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Old January 31st, 2007, 07:39 PM   #741
Matthieu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
Some people define Central Paris as what is inside the railway stations termini circle and not the whole of Paris City territory. Well it is arguable.
and not so relevant anyway
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Old January 31st, 2007, 11:41 PM   #742
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good jobs
but i hope these projects will be not near away from the "tower and gate"
so that the old face of paris can be saved
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Old February 1st, 2007, 01:15 PM   #743
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those towers would be built quite far from the city's old historical centre, don't worry
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Old February 1st, 2007, 02:33 PM   #744
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These skyscrapers would be built about 2 km. (1.5 miles) from the medieval center of Paris, so it's really not that far. The 200-meter tower at Porte de Bercy would be exactly at the same distance from Notre Dame cathedral as the Eiffel Tower is from Notre Dame.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 02:54 PM   #745
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Personally, I'm not really convinced that very tall towers are needed inside the city proper of Paris.

Well, I could accept towers reaching 200 meters near the Quai d'Ivry knowing that it's not so far from the residential highrise buildings of Chinatown. It could improve the perception of the quality of the whole neighbourhood. I could also accept towers reaching 150 meters near the Porte de la Chapelle knowing that there are some other residential towers nearby. However, frankly, there is no highrise near Porte de Bercy. Why putting a 200 meter-tower over there ? I don't like lone skyscrapers, and this could only become a Tour Montparnasse version 2.0.

Frankly, we have a terrific cluster in La Défense. Its location is great. Granted, the esplanade makes the whole environment slightly artificial but this will be improved in the future. For which damn' reason is it that necessary to build skyscrapers inside the City ? I fail to understand it. I'm all open to the idea consisting in improving current clusters inside the city of Paris, but creating lone towers here or there... I'm totally against it.

By the way, this is not simply a problem for the City of Paris. Some developments in the inner suburbs (such as those planned in Levallois, Boulogne or even Issy) seriously risk to create various lone towers here or there which would bring absolutely nothing to the overall skyline of Paris (or of their specific neighbourhoods).

Obviously, there are many French forumers who enjoy messy skyline, and I fully understand that they love London ro Tokyo because of this. But Paris, just like NYC, is a more ordinated city. The urban planning in Paris, especially in the city proper, has been very deeply thought out. Everything cannot be made for the sake of variety.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 05:13 PM   #746
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Building isolated and well designed skyscrapers could make people less stressed about scrapers and help further devellopment... as long as the Eiffel Tower, the Invalides, the Pantheon and Arc de Triomphe remain well visible.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 06:35 PM   #747
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I understand metropolitain point of view but building scrapers at porte d'ivry and porte de bercy and porte de la chapelle is a good idea, because it makes an impressive vision when entering paris.

currently when you arrive you see a see of (although very impressive because massive) commieblocks towers in both porte d'ivry/bercy and chapelle. it would better with one modern tower topping the ugly towers.

btw porte de bercy is very close to the towers of la grande bibliotheque so it would not be lonely.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 06:57 PM   #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
Building isolated and well designed skyscrapers could make people less stressed about scrapers and help further devellopment... as long as the Eiffel Tower, the Invalides, the Pantheon and Arc de Triomphe remain well visible.
Tour Montparnasse, Hotel Concorde Lafayette or Tour Pleyel are all fine example about this.

Well more seriously speaking, the reason why French people dislike skyscrapers isn't because they are badly designed, but because of the way our architects imagine their environment. More specifically, the fact that nearly all towers in France have been considered as "a way to liberate free space at ground level". As a result, nearly all towers in France are surrounded by freaky empty space with absolutely nothing around.

Free space liberated is counter-productive if we have absolutely no idea about how using it. Even in the case we have an idea, such as with the pagodas in the middle of the Olympiades esplanade, we realize that it is not the place where people are naturally going. Indeed, people go shopping on the streets and avenues, not in the pagodas. Building along avenues and streets is not something which should be considered as evil. It is natural. Streets and avenues rules ! (Especially in a city such as Paris where we have sincerly no reason to be ashamed of our avenues)

Anyway, there is a single place in Paris where we have built highrise buildings properly, it is rue Georges Pitard :



Okay, the picture sucks but you get the idea. There's absolutely no reason that, at street level, we should notice if we are nearby a skyscraper or a lower building. That's exactly this feeling which makes NYC or Chicago so great. And on rue Georges Pitard, if we don't look up, we don't even notice there are skyscrapers there. I've never heard anyone complaining about those towers. They are not pretty, but at least they are well-integrated in their environment.

According to what I can see of French projects a bit everywhere, this isn't something which is completely understood yet in France. There are improvements though, but some architects such as Portzamparc remains a bit reluctant. Obviously, there are still some people (which is already too many), who still believe that it's terrific to have nothing around a skyscraper. That's what we see in La Défense, with the Tour Montparnasse, in Beagurenelle, with the Tour Pleyel, or the Tours Mercuriales. And that's what Parisians feel as disturbing.

To sum it up : Skyscrapers should be built as an element which is fully part of its urban environment, not as an exterior element which is artificially put in the middle of the urban environment with absolutely no connexion with it.

Last edited by Metropolitan; February 4th, 2007 at 02:55 AM.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 07:37 PM   #749
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But anyway, even if I really believe that the reason why French people dislike towers is because of their lack of integration and not because of their design, this is getting a bit off-topic and I'm sorry about it.

Actually, the new projects in the city proper could be well-integrated to their environment. And indeed, if we have to build skyscrapers in the city proper, the best locations are certainly Porte de la Chapelle and Quai d'Ivry. I am more skeptic when it goes about Porte de Bercy though.

I won't repeat what I've already said above on this page, but I'm really skeptic towards the idea that Porte de Bercy could be a great location for a 200 meter-tall tower, knowing that there's currently nothing tall around. Probably Quai d'Ivry would fit better.

But anyway, let's be honnest. The best location to build towers above 200 meters in the Paris area remains undoubtedly La Défense.
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Old February 3rd, 2007, 12:33 PM   #750
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We have the same problem in The Netherlands. The problem of bad integration of skyscrapers at ground level, which makes their surroundings somewhat 'unhuman'. But it is getting better now, at least we add more public functions into the buildings at street level, but there is also a design part in it.

And it is just simple to do it, just go to manhattan and see how to do it.
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Old February 6th, 2007, 12:08 PM   #751
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can somebody show at a google map the skyskscrapers?
i need the location of each one.

the big ones are easy
But i don't know the location of for example
Tour Adria,
Tour Ariane,
136 m : Tour Défense 2000, La Défense (Puteaux)
130 m : Tour Descartes (aka Tour IBM), La Défense (Courbevoie)
128 m : Tour Les Poissons, La Défense (Courbevoie)
126 m : Tour France, La Défense (Puteaux)
122 m : Tour Europlaza (ex/former Tour Septentrion), La Défense (Courbevoie)
120 m : Tour Franklin, La Défense (Puteaux)
119 m : Tour PB2 (aka Tour Winterthur), La Défense (Puteaux)
119 m : Tour Sequoia (aka Tour Bull), La Défense (Puteaux)
117 m : Tour Michelet (aka Tour Total), La Défense (Puteaux)
117 m : Tour CB16 (aka Tour EDF-GDF), La Défense (Courbevoie)
113 m : Tour Neptune, La Défense (Courbevoie)
113 m : Préfecture des Hauts-de-Seine, Nanterre
110 m : Grande Arche, La Défense (Puteaux)
110 m : Tour Manhattan, La Défense (Courbevoie)
110 m : Tour Aurore, La Défense (Courbevoie)
109 m : Tour Initiale (aka Tour Nobel), La Défense (Courbevoie)
109 m : Tour Eve, La Défense (Puteaux)
105 m : Tours Aillaud 1 (aka "Tours Nuages 1"), Nanterre
105 m : Tours Aillaud 2 (aka "Tours Nuages 2"), Nanterre
104 m : Tour Gambetta, La Défense (Courbevoie)
103 m : Tour Cèdre, La Défense (Courbevoie)
100 m : Tour Athena (aka Tour PFA), La Défense (Puteaux)
99 m : Tour AIG, La Défense (Courbevoie)
99 m : Tour Europe, La Défense (Courbevoie)
97 m : Tour Prisma (aka Tour Kvaener), La Défense (Courbevoie)
95 m : Tour Crédit Lyonnais, La Défense (Puteaux)
95 m : Tour Atlantique, La Défense (Puteaux)
94 m : Tour Pascal A, La Défense (Puteaux)
90 m : Tour La Pacific (aka Tour Usinor), La Défense (Puteaux)
81 m : Tour Voltaire A, La Défense (Puteaux)
76 m : Hôtel du Département, Nanterre
69 m : Hôtel Sofitel Danton, La Défense (Courbevoie)

and the location of the proposed one?

thanks
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Old February 6th, 2007, 09:17 PM   #752
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You can find several towers for La Defense territory on this web site. On the "Visite Guidée".
http://www.ladefense.fr/index.php
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Old February 6th, 2007, 10:51 PM   #753
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wow
thanks

but can somebody show me also the location of the new towers?

thanks
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Old February 7th, 2007, 12:09 AM   #754
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Yes
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Old February 7th, 2007, 01:37 AM   #755
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thanks

i just wanted to make the cluster
unfortunately "pilot73" made only some buildings....

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IWBF Champions Cup (5): 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013, 2014
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EJU Golden League (1): 2014
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Old February 7th, 2007, 01:58 AM   #756
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International titles of Galatasaray SK
UEFA Europa League (1): 2000
UEFA Super Cup (1): 2000

ULEB Eurocup (1): 2016

FIBA EuroLeague Women (1): 2014
FIBA EuroCup Women (1): 2009

IWBF Champions Cup (5): 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013, 2014
IWBF André Vergauwen Cup (1): 2017
IWBF Intercontinental Cup (4): 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012

EJU Golden League (1): 2014
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Old February 7th, 2007, 06:33 PM   #757
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[EDIT] - Works for the renovation and heightening of AXA have started.
Actually, the cladding being removed seems to only be a test according to some sources. Sorry for the mistake. The date of delivery seems to still be 2010 though. [/EDIT]

La Défense has now three towers above 150 meters under construction :
  • T1 (185 m)
  • Granite (181 m)
  • AXA (225 m)

Considering that the twin towers (2x165 m) in Levallois-Perret will start this summer, we will soon have no less than 5 towers above 150 meters under construction in Paris.

I don't think we've already seen such an important highrise activity in Paris before. Especially that in a couple of years should begin the construction of two other towers above 300 meters !


Last edited by Metropolitan; February 8th, 2007 at 01:22 AM.
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Old February 7th, 2007, 07:44 PM   #758
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Quote:
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Works for the renovation and heightening of AXA has started.

That's fantastic news, how about the Meridien hotel (next to AXA)?
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Old February 8th, 2007, 01:26 AM   #759
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Actually, elements of the cladding being removed seems to only be a test according to some sources. Sorry for the mistake. The same sources were saying that nothing consequent has to be expected untill this summer. The date of delivery seems to still be 2010.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 05:51 PM   #760
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Scoop !
New tower 200m+ in project in La Defense !

Victim will be Tour Aurore , 1974 , 110m , which will be demolished




renders and more news to come !

So , Actual Situation of LDF :

In Construction
Tour T1 , 185m , open end 2007
Tour Granite , 184m , open beginning 2008

In Project
Tour Phare , 300m , Construction 2009 . Built 2012
Tour Generali , 318m ,Construction 2008 . Built 2011
New Tour Aurore , 200m+(final height not known yet) , Construction ?? . Built ??
Tour Majuga, 180m ,Construction ?? . Built ??
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