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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:39 AM   #1461
steph35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel
instead of concentrating on style and contextualization in a European CBD
the label HQE is an element of the context in european CBD, not necessary for the far east emerging markets, here is a difference...
i find that this tower have "style", hmmm... "neo-euro-gothique" ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel
just a pale copy of all those average buildings built accross the globe right now.
could you show me the original buildings that have been copied by the generali project, please.
PS : minimum two, because "buildings"
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Old November 18th, 2007, 04:24 AM   #1462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy View Post
Cyril is entitled to an opinion.

But Cyril, you probably should give reasons why you think it's crap. I try to do so everytime I comment on something I dislike now.

Well, just my humble opinion
Newcastle, you haven't been following events on the French forum apparently. Cyril is the perpetual moaner, and I know many French forumers who are sick and tired of his attitude now, even moderator JP from what I've read. His behavior is sometimes positive, like when he contributes with information and articles, sometimes hyper enthusiastic, and then sometimes hyper negative, for no reason, and bordering on trollism. A bit of a bipolar cyclothymic personality here.

In this case the rendering posted by Minato Ku was nothing new, it's just a larger version of a bad quality rendering that was revealed a year ago already, and for no reason Cyril goes on with his hyper negative comment, without any substance or reasoning, as if he hadn't seen this rendering already many times, as if this rendering wasn't already commented over and over last year. So what's his point?
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Old November 18th, 2007, 04:37 AM   #1463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
Remember a few years back my fellow french forumers when you were criticizing british forumers for showing shiny renderings and no proper building under construction in flesh, minimizing London dynamism, it looks like it's your turn now! .
Uh??

New Axa Tower (240m) : under construction







Granite Tower (184m) : under construction







T1 Tower (187m) : under construction







And then next year some of the other skyscrapers should start construction, such as Majunga according to the latest news, and even possibly Gan Tower (as incredible as it seems). You're spending so much time on the London threads Manuel old chap, you're out of touch with what's going on in La Défense. I'll update the general list soon.

Last edited by brisavoine; November 18th, 2007 at 04:55 AM.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 07:18 AM   #1464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy View Post
Cyril is entitled to an opinion. If you are going to try and discredit it, actually give reasons why you disagree, instead of insulting grammer/articulation etc... That's what this forum is about, DEBATING architecture. Say why you think it is great. Let other people say why they think it is crap. And talk to eachother about your reasons.

But Cyril, you probably should give reasons why you think it's crap. I try to do so everytime I comment on something I dislike now.

Well, just my humble opinion
Debating? Give reasons? Instead of insulting? So what do you think of stating "this is crap" without a single mere explanation (and using a word inappropriate on an architecture forum)?

By the way Manuel: what is a European CBD style? Does it even exist? Until now LD was only boxes...is this the European style? Funny because neither London nor Frankfurt have such a characteristic...

Last edited by Karakuri; November 18th, 2007 at 11:39 AM.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 10:44 AM   #1465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
Maybe Cyril thinks that this tower is gimicking what's being built in emerging markets in the far east instead of concentrating on style and contextualization in a European CBD? This tower screams look at me when there's nothing interesting to see.

I find the design of this tower very clumsy, neither bold nor original, just a pale copy of all those average buildings built accross the globe right now.

The summit of the tower is particularly badly treated, almost as if it were done by a Z-list architect.

The statement made by the wind turbine is so obvious and plain.

The crossbracing envelope, although very common now, is the only thing that enhances its design.


This one and Majunga are the worst of the proposals revealed for La Defense.
Definitely..I could not put it better
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Old November 18th, 2007, 11:46 AM   #1466
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T1 and Granite were proposed before the new LD plans. They are almost finished. I was not counting them.
Axa is a timid version of Bishopsgate tower and the defunct Parhaven tower in Rotterdam. I'm waiting for the cladding to judge it. But by the look of it...it looks pale...

This is very important in LD as the cladding is often decisive as cheapo materials ara often used.

@Karakuri
The existence of a European CBD type has been the subject of lenghty debate in the french forum in the past with no real consensus between forumers...it is more a point of view than a scientific category. LD never was a reference. LD and CW are more hybrid types, ex nihilo CBDs.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 11:48 AM   #1467
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I agree with Cyril and Manuel on Generali. And Majunga is worse according to me
That said I dont think they will ruin La Défense renewal. LD is such a dense cluster of towers that a bad design is not necessarily a disaster for the skyline in a whole, or the feeling a pedestrian may have of the business district. And I still prefer Generali to the old little bland box it will replace: at least the cladding will look more fashionable, and it will be taller.

About the other proposals, CB31, Gan's modification and Air2 are classy, sober, tall and elegant projects: they are not going to change our vision of skyscrapers, but they will fill up nicely LD's landscape, and really improve the currently boxy and thickset buildings they are to replace. And I find their design to be more interesting and creative than many projects around the world.

Then there is Phare whose bold statement will be a keystone for LD's renewal: something completely new, so different from what is usually accepted about skyscrapers, wrapped into a highly technological cladding...

The other proposals are too uncertain (PB22, D2). Even the design and the architects are not finalized.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 11:57 AM   #1468
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I have another question regarding the completion date of all this tower proposals.

As 2010-2012 looks to be the most quoted time bracket, don't you think that it may not be possible to accomodate this amount of office space in such a short period of time?

2010-2015/17 may be be more reasonnable? In the past LD was known for its continuous expansion in a very progressive manner not in stop-start way such as CW or the City.

LD actors, developers etc, are known to be very cautious (with good results as far as office space release Vs rent is concerned). Dont you think LD plans are more a PR trick than a big and brutal expansion plan?
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Old November 18th, 2007, 12:20 PM   #1469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Cyril is the perpetual moaner, and I know many French forumers who are sick and tired of his attitude now, even moderator JP from what I've read. His behavior is sometimes positive, like when he contributes with information and articles, sometimes hyper enthusiastic, and then sometimes hyper negative, for no reason, and bordering on trollism. A bit of a bipolar cyclothymic personality here.
well, for my defence, I'm always negative about the same projects (T1, generali), I don't change my mind constantly about thoses projects.
And it's good to be either negative or positive about differents things. Life is not just black or white, 0 or 1, it's not binary.
Moreover, I just don't like to be run down in this international part of the forums by a forumer, you Brisavoine, that has been brigged so many times and who just likes to behave like a PR-wanna be, giving loads of figures and items of informations that go beyond reality many times. So I really think you should think twince before denigrating moderators here because you can't do it on the French forums. Or else, next word pertaining to you might be BAN. Have a nice Sunday
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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:53 PM   #1470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
Or else, next word pertaining to you might be BAN.
Oh, I'm really scared Cyril. You're a perfect democrat, aren't you.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 04:20 PM   #1471
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To be clear Paris has one of most beautiful CBD in the world : Paris QCA located around the Opera and the Champs Elysee with over 400,000 employements.

It is not obvious but many buildings inside this picture was build between the 70's and 2000's
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Old November 19th, 2007, 12:27 PM   #1472
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Also interestingly, that helicopter on the right is a French Navy Lynx.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 02:00 PM   #1473
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I do not appreciate the argument "far east style". It sound pretty arrogant from occident. Plus many of the most iconic far east structures are built by american or european architects...so...

For now, Generali as object is not very clever. There is too many references. This tower wants to be a skyscraper being crowned with a spire, it wants to be something gothic like a belfry, it wants to be something "green" copying Hypergreen, it want to be ecofriendly with garden on every storey like Swiss Re... it's a mix of sucesses from many towers. That patchwork is not very elegant. We are still waiting from high building something like a signature, Valode et Pistre have not yet any proper styl. So they used the best recipes from everywhere. The result is for now clumsy.

Generali in its context may be read differently. It densifies la Defense and it gives a pinacle. The tower looks much more elegant with the new Axa tower in front of. Both makes an interesting ensemble of leaning lines.

Plus we did not have any good renders to make it more sexy...

(Personnaly I'm not waiting for something with this project)


@Brisavoine
Je suis ta référence quand ça te sert tiens... démarche vraiment sympathique...
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Old November 20th, 2007, 11:26 AM   #1474
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Can someone answer that?

I have another question regarding the completion date of all this tower proposals.

As 2010-2012 looks to be the most quoted time bracket, don't you think that it may not be possible to accomodate this amount of office space in such a short period of time?

2010-2015/17 may be be more reasonnable? In the past LD was known for its continuous expansion in a very progressive manner not in stop-start way such as CW or the City.

LD actors, developers etc, are known to be very cautious (with good results as far as office space release Vs rent is concerned).
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Old November 20th, 2007, 01:11 PM   #1475
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No idea. The first question is not to accomodate this amount of office, but to ask if it is allowed to build it regarding the amount fixed by the Plan de Relance...

You have also to think most of those projects are replacing old one (Aurore=>Air², Iris=>Generali, Gan, Axa, Carpe Diem, etc...). You can imagine a project including a new vision of what a skyscrapers should be. And some space won't be for offices...for sure, not a lot...
I'm not interested in those calculation and statistics, but I think the amount of office space proposed is probably not so higher as we think and it is probably not so far from what we did before. That's an element of my vision. I do not know if it is totally true, maybe someone could answer much more better than I do.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 09:14 PM   #1476
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You mean the office space proposed is regulated by EPAD? and was it in the past?
What I have noticed and you confirm that is the not so big development pipeline proposed. The figures given are not much more than what we've seen in the last 2 decades or so.

Yeah forgot that part of it is reconstruction. The net gain will be lower, ok. But do you EPAD would be unwise enough to set the completion date of many of these buildings in the 2010-2012 time bracket? It looks weird from my point of view...

Que de questions!!!
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Old November 21st, 2007, 03:04 AM   #1477
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I don't think the EPAD is that "unwise".

1st thing to know, is that when the EPAD says "2010-2012", they mean "2010-2014 at least". Most of these projects are likely to be a little late except Axa and maybe Gan, since this is just adding a few storeys on top of existing buildings. This is nothing unusual for projects this size to be late though.
And btw, I don't think the date of completion is set by the EPAD. they allow investors to build, they don't force them.

2nd thing to know is that their main objective, I think, was to incite investors to replace obsolete buildings, not to double the size of the district. They have to find a way to bring Eole to LD before they can resume a faster growth.

Now, a few figures : between 2000 and 2007, there was...I guess about 600k totally new square meters I can think of (counting the Faubourgs de l'Arche, so CD, EDF, Adria, Granite, T1, Def Plaza, Exaltis, CBX, triangle de l'arche, guynemer...) and I guess at least 200k m² of restructurations (CB16, Opus12, Ariane, Vista...).

Now, let's talk about the 2008-2014 period. You have to add up Phare, Generali, New Gan, New Axa, Air², D² , Carpe Diem and Majunga to reach 600k square meters, and almost a half of this space already exists and will be replaced. So the growth is not that crazy, and I doubt the vacancy rate will rise above 10%.
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Old November 21st, 2007, 09:03 AM   #1478
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Merci Phil

just another thing, do you think they can limit the amount of office space u/c or do they rely totally on the self regulation of the property industry?



Quote:
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I don't think the EPAD is that "unwise".

1st thing to know, is that when the EPAD says "2010-2012", they mean "2010-2014 at least". Most of these projects are likely to be a little late except Axa and maybe Gan, since this is just adding a few storeys on top of existing buildings. This is nothing unusual for projects this size to be late though.
And btw, I don't think the date of completion is set by the EPAD. they allow investors to build, they don't force them.

2nd thing to know is that their main objective, I think, was to incite investors to replace obsolete buildings, not to double the size of the district. They have to find a way to bring Eole to LD before they can resume a faster growth.

Now, a few figures : between 2000 and 2007, there was...I guess about 600k totally new square meters I can think of (counting the Faubourgs de l'Arche, so CD, EDF, Adria, Granite, T1, Def Plaza, Exaltis, CBX, triangle de l'arche, guynemer...) and I guess at least 200k m² of restructurations (CB16, Opus12, Ariane, Vista...).

Now, let's talk about the 2008-2014 period. You have to add up Phare, Generali, New Gan, New Axa, Air², D² , Carpe Diem and Majunga to reach 600k square meters, and almost a half of this space already exists and will be replaced. So the growth is not that crazy, and I doubt the vacancy rate will rise above 10%.
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Old November 21st, 2007, 08:14 PM   #1479
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You're welcome.
I think that once the permit is granted, they'll rely on the self regulation of the industry, but that's just my guess, in fact that wouldn't be the 1st time, If I remember correctly, T1 (at least I think it was T1)was slightly postponed by the investor himself to be completed in a more favorable timeframe. I have no doubt other investors would take the same decision if they thought it would save them money if they started construction 6 months later. I don't see them all rushing at the same time to end up with 6 or 7 empty towers. But then, as I said, this is just my guess.

Last edited by Phil; November 21st, 2007 at 08:29 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2007, 11:01 PM   #1480
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Ok then, the planning authorities play the same role here than elsewhere as far as office space regulation is concerned. I guess I agree with you on the timescale issue.
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