any group of people. I get that neoliberals believe that, with postmodernism, the metanarrative is dead, but neoliberalism and postmodernism are so last century, IMO.

Paris is showing a real lack of awareness lately. I don't mind innovation, but please develop a style (like Scandinavia has) and stick with it. Don't just endlessly experiment. That just makes you look lost and directionless.

Say what you will about Berlin, but they are at the forefront of what's real and true right now. They know who they are. They're not endlessly grasping at straws. /rant
I support this message!

Innovation and experimentation are not goals in themselves. They are a means to an end. It's much better to use an old good design than a new bad one.

I really like your term "Lady Gaga buildings". It's spot on. Lady Gaga just innovates for the sake of it and as a result it has no meaning and it's pointless and ugly.

And experiments & innovations don't have to be these grand, attention-seeking gestures. They can be very subtle. They can be refinements which are barely noticeable. Making a small improvement is a huge achievement. I think a lot of Parisian modern architecture is just not refined enough. It's an explosion of ambition, but I think a lot of it will fail and be demolished in the future.

I also agree that Paris is stuck in the last century philosophically. Postmodernism is dead but I think Parisians will struggle to acknowledge that because they manufactured it and sold it to the world.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 09:42 AM   #5896
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I think innovation and experimentations could be goals in themselves, lady gaga is a lab for fashion innovation, not everything is good (far from that) but she'll bring something for fashion and inspire those who are stucked with their lack of ideas. So for Paris, I want the finest architecture possible for the core of the city, slight innovation for classy buildings. But it does not keep we have some labs just to innovate and experiment. What is the problem of having crazy buildings in some areas as soon as they don't interfere with the center city identity/consistency ?
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Old November 24th, 2013, 04:31 AM   #5897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arno-13 View Post
I think you miss all the point. Paris IS the city of visual unity. While hosting numerous architectural style , she is probably the most harmonious city on earth (at least for its size and for it's alpha rank). Most of it's city center (Paris administrative borders) and a large amount of its close suburbs (1st circle which is more or less as dense) is made of architecture from middle ages , renaissance and post modern times. But walking in the street all what you feel is harmony on the colours , on the size of the buildings, on the way streets and perpectives are made.

On the other hand, Berlin never had that uniformity feel as much as Paris. Moreover, the city way deeply destroyed, so she had to reconstruct its identity from A to Z. And that way of thinking is still in your mind, which is quite normal.

I like very much the buildings you showed, as they are very integrated.
I'm not against that kind of architecture, but if you build this , you have to make some modern buildings too, in order not to feel like in Disneyland, but in a city which lives with its time. I don't see why these spirit are opposed as imo, you can build both : it depend on the district and its context.

Paris may sometimes build strange architecture for you , but most of it is outside the borders, as the city center is imo, almost perfect. And most of times the buildings are well integrated, despite being visually new.
Fortunatelly , La Defense was build outside ! and now it's just a beautifull add on, which does not break the city spirit... 1+1 = 2
Totally agree.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 05:06 AM   #5898
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Paris should be careful not to demolish significant amounts of historic buildings. Parisians should be aware of the great value of an intact and cohesive historic environment and not take it for granted, even though they may wanna see something fresh instead. In Vienna they are demolishing a lot of historic buildings and gradually it's starting to show. I also agree though that Paris does not need new traditional architecture, it's got enough of that. Berlin, however, doesn't and so it's good that both traditional and modern architecture get's built there.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 09:52 AM   #5899
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Paris should be careful not to demolish significant amounts of historic buildings. Parisians should be aware of the great value of an intact and cohesive historic environment and not take it for granted
Fully agree but don't worry for that. Parisians are aware......Historicals, hausmanianns, divers old good looking buildings are untouchable. What is worrying me is that for most cases, even the old bad looking buildings are not touchable cause of some group of people against the renewal. Paris is on one extrem side, but not the one you all seem to think it is.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 10:13 AM   #5900
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Relax guys,

All of those Hausmanian and beautiful buildings are protected, they will never be destroyed. Almost all of those modern projects that you see over here are never located in those historical neighborhoods, they are usually just outside.

I think there is misconception in location here. Paris is quite big, the historical center represents maybe only 20/25% of the dense area of Paris, there's plenty of room for experimentation in the rest!

I'm not saying that there are not any "modern and controversial" buildings in the historical center been built up, but they usually replace another 70's ugly building rather than a beautiful Hausmanian masterpiece.
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